What went wrong with Marvel's push of Carol?

[Ianbarreilles]

If it makes you feel any better, people were really hating on Iron Man after Civil War I. And we all know how that turned out.

So there is no need to worry, comic book characters always have their ups and downs. Most likely, she will be saved from this rut soon after the movie comes out

True despite what I said I think that the future Carol has as captain marvel as their flagship female superhero is a little more promising with her being in the hands of writers like "Margaret stohl mighty captain marvel's writer" and "al Ewing the ultimates and ultimates 2's writer" and they are the best writers to tackle the character at the moment.

I think that much like tony stark her character will inevitably recover and I'm hoping in a way redeems herself much like Tony did I know it'll happen inevitably the redemption story lol.

On the upside at least she's not that bad in spider woman and in bendis's Jessica jones given the disaster bendis made with her character in civil war ii.

[Coal Tiger]

If it makes you feel any better, people were really hating on Iron Man after Civil War I. And we all know how that turned out.

So there is no need to worry, comic book characters always have their ups and downs. Most likely, she will be saved from this rut soon after the movie comes out

Without a doubt, Iron Man was saved by Robert Downey Jr and Marvel's rush to make the comic book version more like the movie version.

I don't think Carol has received the same kind of hate that Tony did post Civil War, but a successful movie could turn things around, at least in how she's portrayed in the comics.

[Nick Miller]

We all know that Marvel's push isn't exactly going as successfully as Marvel may want it to be, so is going wrong, any guesses?

Boring stories, awful art?

[Harpsikord]

I think she's doing fine, and will recover, but I also can't help but wonder if a push of Monica Rambeau as Captain Marvel wouldn't have been more successful.

The market craves a superhero of color in an important role, and that would basically have been built in; plus there would be less people complaining about the idea that Carol isn't Mar-Vell, since Monica never was tied to the concept. It'd make the whole idea of Captain Marvel being the MCU's strongest hero more believable too, since Carol is only really there at Binary levels, and still, not even then.

The problem then comes from the fact that there would no need to make Kamala Khan if Carol Danvers is still Ms Marvel, unless perhaps under a different codename? Marvel Girl was technically open at the time that Kamala came about, since the teenage Jean Grey had decided by then just to go by her given name.

[Ianbarreilles]

I think she's doing fine, and will recover, but I also can't help but wonder if a push of Monica Rambeau as Captain Marvel wouldn't have been more successful.

The market craves a superhero of color in an important role, and that would basically have been built in; plus there would be less people complaining about the idea that Carol isn't Mar-Vell, since Monica never was tied to the concept. It'd make the whole idea of Captain Marvel being the MCU's strongest hero more believable too, since Carol is only really there at Binary levels, and still, not even then.

The problem then comes from the fact that there would no need to make Kamala Khan if Carol Danvers is still Ms Marvel, unless perhaps under a different codename? Marvel Girl was technically open at the time that Kamala came about, since the teenage Jean Grey had decided by then just to go by her given name.

I think captain marvel only really made sense when it wasn't Monica and since Carol is kree and because of her connection to mar-vell having kree dna and the powers of the kree and to an extent mar-vell the original captain marvel that's why it made sense.

I think Monica has more or less accepted Carol as the rightful person to carry on the legacy of captain marvel of the kree and consider marvels effort they have put into having Carol Danvers be their flagship female superhero as captain marvel it wouldn't make sense for them to abandon her just because some people don't like the stories or because of slightly below average sales.

And lastly with kamala khans success as ms marvel and many readers knowing kamala as ms marvel and Carol as captain marvel it would seem despite what critics say Carol is going to remain captain marvel for the foreseeable future and marvel has come too far in establishing kamala as ms marvel and Carol as captain marvel to give up now.

[JediKage]

A combination of factors.

1) The stories aren't especially great. Can any one point to at least one great arc?
2) She wasn't popular to begin with. Yeah characters need push but you expect some natural buzz Carol never had that. Kamala has more Buzz. The only other examples of this are like Wally v Barry (which required Barry to be dead for like 2 decades) and Green Lantern Wars.
3) She is to lack of a better word forced. Marvel didn't have their most iconic women who are X-women and Sue Storm. So they tried to create one because they wanted a WW Expy. Problem being most of marvel's known female avengers don't have high class tanking ability. Probably helps you can easily cut or limit the OG Cap Mar-vell in a way you cant for say Wasp or She-hulk.
4) From a marketing sense it makes sense purely because she has the Company Name.

[Ianbarreilles]

When I say forced, I don't mean her taking on the mantle because, she does have a connection to the original and they did at least give it a setup in AvX. What I mean when I say forced pushing is that, by comparison to the things that Marvel has been able to draw its most success from, her reception has been essentially lukewarm. Other books that have sold similar to hers have ended up canceled yet Marvel continuously keeps the book going and relaunches it. From a marketing standpoint, that's not a good idea especially since even after its numerous relaunches, it's not exactly lighting up the charts. And even when it comes to the marketing for the book, they try to sell her as the world's mightiest hero, something that hasn't been earned for her either in universe or out. That's what I mean when I say that the push is forced. Anything that's really earned its place as a renown book doesn't need that kind of push; it's able to succeed on its own merits.

I can see what you're saying but I view it as marvel and I truly believe this that marvel believes in the character of Carol Danvers as captain marvel and really want her as captain marvel to be their flagship female superhero title even despite if the title is selling below average or if critics don't like the stories or the direction they are taking with the character.

That's why I really don't see it as forced but as marvel not wanting to abandon the character as captain marvel and their desire for it to be their flagship female superhero title again despite if it's selling poorly or below average or if critics are not liking the stories and the direction.

[JediKage]

To be fair Marvel does play favorites. Moon Knight gets chance after Chance despite cancelled titles galore. Meanwhile Blade has had 3 Movies, An Anime Show and Live Action Show. And cant get a comic or any respect in comics. I mean sheesh Elsa gets more play (no offense to the character).

[Wiccan]

I think she's doing fine, and will recover, but I also can't help but wonder if a push of Monica Rambeau as Captain Marvel wouldn't have been more successful.

The market craves a superhero of color in an important role, and that would basically have been built in; plus there would be less people complaining about the idea that Carol isn't Mar-Vell, since Monica never was tied to the concept. It'd make the whole idea of Captain Marvel being the MCU's strongest hero more believable too, since Carol is only really there at Binary levels, and still, not even then.

The problem then comes from the fact that there would no need to make Kamala Khan if Carol Danvers is still Ms Marvel, unless perhaps under a different codename? Marvel Girl was technically open at the time that Kamala came about, since the teenage Jean Grey had decided by then just to go by her given name.

It's sad, but Marvel would never choose a black woman as their first female character to have a movie. Being a woman is already considered a risk for superhero movies. Also, Carol was always more relevant than Monica in the MU. She never even had a solo series, or appeared on games, or cartoons. And Carol has a much more simple and mainstream powerset and look.

And about Mar-Vell... A random person with no connection the original AT ALL is better as a legacy character than one who's closely tied to him? I don't see how that makes sense or why his fans would think that's better.

[brettc1]

We all know that Marvel's push isn't exactly going as successfully as Marvel may want it to be, so is going wrong, any guesses?

Wow. I knew there would be some Carol-hate adter CW2 finished, but two separate threads in 2 days?

[Bossace]

I'm curious not just about Carol but other MCU titles,, will movies sales honestly translate into sales bumps? And if they do will it go past a month or will people just buy a couple older trades and be on to their next interest

[Tiamatty]

I think she's doing fine, and will recover, but I also can't help but wonder if a push of Monica Rambeau as Captain Marvel wouldn't have been more successful.

Ha! You think readers would have been more willing to accept a black woman as one of the most important characters? Not a chance!

Here's the reason Captain Marvel's not doing well: Marvel's readers refuse to read anything that hasn't been continuously published for 50 years. If it's not a classic title, they don't give a ****. And Captain Marvel isn't really one of the classic titles.

Combine that with much of Marvel's audience having a hostility to female-led solos, and the tendency of a significant chunk of the audience to make accusations of "SJW pandering" any time a woman is ever allowed to be better than a man at something. (And if the woman's costume isn't blatantly intended to appeal to male gaze? Even worse.)

So that's the secret: Fear of anything new, and misogyny. Carol had the deck stacked against her from the start. And a different woman in the role would have run into the exact same difficulties.

But once we get closer to the movie? That very well may change. And, hell, maybe Stohl actually will bring in some of her novel audience, too. Could happen.

(Additional thought: A lot of women feel uncomfortable about comic shops. These women may be reading the book online or in trades. We have no way of knowing. It's obviously not doing well enough in trade to be a best-seller, but it might be doing better than we'd expect. And it may be doing better online than we'd expect. We just can't know.)

[brettc1]

This is the comment I left on another thread so I'll copy and paste here since I think it best sums up how I feel about the situation Carol Danvers as captain marvel is in and about her future.

I think the push is important if they being marvel and her fans want the character of Carol Danvers as captain marvel to truly suceed and be popular and really be their flagship female superhero title because I think that she truly can make that a reality despite the direction marvel has taken with her character with the kinda confusing direction they took with the character even before civil war ii when she first back in 2012 finally after decades as ms.marvel took on the mantle of captain marvel and the direction they took her in was to say the least it didn't feel like marvel or Kelly sue knew where they wanted to take the character.

And with civil war ii being a disaster for the character in many readers eyes....well I don't think and believe her future as captain marvel is jeopardized or doomed to fail and that civil war ii or bendis even ruined or destroyed her character simply because of what her character did in that story...I think it's a matter of direction and how the writers handle her character going forward.

I truly believe her character will recover and survive as captain marvel and I hope despite the naysayers and critics that marvel won't give up on Carol Danvers as their flagship female superhero captain marvel.

Here's the thing. For a character to carry the flag, be they make or female, they have to be, on some level, likeable.

Except for her die-hard fans (and not even all of them) I don't think CW2 Carol was likeable. Starting from when Banner died and then really taking off from the end of issue 4, she was quite the opposite.

And that unlikeable Carol popped up all across the Marvel titles. Avengers, Ms Marvel, Iron Man, Spider Woman, and Mant more - all these title had "what civil rights" Carol featured prominently. And of course in the CW 2 title itself. Meanwhile A-Force, a title that actually gave her some sympathy, was cancelled.

What's worse, Carol wasn't even shown as having a glimmer of understanding why so many popular heroes turned on her. At least in CW1 Tony understood why people were fighting him. Col. Danvers seems utterly clueless.

So your trying to make everybody's favourite out of a character many came to actively dislike, and honestly didn't have a huge support base to draw on to begin with.

Should it really be a surprise this plan is struggling to gain traction.

[Tiamatty]

I'm curious not just about Carol but other MCU titles,, will movies sales honestly translate into sales bumps? And if they do will it go past a month or will people just buy a couple older trades and be on to their next interest

GotG was a low-selling title under DnA. When it was relaunched ahead of the movie, it did very well. Black Panther was a fairly mid-selling title, traditionally. When the book was launched around the time of Civil War, it did really well. I doubt Astonishing Ant-Man would've lasted half as long without the movie giving it a bump. Hell, it's not even a movie, but Robbie Reyes Ghost Rider got way bigger after appearing on Agents of SHIELD.

Movies don't get new readers into the shops. But they do generally get existing readers to check the characters out.

[RLAAMJR.]

Carol needs to change her looksto be more likable, Give us back her long flowing hair, the mohawk just makes her less interesting.