Superior Spider-Man: Was it Rape?

[BlitheringToot]

This topic again?

[Michael Watkins]

It was based on false pretenses. Even if it didn't violate that specific law, Ock was still in the morally wrong position.

yes, he's a supervillain. I am only speaking to the rape; per thread subject.

[CentralPower]

But, I think, you do have the crux of the issue, is the ethics of Ock attempting a relationship with Marconi while using the Parker guise. I (obviously) feel that Ock has no justification, I take it you feel differently

Otto had completely usurped Parker. (If you take somebody's name, mailing address and toothbrush, you pretty pretty much are them.) Otto was a new guy (albeit using another guy's name.) He was living as Parker. He was putting enough effort in to that identity to get a PhD because, dammit, he wanted a PhD in his day to day life. When he met Anna, he was giving her an honest account of the life he was planning.


Having the relationship continue, without Anna knowing, would have been a good modernization of the old Silver Age cliche about the hero having to hide his identity from his girlfriend or wife. (Superman was kind of a jerk in the old comics.) Having Otto as the hero could make for Seinfeldian amorality.

[Carabas]

Otto had completely usurped Parker.

You keep on saying that as if it is true, or would make even a tiny difference if it was.

[WebLurker]

Otto had completely usurped Parker. (If you take somebody's name, mailing address and toothbrush, you pretty pretty much are them.)

That doesn't make any sense to me.

Otto was a new guy (albeit using another guy's name.) He was living as Parker. He was putting enough effort in to that identity to get a PhD because, dammit, he wanted a PhD in his day to day life. When he met Anna, he was giving her an honest account of the life he was planning.

I didn't get through the entire series, so maybe I missed something, but from what I remember, it was an act; it was the real Doc Ock in private and the Peter Parker act he presented to others. I think I get what you're saying, but I'm not quite sure if that matches what I know about it.

Having the relationship continue, without Anna knowing, would have been a good modernization of the old Silver Age cliche about the hero having to hide his identity from his girlfriend or wife. (Superman was kind of a jerk in the old comics.)

How does that work? Wouldn't a modernization involve Ock not keeping the "I'm a superhero (allegedly)" secret (like how the USM Spider-Men told their significant others the truth early on).

Having Otto as the hero could make for Seinfeldian amorality.

That might be why I don't like Superior Spider-Man (outside of the stuff that offended and grossed me out); it ditched the idea of a genuine hero for a villain trying to sell himself as a hero; it wasn't the premise that I look for when I want a Spider-Man story.

[Vixx]

That doesn't make any sense to me.



I didn't get through the entire series, so maybe I missed something, but from what I remember, it was an act; it was the real Doc Ock in private and the Peter Parker act he presented to others. I think I get what you're saying, but I'm not quite sure if that matches what I know about it.




How does that work? Wouldn't a modernization involve Ock not keeping the "I'm a superhero (allegedly)" secret (like how the USM Spider-Men told their significant others the truth early on).



That might be why I don't like Superior Spider-Man (outside of the stuff that offended and grossed me out); it ditched the idea of a genuine hero for a villain trying to sell himself as a hero; it wasn't the premise that I look for when I want a Spider-Man story.

Think Peter needs to examine the relationships he has with the women in his life ...

Gwen sleeps with Norman (and they allude not Peter), Otto does this as Peter, Black Cat started out only liking Spider-Man, Mary Jane gets kidnapped 2x ... By venom and during the baby May arc - with the kid seeming removed and stolen, Betty marries Ned ( guess they kind of retcon'd that one into oblivion...)

Think part of this is in trying to tell these kind of stories, they probably don't have a massive female input to give feedback on that point of view ( note from editor : it gets pervish riiiight here... Page 13, panel 4)... But they do try and add details to make what's creepy a little less creepy .. ( oh, she never met Peter before... So that's different. She was attracted to Ottos brain, to Normans power... Etc)

I chalk it all up to ew.

Real question is if you removed it does it impact the story - or could it be told in another way?

Legally - think it would depend on New York statute... theyd likely have to go way back to find examples of someone impersonating a dead guy for president. I'm sure they could charge something - but rape - in the legal sense - may be a stretch.

[MagSeven]

Otto having sex with Anna without her ever having a pre-existing relationship with Peter is not rape.
If Otto was having sex with Mary Jane as he was disguised as Peter, that would be.

[Carabas]

Otto having sex with Anna without her ever having a pre-existing relationship with Peter is not rape.

At least, not as long as she knows his name is Otto and that he's a supervillain.

[CentralPower]

I didn't get through the entire series, so maybe I missed something, but from what I remember, it was an act; it was the real Doc Ock in private and the Peter Parker act he presented to others. I think I get what you're saying, but I'm not quite sure if that matches what I know about it.

Otto was using Parker's body. He he planned to use Parker's body, and job and toothbrush (and whatever the hell else).

Just put aside the names for a minute.

Anna meets a guy. Call the guy...Senior Cabeza de Caca. Anna meets Mr. Caca. She has never met Peter Parker. (The fact that Mr. Caca looks like Parker is irrelevant.) She has never met, or made a point of avoiding Otto. (The fact that Mr. Caca used to be Otto is similarly irrlevant.) She met Mr. Caca. Mr. Caca identifies himself as a PhD candidate and entrepreneur. Mr. Caca is in fact both of those things. Anna and Mr. Caca begin a mature and healthy relationship of their own free will. (Honestly, this is one of the more stable relationships in comics.)

Anna met who she met, regardless of what he was calling himself. There was no deception. (Get over the fact that you know who Peter is or what Otto did. By the time Anna showed up, Otto was living and identifying himself as Peter.)

How does that work? Wouldn't a modernization involve Ock not keeping the "I'm a superhero (allegedly)" secret (like how the USM Spider-Men told their significant others the truth early on).

The idea could have been to keep the whole "main character lies about a secret identity in a way that is not appropriate to modern sensibilities" angle.

[theoneandonly]

Its a fine line. On one hand he didn't force her so she must have felt genuinely attracted to him but on the other hand he is a predator who has charmed woman and essentially kept them in the dark about holis true motivations so he is falling into a pattern over here. Whenever a man bamboozles a woman into a relationship under false pretenses he makes absolutely sure that he won't stop from achieving his objective and pretty much obsesses over her. Some females find it frightening and will consider such a relationship as violating but it is a fact that females do give in to such intense feelings later if being kept pressurized so that they may end in a relationship but it is not healthy or stable. That seems to be the case here.

[MagSeven]

At least, not as long as she knows his name is Otto and that he's a supervillain.

But with that logic, anyone keeping a terrible secret from their significant other would be guilty of rape if they had intercourse. Was Otto being a deceptive scumbag? Absolutely, but not a rapist.

[Michael Watkins]

Its a fine line. On one hand he didn't force her so she must have felt genuinely attracted to him but on the other hand he is a predator who has charmed woman and essentially kept them in the dark about holis true motivations so he is falling into a pattern over here. Whenever a man bamboozles a woman into a relationship under false pretenses he makes absolutely sure that he won't stop from achieving his objective and pretty much obsesses over her. Some females find it frightening and will consider such a relationship as violating but it is a fact that females do give in to such intense feelings later if being kept pressurized so that they may end in a relationship but it is not healthy or stable. That seems to be the case here.

guh. do we even need to make this a gender issue? men and women lie to maintain relationships. anyone who has been on a first date with someone knows this. and sometimes women have ulterior motives. whether she knew his real name or not, Anna Maria was intimate with Otto. she got to know the side of him that mattered. he was not lying about respecting her or loving her. as evidenced in this recent clone storyline, his feelings haven't changed. if she cared that much about his past, she would have done a background check; prior to becoming more intimate.

[WebLurker]

Otto was using Parker's body. He he planned to use Parker's body, and job and toothbrush (and whatever the hell else).

Just put aside the names for a minute.

Anna meets a guy. Call the guy...Senior Cabeza de Caca. Anna meets Mr. Caca. She has never met Peter Parker. (The fact that Mr. Caca looks like Parker is irrelevant.) She has never met, or made a point of avoiding Otto. (The fact that Mr. Caca used to be Otto is similarly irrlevant.) She met Mr. Caca. Mr. Caca identifies himself as a PhD candidate and entrepreneur. Mr. Caca is in fact both of those things. Anna and Mr. Caca begin a mature and healthy relationship of their own free will. (Honestly, this is one of the more stable relationships in comics.)

Anna met who she met, regardless of what he was calling himself. There was no deception. (Get over the fact that you know who Peter is or what Otto did. By the time Anna showed up, Otto was living and identifying himself as Peter.)

Regardless of the names, the thing is, that one partner created a persona that they're actively trying to keep up. They're living a lie. That's the hangup for me. You can say that since Ock identified himself as Peter, then passing himself off as such to Marconi was okay, but the thing is Ock was not Peter. The "Peter Parker" that existed at that point was imaginary, since it was Ock's attempts to pretend to be him.

(I'm also not sure the relationship was that healthy, given that Ock was lying to her about the person he was and from the bits and pieces I've seen, he seemed kind of unhealthily obsessed. But, I didn't see every little detail, so I could be wrong.)

The idea could have been to keep the whole "main character lies about a secret identity in a way that is not appropriate to modern sensibilities" angle.

Oh.

[boots]

But with that logic, anyone keeping a terrible secret from their significant other would be guilty of rape if they had intercourse. Was Otto being a deceptive scumbag? Absolutely, but not a rapist.

well, that would be any superhero or supervillain with dual identities then.

it's certainly an interesting moral question, which may or may not be one of rape.

but this is what happens when you look too deep into the reasoning behind superheroes- almost all of them would be judged harshly in irl society for one reason or another.

[Carabas]

Regardless of the names, the thing is, that one partner created a persona that they're actively trying to keep up. They're living a lie. That's the hangup for me. You can say that since Ock identified himself as Peter, then passing himself off as such to Marconi was okay, but the thing is Ock was not Peter. The "Peter Parker" that existed at that point was imaginary, since it was Ock's attempts to pretend to be him.

well, that would be any superhero or supervillain with dual identities then.

At DC one of the Flashes (IIRC it was the silver age, so probably Barry) not telling his wife he's the Flash until some time AFTER they were married is similarily skeevy.