SUPERVILLIAN REFORMS why the need ?

[warzon]

I been noticing something lately not only w DC but w MARVEL as well.i'm not a big MARVEL fan.my heart and wallet belongs to DC.that being said.i'm looking forward to the new JLA title coming next month.but was wandering why is it that the VILLIANS seems to be reforming into ''HEROES'' we have SUPERMAN rival LEX LUTHOR.now a ''SUPERMAN'' LOBO and KILLER FROST joining the new JLA.when their are other HEROES who could have filled those role's.brute's with super strength=AMAZING MAN.CITIZEN STEEL.FREIGHT TRAIN.IRON MUNRO.LOOSE CANNON.MARTAIN MANHUNTER.OMAC.OLYMPIAN.RED STAR.STEEL=joh henry irons.ULTRAA.VARTOX.and as for elementals with ice based powers theirs.CELSIUS.EQUINOX.ICE.ICE MAIDEN.FROSTBITE.WINTER.so I was wandering what about FIRESTORM,killer frost was one of his most dangerous rivals.who will replace that role for him.and who's next will CIRCE become WONDER WOMAN bff or the JOKER decide's to go the straight and narrow.or wiwhy is it cool for the villians to become heroes.and with the exception of HAL JORDAN who became PARALAXX has any other HERO became a VILLIAN.take a look a MARVEL some of their most popular VILLIANS have become ''HEROES'' or ''ANTI HEROES'' MAGNETO.EMMA FROST.MYSTIQUE.SABRETOOTH just to name a few.

[phantom1592]

I wouldn't say it's a NEW thing... but it's certainly something I hate. I remember when they turned Venom into a 'Lethal protector' heroic character... or when Storm Shadow reformed and joined GI JOE. That was in the 80's and 90's... Magneto has more followers than Xavier anymore.... Emma Frost? Flash went through a period where Trickster and Pied Piper were reformed...

A hero's value is determined by the quality of his villains... and when you transform a villain into a hero.... everyone suffers.

[Francisco]

I wouldn't say it's a NEW thing... but it's certainly something I hate. I remember when they turned Venom into a 'Lethal protector' heroic character... or when Storm Shadow reformed and joined GI JOE. That was in the 80's and 90's... Magneto has more followers than Xavier anymore.... Emma Frost? Flash went through a period where Trickster and Pied Piper were reformed...

A hero's value is determined by the quality of his villains... and when you transform a villain into a hero.... everyone suffers.

Only if you don't create new villains (quality ones) to replace them. Reforming a villain can also signify the success of your hero. Your hero managed to make an arch foe to become an ally. That's success that's going forward it prevents stagnation. But as I said before you need to create new believable threats.

[gwangung]

I wouldn't say it's a NEW thing... but it's certainly something I hate. I remember when they turned Venom into a 'Lethal protector' heroic character... or when Storm Shadow reformed and joined GI JOE. That was in the 80's and 90's... Magneto has more followers than Xavier anymore.... Emma Frost? Flash went through a period where Trickster and Pied Piper were reformed...

A hero's value is determined by the quality of his villains... and when you transform a villain into a hero.... everyone suffers.

It kinda depends on the nature of the villain, too, doesn't it? I mean, Magneto (as conceive as the Malcolm X to Xavier's King) always had the seeds to cross back over into the light (less so for Emma Frost).

On the other hand, with Sinestro, you have a character effectively acting as both antagonist and anti-hero, so that would run counter to the trend. And there are some characters where it makes no sense to act as hero (yeah, I would guess Venom falls into this)....

[Kaijudo]

I think villains just lend themselves more to personal growth than name heroes, who have to maintain a status quo to remain identifiable to readers. But villains aren't going to be used to sell shampoo or mac n' cheese, typically, so they can evolve a bit more than the (bigger named) heroes they face. I don't think it should be a regular occurrence, but every once in a while it's okay.

All I know is that my favorite versions of the Trickster, Sandman, and Heatwave is when they were all on the side of good. Sucks when writers get lazy and just decide to have them revert back for no real reason.

[t hedge coke]

It's good for drama if some good people end up doing bad things or some bad people are trying to do good things.

And, sometimes repositioning a character really helps them stand out.

Hawkeye is better off not being an Iron Man villain.

Guy Gardner is funny if he's hit on the head and turns overly nice.

Sometimes a reformed Flash villain shines brighter than any time he was committing crimes.

[Dispenser Of Truth]

Aside from a chance to turn a major fan-favorite into a marquee lead, it helps show superheroes aren't complete naive morons for believing the best in people.

[RedKnight00]

Because it's easier to create a new hero or update an older one. In Lobo's case, he is a very recognizable character, more than anyone you said (except for MM) and that deserves a Rebirth, so it makes sense for him to be here. Also he is on the very successful JLvSS along with Killer Frost, that makes a very solid foundation for JLA, much safer than putting four lesser known characters in the team and given how bad is the current JL I don't blame DC for playing safe.

[Lee Stone]

I think the best villain reforms have been Scarlet Witch and Rogue.
And Magneto was interesting during his turn as headmaster of the X-Men/New Mutants, but we all knew that it wouldn't last.
But all three added another facet to their characters.

I think there's a certain type of villain that can work as a hero, even if it's temporary.
Psychotic villains can't believably turn good without some sort of magic or cosmic handwaving, and mastermind villains like Luthor, Magneto and Dr. Doom will only be good as long as it serves a bigger secret purpose.
But the villains that are either disillusioned or just doing it for a thrill (and not intentionally harming anyone) just need a form of intervention to redirect their motivations, be it a twist of fate (a plot point by a skilled writer) or the interest of an established hero.

And if the villain-turned-hero had killed someone during their time as a villain (either intentional or accidentally) there had better be a cloud of remorse and regret hanging over them until they come to terms with it, if ever. The more severe cases would probably never find redemption but they should always strive for it. Otherwise, their sincerity at turning a new leaf would be in doubt.

[Jim Kelly]

I think with DC there was a stronger line between villain and hero. They didn't have many characters that fit the anti-hero model that Marvel had carved out as their trademark. And when DC wanted to eat Marvel's lunch, they had to come up with some anti-hero matter.

Other than creating original anti-heroes (and with creator rights this became costly), they either had to make their heroes anti-heroic or make their villains into anti-heroes. And they did a litte of both, but it looks like they tried to make a lot of heroes into anti-heroes and outright villains starting in the late '80s and especially strong in the '90s. Green Lantern (Hal), Captain Atom, Hawk, Azrael and others stepped over the line from hero to anti-hero if not all the way to full-blown villainy. Others like Batman were now outlaws. Superboy Prime who was just a Superman from another universe became a villain.

I've noticed that Geoff Johns prefers to go the other way and make villains into heroes or anti-heroes. He saved Hal from villainy but made Sinestro an anti-hero. Which to me is a complete crock. Sinestro was the most evil of evil villains in the universe, he doesn't need my sympathy. Johns has done the same with Black Adam, Zod, Luthor.

I don't like this moral relativism. It undermines my faith in any comic book heroes. If any of them can so easily slip from hero to anti-hero to villain and back the other way, then whose side am I on? The outcome doesn't matter as there's no good nor evil but only a fuzzy in-between.

[Ascended]

Depending on the villain or hero in question it doesnt bother me.

For one, its great to see a hero actually make a difference and turn a villain around. This was a hallmark of the early Wonder Woman comics, and I think those stories make her the most successful hero in the industry; consider the amount of lives Diana saved just by turning Paula Von Gunther away from her evil ways? That sort of thing is supposed to be the end game for most heroes, right? If they dont manage to pull it off at least occasionally they're not very effective, are they?

And in real life, morality isn't a black and white thing. Good people do bad things and vice versa, and throwing a little of that into superheroes can really enrich the mythos and add some much needed complexity to an otherwise binary world view.

Some villains should never come close to heroism, and some heroes should never come close to villainy. But there's room for a middle ground and there can be some damn good stories told from Guy Gardner joining the Red Lanterns, or seeing Magneto play into the positive examples of Malcolm X, or seeing Jason Todd return to life full of rage and vengeance, and then seeing him slowly come back around to better ways.

And really, a lot of villains are just doing it for the cash and/or thrills. Wouldn't it be better for, say, ARGUS to hire the Central City Rogues? They just want to get paid and have fun, and an ARGUS paycheck would go a long way towards Captain Cold stopping crimes instead of committing them. Wouldn't it make more sense for the Army to hire Metallo and use him in combat overseas, rather than the government spending millions to keep him incarcerated at Stryker's (where he can see LexCorp tower and Superman from his window)? Metallo is a douchebag with a serious mad-on for Lex and Superman, but drop him in a hole full of Kobra or ISIS idiots and he's worth an entire battalion of soldiers. And the paycheck and adoration of his fellow soldiers might go a long way towards making Metallo less of a jackass as well.

I will say that Marvel goes overboard with this at times. It seems that there isn't a year in the modern age where they haven't had someone switching teams, whether that's Superior Spider-Man or Magneto or whoever; a hero or villain changing sides is practically a Marvel mainstay.

[Flyattractor]

I hate it. Plain and Simple. It is just the wimpification of things that goes on in media today. That and the trope that companies like DC/WB seem to think that "No One will follow a story with the Bad Guy as the Main character" nonsense.

And being a Major Classic Lobo fan.. I don't want to see Him become a guy that saves puppy & kittens from the guy that steps on them and makes snacks out of em.

Save that Lame-O crap for other characters.

NOT LOBO!

[Thanos]

Lobo isn't a hero or villain, he just does whatever he wants.

[Jim Kelly]

They're hardly very well written most of the time. In fact, I'm reminded of all the soap operas I used to watch. On those, characters would constantly shift from being the villain to the good guy to the villain to the good guy. It got quite ridiculous. Just look at someone like Jack Abbott on THE YOUNG AND THE RESTLESS. But Dan Didio's past experience was in the soaps, so it makes sense.

[Ascended]

I hate it. Plain and Simple. It is just the wimpification of things that goes on in media today. That and the trope that companies like DC/WB seem to think that "No One will follow a story with the Bad Guy as the Main character" nonsense.

And being a Major Classic Lobo fan.. I don't want to see Him become a guy that saves puppy & kittens from the guy that steps on them and makes snacks out of em.

Save that Lame-O crap for other characters.

NOT LOBO!

I didnt read the New52 Lobo, but when has Lobo saved cats from being stepped on?

Is this because he's joining JLA? It wouldn't be the first time he's worked with heroes (LEGION, REBELS) and we dont know why he's on the team yet. He's a bounty hunter who does things for money. Batman is on the JLA and has a lot of money. The likely reason for Lobo's inclusion seems pretty clear to me.

I do agree that DC seems hesitant to give a villain a solo title without making them somewhat sympathetic, but at the same time Deathstroke hasn't done much in his current title that I'd call heroic.