Squadron Supreme #15

[XPac]

They are an homage team of the JLA. It's difficult to see them as C or D listers, even if the analogs keep changing.

Honestly I think the fact that they're JLA rip offs make it easier to see tham as C listers.

[Michael Watkins]

Honestly I think the fact that they're JLA rip offs make it easier to see tham as C listers.

do you feel that way about Deadpool?

[jackolover]

he would find a niche if someone would write him properly. Sentry is Marvel's Superman. Hyperion is a team beater who is routinely used as an antagonist. I had hoped that they were going to use this book to elevate him/flesh him out. they only killed Namor to set up him joining. his role in the incursions, they had to clear the air; first. Zarda is the strongest character; story-wise.

If Namor joined the SS (I did not know that) then it was a waste that the SS is now disbanded. Having Namor there as the policeman of the Marvel super Heros fits Namors MO a lot. Look at how he reacted against the Illuminatis suggestions on the Hulk and the SHRA. A Namor run SS would have made the Justice League allegory so boss. Since JL VS AV I've been wanting something that takes a higher moral ground than the MU. That sort of gravitus would make the MU fight to justify why it's so grey compared to DC, and that conversation would have merit.

[XPac]

do you feel that way about Deadpool?

No, because he became a much bigger character than the one he supposedly emmulated. When you've got your own movie, you're at LEAST a B lister.

If the Squadron ever gets their own movie, the notion of them being C listers will be pretty decisively squashed too.

[XPac]

If Namor joined the SS (I did not know that) then it was a waste that the SS is now disbanded. Having Namor there as the policeman of the Marvel super Heros fits Namors MO a lot. Look at how he reacted against the Illuminatis suggestions on the Hulk and the SHRA. A Namor run SS would have made the Justice League allegory so boss. Since JL VS AV I've been wanting something that takes a higher moral ground than the MU. That sort of gravitus would make the MU fight to justify why it's so grey compared to DC, and that conversation would have merit.

It definately looked like Namor was set up to be this Leagues Aquaman.

That said I'm not sure Namor is the best suited hero to police the marvel heroes. To his credit he DID show a good deal of practical wisdom in the Illuminti ... but generally speaking I think Namor is more willing to compromise laws and ethics than most heroes. That's not a knock agianst him as there is a legitimate need for heroes like that in the MU... but they make for poor hallway monitors.

[Michael Watkins]

it just occurred to me that Hammond becoming the "human reactor" would make him the Nuke analogue.

[Ken Ashcroft]

It definately looked like Namor was set up to be this Leagues Aquaman.

That said I'm not sure Namor is the best suited hero to police the marvel heroes. To his credit he DID show a good deal of practical wisdom in the Illuminti ... but generally speaking I think Namor is more willing to compromise laws and ethics than most heroes. That's not a knock agianst him as there is a legitimate need for heroes like that in the MU... but they make for poor hallway monitors.

That's probably why he was a member of the Illuminati in the first place.

[jackolover]

It definately looked like Namor was set up to be this Leagues Aquaman.

That said I'm not sure Namor is the best suited hero to police the marvel heroes. To his credit he DID show a good deal of practical wisdom in the Illuminti ... but generally speaking I think Namor is more willing to compromise laws and ethics than most heroes. That's not a knock agianst him as there is a legitimate need for heroes like that in the MU... but they make for poor hallway monitors.

Yeah, Namor is (the old Spiderman movie) Flash Thomson of hallway monitors. He tends to hit first and ask questions later.

I'm not too unhappy if Namor as leader of a Justice League allegory ruffles super hero feathers, because Robinson has made this team of SS into a pretty gray area bunch with not much redeeming features, so who are they to talk, right? It fits the MO of Namor and the team. I would have liked Namors SS smash open Pleasant Hill to tell SHIELD how wrong they were, and then go after Carol Danvers in CWII. I don't know how those fights would have turned out, but the shock on everyone's face to see Namor alive would have been worth the cover price.

[CentralPower]

Yeah I know they said this in the book, but I hope Zarda & this book were mistaken & the real Squadron is still out there, if not Earth-712, a new alternate close to it

I like the old Gruenwald team as much as anybody else. But, when is the last time they showed up in anything good? The Kaminski-written one-shot was 20+ years ago, and was passable set-up. The Gruenwald series (the best appearance of the Squadron) was 30+ years ago.

I am not sure those characters getting killed is much of a loss.

if he isn't a member of the Squadron, he shouldn't have been the main character of any arc. that's my point. Robinson did not sell this as a evolution-of-Jim-Hammond book. this shouldn't have been his vehicle to continue his Invaders stories. it's a cheat.

Writers often give the spot-light to non-title characters. This was no different.

of course not. i fully supported them killing Namor. he had it coming.

It was not just Namor. It was the people of Atlantis, the bystanders in one of the missions that Spectrum was brooding on....

es, it was a real mistake. because the solicits made it seem as if she were going to significantly influence the team. there was a story in that; the original (even sans special abilities) steering the Squadron in a separate direction. it would have been payoff for the sacrifice the original squadron made in saving her life.

Clearly, the solicitation were written with the assumption that "Squadron Supreme" was going to have a longer run. Plans, and other things, change.

i think they'd all be better off being written separately, at this point. since everytime one of these threads is made, some ******** calls them a team of C-Listers. maybe they have more potential as individuals.

Not a single one of these characters could carry a series. (Hyperion and Nighthawk are the most marketable. And, both had series that were cancelled after 6 issues.)

The Squadron does not have consistent recognition even in comic shops. There are people who hit the shop every Wednesday who do not know or care about the Squadron Supreme. That is the definition of C-list characters, if not lower.

Sometimes, minor characters get a push. But, that does not mean the push is going to work.

Calling people assholes for pointing out an obvious fact ("the Squadron Supreme is the Squadron of C-Listers") does not make that fact less true.

who doesn't recognize Hyperion? does Marvel have another justice league pastiche team?

Most people do not. Do you really think that Hyperion has any significant recognition outside of the comic fandom, or even within the fandom?

still got his rear kicked. not to mention that they've altered a lot about hawkeye because, i guess, he hadn't aged well; thematically. most of it was movie-related.

Hawkeye still matters more than the Squadron.

Honestly I think the fact that they're JLA rip offs make it easier to see tham as C listers.

This. ^

do you feel that way about Deadpool?

Deadpool is an example of an obscure character, that had deteriorated in to being a joke, getting a push and the push being successful. It is not a representative example of how things work.

If the Squadron ever gets their own movie, the notion of them being C listers will be pretty decisively squashed too.

Being able to carry a series would also help.

was Hyperion's guilt the impetus? i seem to remember something about a vision of Namor and Warrior Woman teaming up.

The team goal was to stop Zarda. But, Hyperion was burdened by guilt (shown during the time-travle sequences). And, all of the team was having doubts about Nighthawk.

[Of Atlantis]

It definately looked like Namor was set up to be this Leagues Aquaman.

That said I'm not sure Namor is the best suited hero to police the marvel heroes. To his credit he DID show a good deal of practical wisdom in the Illuminti ... but generally speaking I think Namor is more willing to compromise laws and ethics than most heroes. That's not a knock agianst him as there is a legitimate need for heroes like that in the MU... but they make for poor hallway monitors.

Honestly I don't see Namor caring about surface world problems, let alone being part of a group that takes it upon themselves to police them. And that's not even considering the fact that Namor wouldn't even think of allying himself with anyone who tried to destroy Atlantis. Surprised at the amount Robinson had him overlook, though this series has been all over the place from the start. Overall, a waste of Namor and waste of the SS.

[Michael Watkins]

Honestly I don't see Namor caring about surface world problems, let alone being part of a group that takes it upon themselves to police them. And that's not even considering the fact that Namor wouldn't even think of allying himself with anyone who tried to destroy Atlantis. Surprised at the amount Robinson had him overlook, though this series has been all over the place from the start. Overall, a waste of Namor and waste of the SS.

he aligns with his enemies all of the time. do you not read comics?

[Of Atlantis]

he aligns with his enemies all of the time. do you not read comics?

Do you not acknowledge context?

Allying himself with those who JUST tried to destroy Atlantis in order to police the surface world makes zero sense.

[Michael Watkins]

I like the old Gruenwald team as much as anybody else.

I've seen no evidence of this. you're doing alright as a troll, though.

I am not sure those characters getting killed is much of a loss.

^see my point?

Writers often give the spot-light to non-title characters. This was no different.

and what if I don't agree with other writers doing it?

It was not just Namor. It was the people of Atlantis, the bystanders in one of the missions that Spectrum was brooding on....

eye for an eye would require them killing his people, too. but they didn't do that. for contrast, Namor flooded all of wakanda because of T'challa harboring the Avengers.

Clearly, the solicitation were written with the assumption that "Squadron Supreme" was going to have a longer run. Plans, and other things, change.

you don't say

Not a single one of these characters could carry a series. (Hyperion and Nighthawk are the most marketable. And, both had series that were cancelled after 6 issues.)

that's all just opinion. the success of a series is always a combination of factors. some that can be controlled (the writer, the artist, the direction). and some that can't be (what's currently popular, how crowded is the field, what creative teams are available). Nighthawk and Hyperion have the same potential as Moon Knight or Nova. all it takes is the right writer, artist, and opportunity. can you say that their series wouldn't have lasted longer, if the main series hadn't been so unpopular? what if Nighthawk's book was a solo investigation into the alien threat? what if Spectrum went gunning for the Illuminati in a solo title? it's quite arrogant to just dismiss the characters outright.

The Squadron does not have consistent recognition even in comic shops.

maybe in your comic shop.

Calling people assholes for pointing out an obvious fact ("the Squadron Supreme is the Squadron of C-Listers") does not make that fact less true.

that's not a fact. and you're not quoting me.

Most people do not. Do you really think that Hyperion has any significant recognition outside of the comic fandom, or even within the fandom?

to the extent that people know that Marvel has a version of Superman, yes. google "Hyperion vs battle." the character is quite prolific. before I even knew of the Squadron, I knew of Hyperion snorting the exile member, Holocaust, like a line of coke. and JMS' supreme power run is highly regarded.

Hawkeye still matters more than the Squadron.

he's the movie character that they are most likely to sacrifice. they retained almost none of his comic book background. and they immediately altered the comic book character to align with the movies. they also gave his title to a teenager. currently, I don't think that he matters any more than the Squadron. as I mentioned, he just jobbed to Nighthawk; in Avengers Occupy. that's where he is, popularity-wise.

Deadpool is an example of an obscure character, that had deteriorated in to being a joke, getting a push and the push being successful. It is not a representative example of how things work.

what's a representative example of "how things work?"

The team goal was to stop Zarda. But, Hyperion was burdened by guilt (shown during the time-travle sequences). And, all of the team was having doubts about Nighthawk.

when it was convenient. they were all very much on the same side when they killed Namor. and that wasn't at Nighthawk's direction. they occasionally wondered where he was (because he has a life outside of the team). but Blur didn't doubt him until Hammond was hurt (which is bizarre since he had no problem fighting the Avengers). I don't see where Spectrum ever doubted him; always having an agenda of her own. Thundra was never on his side. it's really unclear why she was even around; other than to half-heartedly flirt with Hyperion. and Hyperion's moral compass was all over the map. he was forced to be guilty because Spectrum wasn't. there had to be someone who made it into the past who might agree to aid Namor. by the time the doubts were vocalized in Nighthawk's presence, he had already met with Ulysses/didn't trust Hyperion. SHIELD's intervention was irrelevant to the schism.

[Michael Watkins]

Do you not acknowledge context?

Allying himself with those who JUST tried to destroy Atlantis in order to police the surface world makes zero sense.

he said that he agreed with their mission state. they were acting as the Invaders or Illuminati might have. it's not about policing anyone. the police aren't vigilantes. so back to that context, allying with a team like the Squadron makes perfect sense for Namor. they act like he acts. and Hyperion helped Namor rebuild Atlantis. how's that not an alliance?

[CentralPower]

I've seen no evidence of this. you're doing alright as a troll, though.

Yes, I do like the old "Squadron Supreme" series. It was one of first (if not the first) high-concept series that I read as a kid. As dated as it has become over the years, it was excellent for the time it came out. Gruenwald had a purpose to writing that series beyond "this is Marvel's Justice League". He did things that the DC of the 80s would not have done. (Now, when DC is willing to publish a "Red Son" or "Master Men", there is arguably less need for a Squadron series.)

But, I am not going to endlessly praise characters from a 30+ year old series. Those characters have not been used in anything of merit or consequence for decades. So, it is hard to be upset about them being killed off.

I am not going to pretend that the Squadron characters are terribly significant to the comics industry or the fandom at large. (I will not even discuss the idea of the Squadron having any significant recognition or impact outside of the comics fandom.)

eye for an eye would require them killing his people, too. but they didn't do that. for contrast, Namor flooded all of wakanda because of T'challa harboring the Avengers.

Or, maybe Squadron could have minded their own damned business and let Panther handle that? (Of course, the point is that the Squadron are aggressive about getting involved, with morally grey results. That does not make them good guys.)

can you say that their series wouldn't have lasted longer, if the main series hadn't been so unpopular

A solo character can outlast an unpopular team. But, that did not happen here. The "Hyperion" series was largely apolitical, and it failed. "Nighthawk" was marketed as topical and political. It also failed. Two Squadron-related series failing in a year. If nothing else, the weak main series should have helped the solo series because Squadron fans (all 10 of them) would have flocked in larger numbers to the solo books to escape the malignant bungling of Robinson.

yes. google "Hyperion vs battle." the character is quite prolific.

And, how many people are going to start off with googling "Hyperion vs battle"?

he's the movie character that they are most likely to sacrifice.

Hawkeye still made it in to the movies.

The Squadron made it in to a sub-par cartoon (along with Hawkeye) that is written down to 8-year olds.

what's a representative example of "how things work?"

"Squadron Supreme", "Hyperion", "Nighthawk", "Red Wolf"..... (And, I am saying that as somebody who liked three of those series.)