What went wrong with Marvel's push of Carol?

[brettc1]

Ha! You think readers would have been more willing to accept a black woman as one of the most important characters? Not a chance!

Here's the reason Captain Marvel's not doing well: Marvel's readers refuse to read anything that hasn't been continuously published for 50 years. If it's not a classic title, they don't give a ****. And Captain Marvel isn't really one of the classic titles.

Combine that with much of Marvel's audience having a hostility to female-led solos, and the tendency of a significant chunk of the audience to make accusations of "SJW pandering" any time a woman is ever allowed to be better than a man at something. (And if the woman's costume isn't blatantly intended to appeal to male gaze? Even worse.)

So that's the secret: Fear of anything new, and misogyny. )

Oh Gawd. It's Ghostbusters all over again.

It's not misogyny to not like a character who is made unlikeable. It happened to Stark the first CW, and last I checked he has a penis.

[Tiamatty]

Here's the thing. For a character to carry the flag, be they make or female, they have to be, on some level, likeable.

Except for her die-hard fans (and not even all of them) I don't think CW2 Carol was likeable.

And that unlikeable Carol popped up all across the Marvel titles. Avengers, Ms Marvel, Iron Man, Spider Woman, and Mant more - all these title had "what civil rights" Carol featured prominently. And of course in the CW 2 title itself. Meanwhile A-Force, a title that actually gave her some sympathy, was cancelled.

So your trying to make everybody's favourite out of a character many came to actively dislike, and honestly didn't have a huge support base to draw on to begin with.

Should it really be a surprise this plan is struggling to gain traction.

I disagree that Carol wasn't likable. And I suspect most readers probably actually found her likable. I think the people on boards like this made up their minds before the book even started coming out that she was going to be portrayed as an evil monster. And so they viewed every single thing in the entire event through that lens, so absolutely nothing she said or did could ever be anything but awful.

The average reader, though? The ones who don't spend their time online analyzing this ****? They saw Carol as a woman who was compassionate, who wanted to protect people, who wanted to be responsible, who was trying to be reasonable, who had her doubts but ultimately believed what she was doing was the best way to keep the world safe. Because that's how Bendis wrote her. For all people bitch about Bendis turning her into a fascist, he really didn't. He wasn't doing a hit-job on her. Bendis likes Carol, and he clearly put a lot of effort into making her sympathetic, and giving readers reason to side with her, even if he personally didn't.

So the people who don't have a knee-jerk hate of Bendis? I'm betting those people found Carol likable. It wouldn't have gotten them to pick up her series, because it's not Amazing Spider-Man or Captain America or any other series that's existed for 50 years. But I think people on here vastly overestimate the number of people who would've been turned off of Carol because of CWII.

As for the other books: Honestly, most of the ones where she was featured prominently don't actually sell much better than she does, anyway. And a lot of them still wanted to treat Carol sympathetically, while noting that she's wrong. Hell, Iron Man's own book featured a cameo from Carol that made it very, very clear that she is a good person, that she is a hero, that she is someone who is very much worth loving, even if she was wrong on this specific issue.

[Ianbarreilles]

Here's the thing. For a character to carry the flag, be they make or female, they have to be, on some level, likeable.

Except for her die-hard fans (and not even all of them) I don't think CW2 Carol was likeable. Starting from when Banner died and then really taking off from the end of issue 4, she was quite the opposite.

And that unlikeable Carol popped up all across the Marvel titles. Avengers, Ms Marvel, Iron Man, Spider Woman, and Mant more - all these title had "what civil rights" Carol featured prominently. And of course in the CW 2 title itself. Meanwhile A-Force, a title that actually gave her some sympathy, was cancelled.

What's worse, Carol wasn't even shown as having a glimmer of understanding why so many popular heroes turned on her. At least in CW1 Tony understood why people were fighting him. Col. Danvers seems utterly clueless.

So your trying to make everybody's favourite out of a character many came to actively dislike, and honestly didn't have a huge support base to draw on to begin with.

Should it really be a surprise this plan is struggling to gain traction.

The point I am making is despite what she did in civil war ii and how readers have been very negatively critically about it hated it I don't think that it was enough to jeopardize her future or destroy her chances of being a success as captain marvel going forward and with marvel's desire to have her be their flagship female superhero title I don't think it's over yet.

Marvel has done so much to establish Carol as captain marvel to give up now...but there is indeed a argument to be had with people not liking the direction marvel has been taking her character with civil war ii and the somewhat pre civil war ii Kelly sue era of captain marvel being hit or miss but again I don't think it's over yet I think her future is promising.

And like I said to another commenter I think Carol is in good hands with Margaret stohl and al ewing and to a certain extent nick spencer.

[Moriarty]

This. Bendis absolutely ruined her. It's going to be quite difficult for her to pull out of that tailspin.

agreed

Boring stories, awful art?

pretty much.

Carol needs to change her looksto be more likable, Give us back her long flowing hair, the mohawk just makes her less interesting.

the haircut is the least of her problems.

[Tiamatty]

Oh Gawd. It's Ghostbusters all over again.

It's not misogyny to not like a character who is made unlikeable. It happened to Stark the first CW, and last I checked he has a penis.

Well, assuming it hasn't fallen off from an STD yet.

While I disagree with Carol being unlikable, that actually wasn't my point in that post. My point is that there is absolutely a significant chunk of Marvel readers who are misogynistic and won't read any comic with a female in the lead role. You can give any female character a solo, most of Marvel's audience will never even consider reading it. And yeah, most male characters fall into that hole, too, but every female character is given a hard pass by most of Marvel's audience. And yeah, misogyny is a part of that, as is the refusal to try anything that hasn't been around for 50 years.

75% of Marvel's audience simply will not give Captain Marvel a shot. It doesn't matter who writes her. It doesn't matter who does the art. It doesn't even matter if it's a different woman in the title role. It could be praised as the best comic Marvel put out, 75% of Marvel's audience won't give a ****. They'd rather read a Captain America run they hate than to try a different title they might love, especially if that different title has a female lead.

[brettc1]

I disagree that Carol wasn't likable.

The average reader, though? The ones who don't spend their time online analyzing this ****? They saw Carol as a woman who was compassionate, who wanted to protect people, who wanted to be responsible, who was trying to be reasonable, who had her doubts but ultimately believed what she was doing was the best way to keep the world safe. Because that's how Bendis wrote her. For all people bitch about Bendis turning her into a fascist, he really didn't. He wasn't doing a hit-job on her. Bendis likes Carol, and he clearly put a lot of effort into making her sympathetic, and giving readers reason to side with her, even if he personally didn't.

So the people who don't have a knee-jerk hate of Bendis? I'm betting those people found Carol likable. It wouldn't have gotten them to pick up her series, because it's not Amazing Spider-Man or Captain America or any other series that's existed for 50 years. But I think people on here vastly overestimate the number of people who would've been turned off of Carol because of CWII.

.

I have to admire the way you can speak so confidently for the people you say don't post here and never will.

[Carabas]

Nothing, her movie hasn't come out.

Ask after it does.

Movies don't push comics sales.

[Wiccan]

Carol needs to change her looksto be more likable, Give us back her long flowing hair, the mohawk just makes her less interesting.

She doesn't have a mohawk. Lol.

[Carabas]

Wow. I knew there would be some Carol-hate adter CW2 finished, but two separate threads in 2 days?

You overlook that there was a ton of Carol-hate before CW2 was even an idea. There actually has been a ton of Carol-hate that started the moment Marvel saud "Hey, let's make her a major player in our universe. And give her a real costume instead of a fetishy latex bathing suit while we're at it."

And as usual with these things, it started months before the first issue of her book even came out.

[Kurolegacy]

I disagree that Carol wasn't likable. And I suspect most readers probably actually found her likable. I think the people on boards like this made up their minds before the book even started coming out that she was going to be portrayed as an evil monster. And so they viewed every single thing in the entire event through that lens, so absolutely nothing she said or did could ever be anything but awful.

The average reader, though? The ones who don't spend their time online analyzing this ****? They saw Carol as a woman who was compassionate, who wanted to protect people, who wanted to be responsible, who was trying to be reasonable, who had her doubts but ultimately believed what she was doing was the best way to keep the world safe. Because that's how Bendis wrote her. For all people bitch about Bendis turning her into a fascist, he really didn't. He wasn't doing a hit-job on her. Bendis likes Carol, and he clearly put a lot of effort into making her sympathetic, and giving readers reason to side with her, even if he personally didn't.

So the people who don't have a knee-jerk hate of Bendis? I'm betting those people found Carol likable. It wouldn't have gotten them to pick up her series, because it's not Amazing Spider-Man or Captain America or any other series that's existed for 50 years. But I think people on here vastly overestimate the number of people who would've been turned off of Carol because of CWII.

As for the other books: Honestly, most of the ones where she was featured prominently don't actually sell much better than she does, anyway. And a lot of them still wanted to treat Carol sympathetically, while noting that she's wrong. Hell, Iron Man's own book featured a cameo from Carol that made it very, very clear that she is a good person, that she is a hero, that she is someone who is very much worth loving, even if she was wrong on this specific issue.

I personally have to disagree with that point. When the event first started, I was on Carol's side as to the use of Ulysses to save lives by changing the future. It was when Carol started to get out of hand and refused to listen to reason even after being presented with the data of Ulysses' powers leading to their friends and innocents getting hurt that I jumped ship to Tony's side.

[Wiccan]

I personally have to disagree with that point. When the event first started, I was on Carol's side as to the use of Ulysses to save lives by changing the future. It was when Carol started to get out of hand and refused to listen to reason even after being presented with the data of Ulysses' powers leading to their friends and innocents getting hurt that I jumped ship to Tony's side.

You're the minority. If you check the threads when CWII was just announced, you'll see everyone was already talking about how "Carol will be ruined just like Tony on CWI".

[brettc1]

You overlook that there was a ton of Carol-hate before CW2 was even an idea. There actually has been a ton of Carol-hate that started the moment Marvel saud "Hey, let's make her a major player in our universe. And give her a real costume instead of a fetishy latex bathing suit while we're at it."

And as usual with these things, it started months before the first issue of her book even came out.

That might be true, in which case CW2 certainly didn't help.

As to the push to make her more prominent, it hastaken some odd turns. As I said on anothervthread, she is now billed as Earths mightiest hero. That's odd to me. Even removing the Hulk, I still can't reasonably rank Carol above Thor (or presently Jane Thor) for sheer power.

[brettc1]

You're the minority. If you check the threads when CWII was just announced, you'll see everyone was already talking about how "Carol will be ruined just like Tony on CWI".

If that true it's likely because the plot was telegraphed before the event even began.

The phrase "Predictive justice" just screams abuse of power, even if you've never seen Minority Report.

[lucius121]

I'm honestly confused by Marvel's reasoning here, if they are trying to make her a popular character than having her face off against some of the most well liked Marvel Heroes seems to be a strange way to achieve that. If you look at the numbers for the Relaunch of her title book you can see that it is not selling well, even her team books are suffering. It's clear she has die hard fans but she is not generating mass appeal.

[brettc1]

I'm honestly confused by Marvel's reasoning here, if they are trying to make her a popular character than having her face off against some of the most well liked Marvel Heroes seems to be a strange way to achieve that. If you look at the numbers for the Relaunch of her title book you can see that it is not selling well, even her team books are suffering. It's clear she has die hard fans but she is not generating mass appeal.

Maybe they think if everyone is talking about her, it must be good.

Again, it worked for the new Ghostbusters movie.

Oh, wait...