MIGHTY CAPTAIN MARVEL #1 with spoilers

[Ascended]

By the way, this is also the costume she wore when LEADING the Avengers right after the first Civil War.

All true, and its not a bad argument. But a few points; being an Avenger does not mean you're one of the world's leading heroes by default. This isn't the Justice League, and the Avengers have a long tradition of no-name members even the public doesn't recognize easily. The mainstays like Stark and Rogers? Yeah, people know them. But Justice? Triathlon? Tigra? Smasher? Avengers membership doesn't mean you're automatically on lunchboxes and trading cards. Carol had a certain amount of fame, but even at her height I'd imagine a lot of people barely recognized her or her name.

Secondly, even when the Avengers are under the authority of the UN or American government, as far as I can recall they're still by and large an independent organization (bitchy Federal liaisons aside). Carol is now directly under government supervision with the Alpha Flight program, in direct communication with POTUS, and in charge of hundreds of people, most of them soldiers, not a half dozen other costumed heroes who dress as ridiculously as she did. It's one thing to know your boss used to dress and conduct themselves in a certain way, and quite another to see that sort of dress/behavior reflected on TV today.

I'll agree that a little extra exposition might not have hurt, but I don't think it was needed. A joke from Jessica would have been well placed, but again, its not hard to figure out where Carol is coming from. And I'd rather not see the comic spend as much time getting into her wardrobe choices as we have here.

And no, those college drinking photos didn't reflect my behavior while I was in class, but I wouldn't want them passed around my office all the same. I mean, I dont keep my past...escapades....a closely guarded secret, but I dont need people seeing the evidence at the water cooler either.

[Wiccan]

No, that argument doesn't work either.

First, your college photo presumably does not reflect how you acted while you were in lectures. Carols thigh high boots and bathing suit were her every day work wear as recently as several years ago (comic time).

Second, she served as an Avenger wearing the black costume. By DEFINTION that makes her one of the worlds leading heroes. It would be quite baffling to claim that Carol was unaware that she was, for example, having an impact on young girls as a high profile superhero. Especially when she was serving as one of Stark's chief liutenants in the Avengers Initiative, immediately after Civil War.

If she's embarrassed now by how she dressed then, then take the time and make mention of it as part of her character development. Pointing out, for example, that Luke Cage no longer gets around in a bright yellow disco shirt open to the crotch.

But even is her black bathing suit costume didn't show any cleavage [while being sprayed on] you cannot argue that based on fairly recent issues it did no highlight her rumpus mcgoo. As demonstrated by how high up her waist it is cut in the pic below...

Sure, Carol has not say over how she is dressed. She is a comic character, and artists draw her as they see fit. But you cannot make that meta argument in the book. So something more clever is needed.

By the way, this is also the costume she wore when LEADING the Avengers right after the first Civil War.

It's just not that deep fam. It's really really not.

[brettc1]

All true, and its not a bad argument. But a few points; being an Avenger does not mean you're one of the world's leading heroes by default. This isn't the Justice League, and the Avengers have a long tradition of no-name members even the public doesn't recognize easily. The mainstays like Stark and Rogers? Yeah, people know them. But Justice? Triathlon? Tigra? Smasher? Avengers membership doesn't mean you're automatically on lunchboxes and trading cards. Carol had a certain amount of fame, but even at her height I'd imagine a lot of people barely recognized her or her name.

And yet, in the KSD volume we are led to believe that she is quite well known among the civilian population, yes?

The JLA has its share of less recognizable heroes too, of course [Vibe, Gypsy, etc] but the public exposure after the end of Civil War would certainly mean Carol was well known, and the KSD run builds on and reinforces that idea.

Secondly, even when the Avengers are under the authority of the UN or American government, as far as I can recall they're still by and large an independent organization (bitchy Federal liaisons aside). Carol is now directly under government supervision with the Alpha Flight program, in direct communication with POTUS, and in charge of hundreds of people, most of them soldiers, not a half dozen other costumed heroes who dress as ridiculously as she did. It's one thing to know your boss used to dress and conduct themselves in a certain way, and quite another to see that sort of dress/behavior reflected on TV today.

True, which is the argument Carol should have been making the T'Challa instead of just labelling the costume as outright sexist. By Carol's own wardrobe choice is it not sexist, just not appropriate to engender the appropriate respect in her current role.

I'll agree that a little extra exposition might not have hurt, but I don't think it was needed. A joke from Jessica would have been well placed, but again, its not hard to figure out where Carol is coming from. And I'd rather not see the comic spend as much time getting into her wardrobe choices as we have here.

We will agree to disagree as a matter of personal taste in the writing

And no, those college drinking photos didn't reflect my behavior while I was in class, but I wouldn't want them passed around my office all the same. I mean, I dont keep my past...escapades....a closely guarded secret, but I dont need people seeing the evidence at the water cooler either.

I can certainly understand that.

[Ascended]

And yet, in the KSD volume we are led to believe that she is quite well known among the civilian population, yes?

Were we? It's been a long while since I read KSD's first run. But off the top of my head, I think the only time that subject was ever really broached was at the end when Carol got a parade (or something) and moved into the Statue of Liberty. If Im wrong please feel free to correct me. Like I said, its been ages since I read those issues. But all I remember is "1st Arc: Time travel. 2nd Arc: Monica shows up. 3rd Arc: Carol punches a dinosaur and we start towards Enemy Within."

Are you perhaps thinking of Reed's Ms. Marvel series? I recall that run started off with Carol being determined to reach the level of (earned) popularity she had during House of M.

The JLA has its share of less recognizable heroes too, of course [Vibe, Gypsy, etc]

Of course, but by and large the League consists of the best of the best, while the Avengers typically have a more varied roster. Not a hard and fast rule of course, but speaking in generalities, the two teams seem fairly different in regards to membership.

but the public exposure after the end of Civil War would certainly mean Carol was well known, and the KSD run builds on and reinforces that idea.

I imagine Carol got more attention during that time than she usually had before, but she was still just a lieutenant. Its been so long I honestly dont remember how much the media was focused on her, but I dont recall her getting that much screen time on CNN, you know? But again, correct me if Im forgetting stuff.

True, which is the argument Carol should have been making the T'Challa instead of just labelling the costume as outright sexist. By Carol's own wardrobe choice is it not sexist, just not appropriate to engender the appropriate respect in her current role.

Well, I'll take that as you saying I could have worded the scene better, and take it as a compliment.

As for whether its sexist or not....I dunno. I mean, Carol presumably did sign off on this. All I know is my wife can dress in a sexy way for either her own enjoyment or mine and we can have a night on the town, and its not sexist, but if someone was emailing around pictures of her dressed that way when she didn't approve I'd have a problem with it. But regardless, I dont want to get into the sexist argument here, you know how those turn out.

We will agree to disagree as a matter of personal taste in the writing

Of course. I dont expect everyone to have the same tastes and sensibilities.

[Tiamatty]

And that is what the issue should have covered. Yes I did wear this then but this is why I don't now. That would have been a very clever bit writing and give people with only a passing knowledge of the character some background.

Not just ignore the characters history and hope folks don't notice.

No. No, that should not have been covered. Because taking space away from the shit actually happening in the story in order to explain why the commander of a military organization doesn't want to be shown with her tits hanging out would be silly. Only a handful of people are even going to give even the tiniest shit about it.

A story should not have to hold your hand for every goddamn thing. Comics have finite space. They focus on what matters. What Carol used to wear before she became the commander of a military-style organization does not matter.

[brettc1]

No. No, that should not have been covered. Because taking space away from the shit actually happening in the story in order to explain why the commander of a military organization doesn't want to be shown with her tits hanging out would be silly. Only a handful of people are even going to give even the tiniest shit about it.

A story should not have to hold your hand for every goddamn thing. Comics have finite space. They focus on what matters. What Carol used to wear before she became the commander of a military-style organization does not matter.

More finite now than in the past, which is an ongoing problem. Pick up and read any given issue of the Perez Avengers run and you will start least twice as much storytelling as you do in 95% of any Marvel (or DC) book published in the last year.

We will disagree on Carol's past mattering, even given that she loses her memory almost as often as she loses her boyfriends. For me, of course it matters. Especially if you want to alter people's perceptions of the character who know her from her bathing suit days of recent memory.

Oh and the old hand holding chestnut. That's just lame. It's an excuse wheeled out to rationalize modern writers lack of detail, and believe that readers will take anything presented to them at face value and not question it. That's probably true of some. But what you don't write in a story can be just as significant as what you include, as is the case of glaring plot holes.

The very fact that T'Challa and the other DONT see the actresses cleavage as an issue demands a more in depth response. Perhaps they too remember a Carols less demure uniform and see what she is saying as a contradiction. It's an opportunity to educate as well as entertain, but in this case it goes begging. Maybe we will see it revisited down the track. I hope so.

[Tiamatty]

More finite now than in the past, which is an ongoing problem. Pick up and read any given issue of the Perez Avengers run and you will start least twice as much storytelling as you do in 95% of any Marvel (or DC) book published in the last year.

We will disagree on Carol's past mattering, even given that she loses her memory almost as often as she loses her boyfriends. For me, of course it matters. Especially if you want to alter people's perceptions of the character who know her from her bathing suit days of recent memory.

Oh and the old hand holding chestnut. That's just lame. It's an excuse wheeled out to rationalize modern writers lack of detail, and believe that readers will take anything presented to them at face value and not question it. That's probably true of some. But what you don't write in a story can be just as significant as what you include, as is the case of glaring plot holes.

The very fact that T'Challa and the other DONT see the actresses cleavage as an issue demands a more in depth response. Perhaps they too remember a Carols less demure uniform and see what she is saying as a contradiction. It's an opportunity to educate as well as entertain, but in this case it goes begging. Maybe we will see it revisited down the track. I hope so.

You're demanding the story explain why the commander of a military-style organization doesn't like being depicted with her tits out. Also: It was one criticism among many. Do you want more space dedicated to her reasons for disliking the Cap'n Marvel name, too? Come on. It's a crappy show that's making her look bad and she's pissed that she even has to deal with it. That's literally all that any reader needs to know. That's the important part. Her old costume has nothing to do with any of it. It is completely, absolutely, 100% irrelevant. Slowing down the story to waste time on her explaining why she objects to the cleavage on the show when she used to wear a leotard would be terrible. There's way more important shit for the story to spend time on.

There's no room for the utterly pointless dialogue you want, it would serve no purpose from a story or character perspective, there is no reason at all to include it.

The point of the scene wasn't that Carol's a hypocrite for objecting to the cleavage on the show when she used to wear a leotard. The point of the scene was to introduce the TV show as a sub-plot, and to show that Carol hates the show.

If Stohl had 30 pages to fill instead of 22 . . . she probably still wouldn't have included the dialogue you want because it would still be pointless when the extra pages could be spent on much more useful and interesting material.

[brettc1]

You're demanding the story explain why the commander of a military-style organization doesn't like being depicted with her tits out. Also: It was one criticism among many. Do you want more space dedicated to her reasons for disliking the Cap'n Marvel name, too? Come on. It's a crappy show that's making her look bad and she's pissed that she even has to deal with it. That's literally all that any reader needs to know. That's the important part. Her old costume has nothing to do with any of it. It is completely, absolutely, 100% irrelevant. Slowing down the story to waste time on her explaining why she objects to the cleavage on the show when she used to wear a leotard would be terrible. There's way more important shit for the story to spend time on.

There's no room for the utterly pointless dialogue you want, it would serve no purpose from a story or character perspective, there is no reason at all to include it.

The point of the scene wasn't that Carol's a hypocrite for objecting to the cleavage on the show when she used to wear a leotard. The point of the scene was to introduce the TV show as a sub-plot, and to show that Carol hates the show.

If Stohl had 30 pages to fill instead of 22 . . . she probably still wouldn't have included the dialogue you want because it would still be pointless when the extra pages could be spent on much more useful and interesting material.

Stohl has as many pages as are necessary. 22 pages is ample. That splash of her taking off out of the car could have been re priced to half a page with little to no effect on its dramatic impact.

If you think anything Carol has to say on why the costume isn't a good move, elaborating on why the men making this decision have got it wrong, then that's your perogative I guess. If you don't think it's important enough for a book you have argued is a leading feminist publication to lay out in black and white what the issue really is, again, that is your choice. I think it's worth the time for a woman being put forward as such an important figure to have her opinions heard more than a few throw away lines that are dismissed by Black a Panther.

[Tiamatty]

Stohl has as many pages as are necessary. 22 pages is ample. That splash of her taking off out of the car could have been re priced to half a page with little to no effect on its dramatic impact.

If you think anything Carol has to say on why the costume isn't a good move, elaborating on why the men making this decision have got it wrong, then that's your perogative I guess. If you don't think it's important enough for a book you have argued is a leading feminist publication to lay out in black and white what the issue really is, again, that is your choice. I think it's worth the time for a woman being put forward as such an important figure to have her opinions heard more than a few throw away lines that are dismissed by Black a Panther.

Nah, the splash page was necessary. It was a big dramatic moment, and worked great as a page turn. Making room for the dialogue you wanted would've thrown off the pacing by moving everything after it back.

Carol's views on the show are important. We will be getting her views on the show. What is not relevant is her old costume. What is not relevant is having her explain why there's a difference between what she chose to wear a few years ago and how a TV show is choosing to depict what she wears now. That shit does not matter. That shit has absolutely nothing to do with what's going on now. No one else reading this book gives a shit about her old costume, in relation to the show. Because the show isn't using her old costume. It's using her current uniform. So her feelings on how the show depicts her current uniform is relevant. Anything she's worn in the past is not relevant. There is no reason for Stohl to address the old costume because it doesn't frigging matter.

[Anthony W]

Stohl has as many pages as are necessary. 22 pages is ample. That splash of her taking off out of the car could have been re priced to half a page with little to no effect on its dramatic impact.

If you think anything Carol has to say on why the costume isn't a good move, elaborating on why the men making this decision have got it wrong, then that's your perogative I guess. If you don't think it's important enough for a book you have argued is a leading feminist publication to lay out in black and white what the issue really is, again, that is your choice. I think it's worth the time for a woman being put forward as such an important figure to have her opinions heard more than a few throw away lines that are dismissed by Black a Panther.

It feels like the writer wants to have the cake and eat it to. Use it to preach, but ignore any valid questions that might arise.
This whole "Carol has a show, but she hates it" bit feels a lot like the writer lazily ripped off Peggy Carter.

[Tiamatty]

It feels like the writer wants to have the cake and eat it to. Use it to preach, but ignore any valid questions that might arise.
This whole "Carol has a show, but she hates it" bit feels a lot like the writer lazily ripped off Peggy Carter.

Which ripped it off from somewhere else. It's not like "Character hates in-universe fictionalized version of themselves" is a new idea. It's been done plenty. Hell, Ben Grimm used to occasionally complain about the in-universe Fantastic Four comics. Stohl just thought the idea of Carol being annoyed at a TV show based on her would be fun.

And "what about her old costume?" is not a valid question.

[brettc1]

It feels like the writer wants to have the cake and eat it to. Use it to preach, but ignore any valid questions that might arise.
This whole "Carol has a show, but she hates it" bit feels a lot like the writer lazily ripped off Peggy Carter.

Heh. I'd forgotten that. And yes, questions are always valid if it means you are thinking about the broader issues.

Nah, the splash page was necessary. It was a big dramatic moment, and worked great as a page turn. Making room for the dialogue you wanted would've thrown off the pacing by moving everything after it back.

Carol's views on the show are important. We will be getting her views on the show. What is not relevant is her old costume. What is not relevant is having her explain why there's a difference between what she chose to wear a few years ago and how a TV show is choosing to depict what she wears now. That shit does not matter. That shit has absolutely nothing to do with what's going on now. No one else reading this book gives a shit about her old costume, in relation to the show. Because the show isn't using her old costume. It's using her current uniform. So her feelings on how the show depicts her current uniform is relevant. Anything she's worn in the past is not relevant. There is no reason for Stohl to address the old costume because it doesn't frigging matter.

Of course it does. It matters because in a book that presents a woman as being competent and credible and equal, then it naturally requires an address of why she fought supervillains and led the Avengers in a skin tight bathing suit and thigh high boots, but now objects to be being depicted showing cleavage. Just because you don't see the disconnect doesn't mean others don't.

[Ascended]

The very fact that T'Challa and the other DONT see the actresses cleavage as an issue demands a more in depth response. Perhaps they too remember a Carols less demure uniform and see what she is saying as a contradiction. It's an opportunity to educate as well as entertain, but in this case it goes begging. Maybe we will see it revisited down the track. I hope so.

Pretty sure the answer to why T'Challa and the rest are letting the tacky costume fly is because they, like everyone else on earth, know that sex sells. That actress pulls her zipper down a little bit and the show's ratings increase proportionate to the actress' cup size.

Yeah, that's lame and its sexist and its also 100% true. Since this idiot show is supposed to help finance Alpha Flight, its bullsh*t that everyone involved has to swallow and deal with.

Seriously man, you're making this a much bigger thing than it is. It's pretty straightforward and simple.

[RafDanvers]

Margaret is awesome, she understands Captain Marvel's prsonality, humor and knoes how to balance extreme power and humanity, compassion. ACEEEEEEEEEE

[Tiamatty]

Of course it does. It matters because in a book that presents a woman as being competent and credible and equal, then it naturally requires an address of why she fought supervillains and led the Avengers in a skin tight bathing suit and thigh high boots, but now objects to be being depicted showing cleavage. Just because you don't see the disconnect doesn't mean others don't.

See, in a book about a woman being competent and credible and equal, I don't think it actually is necessary to address the fact that there's a difference between how that woman has chosen to dress in the past compared to how someone else tries to depict her now.

If Stohl chooses to have it brought up, that's her call, but by no stretch of the imagination is it even remotely necessary. It doesn't matter in the least. And if she does bring it up, people are going to bitch about her being too preachy or bashing the old costume or this complaint or that complaint, because it's a female-led solo with a female writer so there is absolutely no winning.