Superior Spider-Man: Was it Rape?

[Johnny Peril]

I could reply to this poster, but there is no educating some people. I just hope that he matures at some Point.
While It is just a comic book, this attitude reflects poorly on your character. Would you care to explain your point of view on this topic to your mother? Sister? Grandmother?

I will point out that clone conspiracy #4 makes it clear that Anna knew who Otto was, and was repulsed by him. Remember in Ends of the Earth he quite literally held the whole planet hostage.

Sincerely,

Thread God

You know, I interpreted that scene totally different. It didn't seem like she was actually "repulsed" by him but hurt that he deceived her. If you go back to Spider-Man #2 when Peter tells Anna the truth she doesn't seem disgusted by Doc Ock, in fact she even gives him a compliment. This whole thing reminds me of when Adam (Blue Marvel) Brashear's wife, after being married for about twenty years and raising two children, finally admits she was a spy with a fake name and background sent to keep tabs on him. He was upset but didn't hate her. I'm betting Anna and Doc hook up before this concludes.

[boots]

You know, I interpreted that scene totally different. It didn't seem like she was actually "repulsed" by him but hurt that he deceived her. If you go back to Spider-Man #2 when Peter tells Anna the truth she doesn't seem disgusted by Doc Ock, in fact she even gives him a compliment. This whole thing reminds me of when Adam (Blue Marvel) Brashear's wife, after being married for about twenty years and raising two children, finally admits she was a spy with a fake name and background sent to keep tabs on him. He was upset but didn't hate her. I'm betting Anna and Doc hook up before this concludes.

or lyja/alicia masters

[Michael Watkins]

Yeah, it doesn't matter if she knew Peter Parker or not.

She knew of Otto Octavius, psychopathic supervillain, and would have run out of the room screaming for help if he had looked like himself.

roll the tape

[CentralPower]

She knew of Otto Octavius, psychopathic supervillain, and would have run out of the room screaming for help if he had looked like himself.

But, at that point, how much was Otto....Otto?

By that point in the run, Otto had settled in to his new life as Peter Parker, and was making capital improvements to it. (Remember, he met Anna when he went back to school.) He legitimately had the job he said he had. He was working on a PhD. He was....not that bad.

Yeah, he did some bad stuff before, and he should have been in jail for it. But, the man that Anna met was the man that Otto was, and was intending to remain, at that point. He never really lied to her about his current (emphasis on "current") state.

[WebLurker]

But, at that point, how much was Otto....Otto?

By that point in the run, Otto had settled in to his new life as Peter Parker, and was making capital improvements to it. (Remember, he met Anna when he went back to school.) He legitimately had the job he said he had. He was working on a PhD. He was....not that bad.

Yeah, he did some bad stuff before, and he should have been in jail for it. But, the man that Anna met was the man that Otto was, and was intending to remain, at that point. He never really lied to her about his current (emphasis on "current") state.

But his "current state" was not his real one. Doc Ock was not Peter Parker, which is the person Marconi thought he was. (And as far as Ock not being bad; he'd murdered a man and stole his identity, and then did it all over again with the mind-wipe device. He was as much a villain as he was before.)

[Carabas]

I have nothing to add to that.

[CentralPower]

Naming be damned, Anna had no expectations of "Peter Parker". She met a guy. Guy was cool. They took up together. (It was actually a healthy and mature relationship.) The man she thought she knew was the man she met. Otto was using the Parker identity as his "working identity". He functionally was Peter Parker by then.

[Carabas]

Naming be damned, Anna had no expectations of "Peter Parker". She met a guy. Guy was cool. They took up together. (It was actually a healthy and mature relationship.) The man she thought she knew was the man she met. Otto was using the Parker identity as his "working identity". He functionally was Peter Parker by then.

Guy was also a muderous supervillain about twice the age he appeared to be, essentially possessing the corps of the man he murdered.

And functionally being somebody is a far cry from actually being somebody, especially in a superhero universe.

[Michael Watkins]

But his "current state" was not his real one. Doc Ock was not Peter Parker, which is the person Marconi thought he was. (And as far as Ock not being bad; he'd murdered a man and stole his identity, and then did it all over again with the mind-wipe device. He was as much a villain as he was before.)

Irrelevant. It wasn't rape.

[CentralPower]

It was not like Otto was sneaking off and musing "ahahahahaha, Anna does not suspect that it is I, Doctor Octopus...." At that point, Otto was happily building a life as Peter Parker. He had every intention of using the name, life and identity of....the guy he kinda sorta killed. And, frankly, all of those crimes were the the past. (Admittedly, only a few months in the past. But, the past.) He was starting a new life.

When he told Anna that he was Peter Parker (PhD candidate, tech entrepreneur and all around nice guy), he meant it. When he showed her affection and respect, he meant it. When he complimented her cooking, dammit, he meant it. He was the man she met, and delivered on every expectation that he led her to have.

Had Otto taken up with MJ or one of Parker's other ex-girlfriends, that would have been another question. They would have known pre-usurped Parker, and would have associated that name/face with a completely different person. Similarly, if Otto had taken up with an ex using Parker's name/face, and not told her what he was doing, that would have been out of bounds.

But, Anna had no first hand knowledge of either Parker or Otto. She met a guy, and things worked out.


Another wrinkle:
I ran this by the guy at the comic store. He pointed out that Marvel put out an official statement saying that Anna and Otto never slept together. (They probably wanted to avoid these sorts of discussions.) Yes, this contradicts what is strongly implied during "Superior Spider-Man". But, if we go by Marvel's official stance, the answer to the original question is a much less ambiguous "no".

[WebLurker]

Irrelevant. It wasn't rape.

It was based on false pretenses. Even if it didn't violate that specific law, Ock was still in the morally wrong position.

But, it was not like Otto was sneaking off and musing "ahahahahaha, Anna does not suspect that it is I, Doctor Octopus...."

Considering Doc Ock was working throughout the series to maintain the lie that he was Peter Parker, that's exactly what he was doing.

At that point, Otto was happily building a life as Peter Parker. He had every intention of using the name, life and identity of....the guy he kinda sorta killed. And, frankly, all of those crimes were the the past. (Admittedly, only a few months in the past. But, the past.) He was starting a new life.

In other words, he was still the same criminal he was before the identity theft? The whole point of SSM (if I recall correctly), was that he hadn't turned over a new leaf; that he was not the real Spider-Man and could not replace him.

When he told Anna that he was Peter Parker (PhD candidate, tech entrepreneur and all around nice guy), he meant it.

Impossible, that was the whole lie he had based his plan on. Whatever else he said that may have been true, this was was not one of them. Also, Doc Ock was not a nice guy after the mind switch; he murdered a captured supervillain in cold blood and thought it was okay. He thought he murdered Spider-Man and had no remorse, even after ostensibly taking up the cause, and tried to re-murder him with the mind-wipe device. He tried to take advantage of Mary Jane breifly, too. The man Ock was leading Marconi to believe he was a lie through and through. She didn't know who she was dating.

When he showed her affection and respect, he meant it. When he complimented her cooking, dammit, he meant it.

Maybe, but see above.

He was the man she met, and delivered on every expectation that he led her to have.

She never met the real man and one would expect honesty on a basic level, so I have to say: "Heck, no" to both statements.

Had Otto taken up with MJ or one of Parker's other ex-girlfriends, that would have been another question. They would have known pre-usurped Parker, and would have associated that name/face with a completely different person. Similarly, if Otto had taken up with an ex using Parker's name/face, and not told her what he was doing, that would have been out of bounds.

They actually tried to start that in the early issues. (IMHO, the series was screwed up from square one and the number one reason I think Dan Slott was a bad choice for as a Spider-Man writer.)

But, Anna had no first hand knowledge of either Parker or Otto. She met a guy, and things worked out.

Considering she didn't know the real Doc Ock, it hardly worked out. And what does first-hand knowledge have to do with anything? The guy she thought was Peter Parker did not exist; he was a total fabrication of Ock's for the express purpose of deceiving anyone and everyone he came into contact with.

Another wrinkle:
I ran this by the guy at the comic store. He pointed out that Marvel put out an official statement saying that Anna and Otto never slept together. (They probably wanted to avoid these sorts of discussions.) Yes, this contradicts what is strongly implied during "Superior Spider-Man". But, if we go by Marvel's official stance, the answer to the original question is a much less ambiguous "no".

You can debate which holds more weight, but if that was Marvel's "official" stance, they shouldn't have allowed the material to be in the actual comic. The latter is what speaks stronger.

[Mister Mets]

There is a distinction between morally wrong and rape.

Anna Maria would not have slept with SpOck if she had been aware that he had the mind of a serial killer. That said, there is a slippery slope.

With real serial killers, there's no movement to prosecute them for "rape by deception" in the event that their sexual partners were unaware of their extracurricular activities. It's a moot point since the criminal penalties would be the same with or without another prosecution, but we can apply it to other situations.

Is anyone who withholds any information that might alter a sexual partner's decisions committing rape by deception? If so, where do we draw the line?

In superhero comics, is anyone with a secret identity committing rape by deception because their partner doesn't have all the facts? In the real world, is anyone with a secret hobby committing rape by fraud because their partner might not approve?

[CentralPower]

In other words, he was still the same criminal he was before the identity theft? The whole point of SSM (if I recall correctly), was that he hadn't turned over a new leaf; that he was not the real Spider-Man and could not replace him.

The idea was what sort of hero that Otto could be. And, in some ways, he was better than Parker. Otto was setting out to be a better Parker and Spider-Man than Parker had or could have been. To do that, he had to become Parker. (And, he never mentioned the hero stuff to Anna. He just told her that he was making equipment for Spider-Man. But, Spider-Man was a mask for Otto/Parker.)

Hhe never met the real man and one would expect honesty on a basic level, so I have to say: "Heck, no" to both statements.

Otto led Anna to believe that she was in a mature relationship where she would be loved and respected. And, Otto delivered on that.

Considering she didn't know the real Doc Ock, it hardly worked out. And what does first-hand knowledge have to do with anything? The guy she thought was Peter Parker did not exist; h

The guy she met called himself Peter Parker, used Peter Parker's toothbrush, opened Peter Parker's mail, and worked on a degree with Peter Parker's name on it. The man she met was the man she met.

She would have had no expectations about who he was (old Parker or Otto). If she had known one or the other, then Otto would have been lying. But, she did not know either, and Otto was starting a new life. He was living as who he presented to Anna as.

[boots]

There is a distinction between morally wrong and rape.

Anna Maria would not have slept with SpOck if she had been aware that he had the mind of a serial killer. That said, there is a slippery slope.

With real serial killers, there's no movement to prosecute them for "rape by deception" in the event that their sexual partners were unaware of their extracurricular activities. It's a moot point since the criminal penalties would be the same with or without another prosecution, but we can apply it to other situations.

Is anyone who withholds any information that might alter a sexual partner's decisions committing rape by deception? If so, where do we draw the line?

In superhero comics, is anyone with a secret identity committing rape by deception because their partner doesn't have all the facts? In the real world, is anyone with a secret hobby committing rape by fraud because their partner might not approve?

mark waid played with that idea in "irredeemable" when a superman analog reveals his identity to a Lois lane analog and she reacts with disgust rather than the usually accepted comic book version of adoration

[WebLurker]

The idea was what sort of hero that Otto could be. And, in some ways, he was better than Parker. Otto was setting out to be a better Parker and Spider-Man than Parker had or could have been. To do that, he had to become Parker.

A.) The final issue had Ock himself admit that Peter was the better Spider-Man. B.) Ock did not act much like Peter or Spider-Man (a recurring idea that people who knew the real Peter were realizing that something was off). He was not Peter, just Ock pretending to be him.

(And, he never mentioned the hero stuff to Anna. He just told her that he was making equipment for Spider-Man. But, Spider-Man was a mask for Otto/Parker.)...The guy she met called himself Peter Parker, used Peter Parker's toothbrush, opened Peter Parker's mail, and worked on a degree with Peter Parker's name on it.

I don't see how that's enough. I could change my name and act differently when in public, but I'd still be me, not the identity I was showing the world.

The man she met was the man she met. She would have had no expectations about who he was (old Parker or Otto). If she had known one or the other, then Otto would have been lying. But, she did not know either, and Otto was starting a new life. He was living as who he presented to Anna as.

I don't think so; "Peter Parker" was just another mask Ock was using. There was nothing real about the "Peter Parker" that existed in that series.

But, I think, you do have the crux of the issue, is the ethics of Ock attempting a relationship with Marconi while using the Parker guise. I (obviously) feel that Ock has no justification, I take it you feel differently.

There is a distinction between morally wrong and rape...Is anyone who withholds any information that might alter a sexual partner's decisions committing rape by deception? If so, where do we draw the line?

I think I agree with the assessment that it wasn't rape (at least for Marconi, with Peter, I could see a case being made), but the situation still seems inherently wrong.

mark waid played with that idea in "irredeemable" when a superman analog reveals his identity to a Lois lane analog and she reacts with disgust rather than the usually accepted comic book version of adoration

Kind of interesting that the idea of superheroes keeping that secret from loved ones is not as common today (both iterations of Ultimate Spider-Man made a point of telling their significant others pretty early on, Kara Danvers told her friends in the Supergirl TV show, etc.)

If I recall correctly, in Superior Spider-Man, Ock was thinking about proposing to Marconi without telling her that he was the guy in the Spider-Man costume. Kind of wonder how that would've gone if Peter hadn't been able to take his life back.