What went wrong with Marvel's push of Carol?

[InformationGeek]

Carol has had relaunch after relaunch. Mockingbird lasted eight issue. Fearless Defenders and A-Force were both cancelled after a year or less. Spider-Woman is hanging in there but will likely not get into the 20's despite brilliant writing. She-Hulk is back in alead but for how long? If Black Widow, arguably there most recognized female character right now, got a run of longer than 2years I can't remember it.

She's also using the Hulk title for her book as well, but whatever. There's also All-New Wolverine, which I think is getting relaunched again for some reason?

It's in-organic.

We are just told how important Carol now is without it being shown.

Indeed. That's a big problem. It sometimes feels like writers are skipping several steps to building up a new character and declaring them great.

[ed2962]

I get that, but the past is a huge part of what informs the character. You wouldn't make that same argument about the death of Peter Parker's uncle, right? That happened more than 50 years ago. Same with Tony's heart condition, Banner's abusive childhood, the death of Daredevil's father, etc. These events shaped the people we know as heroes today, and while you are correct in saying they shouldn't be referenced in every issue, they should not be forgotten and should be remembered as part of the mosaic of that person's life.

I understand what you're saying, but I think the difference with say Mar-Vell is that, he didn't function as the mentor or the plot device motivation for her like maybe...Nova Prime for Rich Ryder or the Ancient one for Dr Strange. He was this whole other hero with this loose connection to Carol that Marvel doesn't publish anymore. I think for a long time they have been trying to establish Carol as her own person apart from her. I think with the alcoholism, it's like with Tony Stark, it's a problem she once had, but managed to overcome it. The Immortus/Rogue thing I think it's what Ian said...it's a low point for the character and while should be acknowledged, probably not best to dwell on too much. One thing that bugs me with Hank Pym is that when writers don't know what to do, they go back to "Hank had a nervous breakdown like three times and once hit his wife! Let's redeem him...again!"

[dreyga2000]

Can someone tell me about Carol's current characterizaton, in regards to the following:

Do they reference Mar-Vell at all?
Do they acknowledge the Rogue attack?
Any reference to the horrible Immortus episode?
How about the Warbird period? Her alcoholism?

These are some of the key things I remember about her past and Busiek incorporated them to the point where I liked the character that came out the other side of these conflicts and challenges. I just get the feeling that they've swept all that under the rug in order to make this new "Carol" who might well be a fine person, but someone that really isn't the Carol I remember...?"

Her 50 issue series 2006 was about Carol confronting each on of these issues so she could move on as person on her quest to move on and become a better person. She actually faced off against an alternate reality doppelganger code name Warbird who still an alcoholic who went from one universe to another killing Rogues. Our Carol's ability to put these things behind her an mov on are what made her hero as opposed to the murderous lunatic like Warbird.

It's in-organic.

We are just told how important Carol now is without it being shown.

This confuses me. They've literally spent 11 years taking Carol from some aspiring to be like her House of M counterpart ( who was called Captain Marvel and was the most popular hero of her universe) to becoming said person in-universe. This process was meretriciously slow and well detailed. What exactly is missing??




Also, here is a question how can someone both be a Mary Sue and a Despot. Either her character is too perfect or irredeemable can't really be both at the same time.

[Magneto]

Honestly, Marvel is acting like Carol is the Wonder Woman of their universe, but She-Hulk, Black Widow, Storm, X-23, Rogue, Scarlet Witch, Jean Grey and Emma Frost are all more important/relevant/selling better.

The popularity has to be natural. Otherwise it feel forced on us and it will never happen, just like the Inhumans. It's sad, because that shows the fact that Marvel isn't listening to their fans. I mean Carol had so many on-going and yet, she's still a failure.

[JediKage]

Well to be fair they don't own The X-woman so that is not helpful.

She-Hulk is a derivative of the Hulk. And unlike Captain Mar-vell, the Hulk is not being cut from the MCU.
Black Widow is cool and should get a movie but she is not a power house.

Honestly, I hate Wanda and she probably be a better option. I assume what holds her back is she cant throw punches with the Big Guns.

[dreyga2000]

Well to be fair they don't own The X-woman so that is not helpful.

She-Hulk is a derivative of the Hulk. And unlike Captain Mar-vell, the Hulk is not being cut from the MCU.
Black Widow is cool and should get a movie but she is not a power house.

Honestly, I hate Wanda and she probably be a better option. I assume what holds her back is she cant throw punches with the Big Guns.

Wanda's ownership is also a bit messy because of X-Men ties

[JediKage]

True since both companies can use her and Pietro.

[dreyga2000]

I can't name anything NASTY said about ANY DC female unlike at Marvel

Trust me back in the day, before they reset the CBR fourms, Wonder Woman went thorough some dark days. There used to be threads about replacing Wonder Woman with Green Lantern in the trinity. Threads about how Wonder Woman didn't deserve to be compared to Superman/Batman. About why her title used couldn't gather the same sales as more popular DC titles. Oh how the tides have turned.

[Valamist]

She's also using the Hulk title for her book as well, but whatever. There's also All-New Wolverine, which I think is getting relaunched again for some reason?

I do not think its getting a real relaunch. She is getting a new costume and a new arc starts #19, but its still carrying on issue-wise.

[Tiamatty]

That's crap. I'm male and I've enjoyed books like Black Widow, Scarlet Witch, Patsy Walker: Hellcat and the previous She-Hulk series. There ARE men who read and books with female leads.

Yeah, there are guys who read female-led titles. I'm one of them. But most of Marvel's audience refuses to read a female lead.

Carol Danvers has been in the Marvel Universe for almost 49 years only around 6 years less than Spiderman so the Whole "people don't like her cause she ain't classic" is BS.

She's been around for a long time, but she didn't have her own book in the '60s. Any Marvel title that hasn't been in continuous publication since the '60s can't find an audience.

[Vegeta]

She's been around for a long time, but she didn't have her own book in the '60s. Any Marvel title that hasn't been in continuous publication since the '60s can't find an audience.

I dunno, Deadpool seems to sell pretty well.

[Valamist]

While I disagree with Carol being unlikable, that actually wasn't my point in that post. My point is that there is absolutely a significant chunk of Marvel readers who are misogynistic and won't read any comic with a female in the lead role. You can give any female character a solo, most of Marvel's audience will never even consider reading it. And yeah, most male characters fall into that hole, too, but every female character is given a hard pass by most of Marvel's audience. And yeah, misogyny is a part of that, as is the refusal to try anything that hasn't been around for 50 years.

75% of Marvel's audience simply will not give Captain Marvel a shot. It doesn't matter who writes her. It doesn't matter who does the art. It doesn't even matter if it's a different woman in the title role. It could be praised as the best comic Marvel put out, 75% of Marvel's audience won't give a ****. They'd rather read a Captain America run they hate than to try a different title they might love, especially if that different title has a female lead.

I would not like to stereotype anyone, but from my experience in this and other fandoms (Doctor Who, video game stuff etc) I have to agree. There are some readers who will simply not want to read a book because it has a woman as the main character. In video games where you can choose a male or female protagonist you can bet the male will most likely be the most picked option, no matter the quality in voice acting, writing etc. In the rare cases when female characters are popular it is normally due to heavy fan service (Not that I find that a negative reason to play). Sure some will have legitimate reasons for disliking these character etc, but I do fear that the majority reasoning is much darker.

It is getting better though. I mean, we are slowly getting female-lead superhero films. More video games have female-only protagonists, and I still cannot quite believe that the latest two Star Wars films have had female main characters. I just hope Marvel will still keep making female-led comics, no matter how loud the anti-voices are or how low they sell.

Given how fiction should away be trying to challenge the characters, readers and themes in their medium, I cannot help but find it funny just how against some people are against any form of change in comics. I am all for it. The only think stranger is when a big change happens, said readers always seem to think it will never be reversed and their favorite hero is forever gone (Take the Hydra Cap stuff). Personally speaking, I love what they are doing with my favorite comic character at the moment (She-Hulk and exploring the mental and physicals scars that have left her changed after CWII) and actually think Marvel should take more risks like this, Legacy mantels, new characters etc.

[Vic Vega]

Her 50 issue series 2006 was about Carol confronting each on of these issues so she could move on as person on her quest to move on and become a better person. She actually faced off against an alternate reality doppelganger code name Warbird who still an alcoholic who went from one universe to another killing Rogues. Our Carol's ability to put these things behind her an mov on are what made her hero as opposed to the murderous lunatic like Warbird.



This confuses me. They've literally spent 11 years taking Carol from some aspiring to be like her House of M counterpart ( who was called Captain Marvel and was the most popular hero of her universe) to becoming said person in-universe. This process was meretriciously slow and well detailed. What exactly is missing??




Also, here is a question how can someone both be a Mary Sue and a Despot. Either her character is too perfect or irredeemable can't really be both at the same time.

The Brian Reed era Carol that went into the first Civil War was determined but a mess with kind of a law and order streak. The same mess that Buskiek wrote about.

McConnick replaced her many personal issues with snappy banter.

Next thing i know she is in charge of a space station just because and all her issues are a distant memory with only her authoritarian streak remaining.

Whatever breakthrough she had must have been off screen so to speak cuz i never saw it.

To me none of her post Brian Reed stability was earned.

[brettc1]

The Brian Reed era Carol that went into the first Civil War was determined but a mess with kind of a law and order streak. The same mess that Buskiek wrote about.

McConnick replaced her many personal issues with snappy banter.

Next thing i know she is in charge of a space station just because and all her issues are a distant memory with only her authoritarian streak remaining.

Whatever breakthrough she had must have been off screen so to speak cuz i never saw it.

To me none of her post Brian Reed stability was earned.

That's a pretty good way to describe it.

I also agree with the point about her lack of opponents to bounce off. A hero is often only as interesting as the adversaries they are matched against and for some time Carols opponents have either been c-grade forgettable or other heroes. You can't distinguish a character like that.

[KFrosty]

Well to be fair they don't own The X-woman so that is not helpful.

Wanda's ownership is also a bit messy because of X-Men ties

Marvel DOES own the right to the X characters for use in comic books. Wanda's ownership is fine across the board, and only looks messy when speaking about her father.* This is a poor excuse as to not including Rogue in Carol's comic history

*screw retcons, everyone knows Magneto is her father