What went wrong with Marvel's push of Carol?

[Tiamatty]

No more head gear. Give us a big hair for Carol. She'd look more beautiful and more likable. And please don't make her look like an adult woman cos when she was Ms Marvel, she looks younger and better.

. . . Why would a woman who should realistically be pushing 40 not look like an adult woman?

No, really, late 30s is the youngest she could reasonably be. She debuted in the '60s, as the head of security at a NASA facility. We know she had a fairly successful Air Force career before that. So let's say she signed up when she was 18. She spent a few years doing missions and then left to be head of security at that facility. Honestly, in the original comics, she looked to be late 20s to me (which would still be unrealistically young, but comics), but let's call her 25. Prior to Secret Wars, roughly 13 years had passed since the debut of the Fantastic Four, but then with the Secret Wars timeskip, that has to be at 14 now, maybe even 15. So she would be 39 or 40 years old now.

So, yes, Carol should absolutely be drawn as a woman. Drawing her to look like she's in her early 20s would be ridiculous. She's not in her early 20s. She's in her late 30s, maybe even early 40s.

[Michael Watkins]

plus, it's easier to take someone seriously when you can't see their butt crack. but that's just my opinion.

[Danileriver23]

. . . Why would a woman who should realistically be pushing 40 not look like an adult woman?

No, really, late 30s is the youngest she could reasonably be. She debuted in the '60s, as the head of security at a NASA facility. We know she had a fairly successful Air Force career before that. So let's say she signed up when she was 18. She spent a few years doing missions and then left to be head of security at that facility. Honestly, in the original comics, she looked to be late 20s to me (which would still be unrealistically young, but comics), but let's call her 25. Prior to Secret Wars, roughly 13 years had passed since the debut of the Fantastic Four, but then with the Secret Wars timeskip, that has to be at 14 now, maybe even 15. So she would be 39 or 40 years old now.

So, yes, Carol should absolutely be drawn as a woman. Drawing her to look like she's in her early 20s would be ridiculous. She's not in her early 20s. She's in her late 30s, maybe even early 40s.

While I agree that she should be portrayed as an adult I wouldn't put her in her late 30s early 40s. I'd say she's more late 20s to mid 30s like most characters. It doesn't make sense, but thats what happens when you try to apply real time to comics.

[Seren]

Having just re-read Avenger's Annual #10 (1982) she was 29 at that point -it's out right stated in the comic. So I think it's perfectly feasible for Carol to be in her late 30s or early 40s. And Kelly Sue had said at some point or another that she wrote Carol as a woman in her mid to late 30s - and a few years have passed in MU time since then at least..

[Thad937]

Haven't read the previous comments, so sorry if I hit on anything already mentioned.

I started reading the series in 2012 when the "push" arguably began. I really didn't know any of the history of the character. I followed through that second volume and then dropped it when they launched the third. Generally, while I liked the character, writing, and art, I think the biggest problem was that she never had a villain or adversary that was compelling. It's been awhile since I revisited that run, so I could be mistaken, but I recall a lot of lighthearted Carol stuff, struggles with her own powers, tie-in interruptions, and one cool story where she went back in time. To me a really good character is almost defined by their villains, and Marvel never seemed to invest in building any kind of rogues gallery for her (or many of their newer characters, imo).

EDIT: Lol alright now I see that's exactly what the last comments are about.

That's the point that I'm trying to make. Captain America has the Red Skull, Thor has Loki, Batman has Ra's al Ghul, The Flash has Professor Zoom, Peter Parker had Norman Osborne. Some heroines (She-Hulk and Wonder Women) have boring, cliche, and forgettable antagonists. The writers seem to spend more time on their internal conflict rather than developing a antagonist that defines the hero.

Marvel needs to give Carol (and She-Hulk, and other heroines) a worthy opponent. Would Moonstone qualify? Maybe Thanos son Thane or the resurrected Sentry since he had a past with Carol.

[dreyga2000]

Here's the thing Carol is a Colonel... However it takes on average 22 years to make O-6 in the Airforce, and to become an officer you at lest need a college degree which takes 4 years to earn full time. Also she had no money for college, so she enlisted to pay for school. Assuming she was selected for the Academy Scholarship ( very rare I mind you) and broke her contract early to commission she'd still had to be enlisted for at least 2 years. So that makes 28 years to make Colonel plus the 18 to enlist. Making her a least 44.

[Michael Watkins]

That's the point that I'm trying to make. Captain America has the Red Skull, Thor has Loki, Batman has Ra's al Ghul, The Flash has Professor Zoom, Peter Parker had Norman Osborne. Some heroines (She-Hulk and Wonder Women) have boring, cliche, and forgettable antagonists. The writers seem to spend more time on their internal conflict rather than developing a antagonist that defines the hero.

Marvel needs to give Carol (and She-Hulk, and other heroines) a worthy opponent. Would Moonstone qualify? Maybe Thanos son Thane or the resurrected Sentry since he had a past with Carol.

Moonstone's too tied up with the Thunderbolts. I'd suggest the other "evil ms.marvel" Superia. thematically, she's like a dark mirror of Carol. but there's still Doc Minerva. and they could introduce a new Doomsday Man (maybe resurrect Agent Rossi).

[Tiamatty]

Here's the thing Carol is a Colonel... However it takes on average 22 years to make O-6 in the Airforce, and to become an officer you at lest need a college degree which takes 4 years to earn full time. Also she had no money for college, so she enlisted to pay for school. Assuming she was selected for the Academy Scholarship ( very rare I mind you) and broke her contract early to commission she'd still had to be enlisted for at least 2 years. So that makes 28 years to make Colonel plus the 18 to enlist. Making her a least 44.

Of course, Marvel has never much cared about realism in terms of the military, especially with ranks. So she very well could have made Colonel by 25, because comics. Regardless, she's well into her 30s, and I reject the idea that she shouldn't look like she's well into her 30s.

Moonstone's too tied up with the Thunderbolts. I'd suggest the other "evil ms.marvel" Superia. thematically, she's like a dark mirror of Carol. but there's still Doc Minerva. and they could introduce a new Doomsday Man (maybe resurrect Agent Rossi).

Hmm. Superia would definitely be an interesting choice. I'm not sure I'd want it, though. Superia's thing is Female Supremacy. She's what jackasses like to paint feminists as, a woman who thinks women should be in charge of everything. So if you have her as an antagonist, you're pretty much obligated to do a "both extremes are bad" story, and you know what? Screw that shit. Women are still marginalized, so a story where An Evil Feminist is the villain is just going to be frustrating. (That said, you know where Superia would work beautifully? As an antagonist to a black woman. Because then you can use it to explore White Feminism and its racist aspects.)



As far as good villains, I figure she should have a few. June Covington's awesome, so use her. Give the Chitauri a compelling and dangerous leader for her to play off of, since they keep getting used. Turn Grace Valentine into the leader of a Human Supremacist group hunting aliens. Turn Dr. Minerva into the leader of a violent faction of aliens living on Earth. Have her fight Deathbird again. I don't know, MODOK? Could bring in some Alpha Flight villains, like Dreamqueen or the Plodex (especially since that would be a great reason to bring in Marrina, as long as she's kept in her punk look, because Punk Marrina is amazing).

Also, let her punch another dinosaur. There's been a disturbing lack of dinosaur-punching lately.

[JediKage]

. . . Why would a woman who should realistically be pushing 40 not look like an adult woman?

No, really, late 30s is the youngest she could reasonably be. She debuted in the '60s, as the head of security at a NASA facility. We know she had a fairly successful Air Force career before that. So let's say she signed up when she was 18. She spent a few years doing missions and then left to be head of security at that facility. Honestly, in the original comics, she looked to be late 20s to me (which would still be unrealistically young, but comics), but let's call her 25. Prior to Secret Wars, roughly 13 years had passed since the debut of the Fantastic Four, but then with the Secret Wars timeskip, that has to be at 14 now, maybe even 15. So she would be 39 or 40 years old now.

So, yes, Carol should absolutely be drawn as a woman. Drawing her to look like she's in her early 20s would be ridiculous. She's not in her early 20s. She's in her late 30s, maybe even early 40s.

Just handwave that cosmic powers slows her aging simple enough fix.

[brettc1]

It's related Wonder Woman had a similar push and it got ugly at times... Bug it's about to pay off big of DC... Marvel just needs to show the same resiliency and perseverance...

The obvious difference is that Wonder Woman has had iconic super hero status for at least 40 years. No push required.

[brettc1]

People were saying the same thing about Wonder Woman for years... During that the storyline were she snapped Maxwell Lords neck, the Amazons Attack over, all through Gail Simone's run, and through JMS's run... People on these forums hated her, they suggested Green Lantern replace her in the Trinity... Then she appeared in BVS now everything has changed. Fans are fickle...

They hated her? I don't think so.

They might have hated the WRITING.

I can certainly see the similarities. Both are powerful female characters going up against the male counterparts over their hard line status in dealing with threats. But the thing is, even at her most controversial Wonder Woman never tried to kill Batman or Superman. She never looked like she was out of control the way Carol often did in Civil War. And Amazons Attack, while truly horrendous, did all its damage to the Amazons. Wonder Woman came out looking pretty good.

The reason fans love her in BVS is that she is the best thing in a very mediocre movie.

[CliffHanger2]

Marvel probably would've had an easier time just making a brand new character and giving her the title of CM instead of inverting an already established character. Ya can't just cut someone's hair give em a new costume and change their personality and say" Yeah it's the same character buy it. We changed everything you liked about her tho but buy it..."

[Ianbarreilles]

Marvel probably would've had an easier time just making a brand new character and giving her the title of CM instead of inverting an already established character. Ya can't just cut someone's hair give em a new costume and change their personality and say" Yeah it's the same character buy it. We changed everything you liked about her tho but buy it..."

I don't agree with that I think a lot of Carol's core personality was very much present when she became captain marvel and it still is she's still the same Carol Danvers she always was matter of fact a lot of what she did in civil war ii as questionable and unsettling as it was the idea of pre crime justice and her or anyone enforcing it....but the point is her wanting to stop tragedies before they could happen was very much in character for her and the willingness to prevent those tragedies from happening and of course in a lot of ways that's why she formed the ultimates with black panther.

[Carabas]

That's the point that I'm trying to make. Captain America has the Red Skull, Thor has Loki, Batman has Ra's al Ghul, The Flash has Professor Zoom, Peter Parker had Norman Osborne. Some heroines (She-Hulk and Wonder Women) have boring, cliche, and forgettable antagonists. The writers seem to spend more time on their internal conflict rather than developing a antagonist that defines the hero.

Marvel needs to give Carol (and She-Hulk, and other heroines) a worthy opponent. Would Moonstone qualify? Maybe Thanos son Thane or the resurrected Sentry since he had a past with Carol.

I feel these things have to grow organically. Conscious attempt at creating a big nemesis tends to fail badly.
Even the Joker started out as nothing more than a random villain of the week, who "died" in his first appearance.

[Agent Z]

That's the point that I'm trying to make. Captain America has the Red Skull, Thor has Loki, Batman has Ra's al Ghul, The Flash has Professor Zoom, Peter Parker had Norman Osborne. Some heroines (She-Hulk and Wonder Women) have boring, cliche, and forgettable antagonists. The writers seem to spend more time on their internal conflict rather than developing a antagonist that defines the hero.

Marvel needs to give Carol (and She-Hulk, and other heroines) a worthy opponent. Would Moonstone qualify? Maybe Thanos son Thane or the resurrected Sentry since he had a past with Carol.

Isn't this more or less the approach to Marvel for a decade or so now? Hell, the only villains in the MCU anyone cares for are Loki and some of the Netflix antagonists.