What went wrong with Marvel's push of Carol?

[John Ossie]

Wrong thread

[Marvel/DC Fan]

Your posts are unbelievable. I had to read it twice to make sure that my eyes are in working condition. I cannot believe that you can continually get away with you hateful venomous posts. You should just stop stereotyping men in general.

So shocked at your attitude. Unbelievable. Can't even write back a response. What a crazy post.

I get a kick out of angry SJW posts like that. It is pretty funny to me because I was reading stuff like Dazzler and Ms Marvel back in the late 70's early 80's when I was around 8-10 years old. I don't follow any of the current Carol Danvers books because I tried a few issues and they were not very good in my opinion. That is more likely the real reason why many people don't read it. But no, someone has to chalk it all up to misogyny. Also, the old Ms Marvel series went to 23 issues, have any of the current launches gone that far?

[electr1cgoblin]

Sometimes I think that movie success and comic success are related, and sometimes I don't.

"Ant Man" did pretty well at the box office and got pretty decent reviews, too, but that success didn't translate into comic success.

"Suicide Squad" did very well at the box office (despite a critical pounding) and it's comic and pretty much everything Harley is booming.

Justice League is coming up and their book is selling well.

Now, how much of this is interconnected, who knows? Harley was popular before Suicide Squad, but the team was middling at best. Batman and Superman sell very well now, but is that because of the movie or because they are DC's long time flagship characters? Or is it because their creative teams are strong?

Bottom line: a bad showing by Carol in the comics doesn't mean she'll fail at the box office. I'm beginning to think that pretty much ANY Marvel movie property is going to do well because of the brand and the incredible push they give it. While it might not hit "Civil War" numbers, I'd be very surprised if it bombed.

If you are just talking about Carol's failure to launch as Marvel's flagship comic character, I'd have to say it's a failure on the creators' part. For me, she was an extremely likable character in Busiek's Avengers. Now, from what I read, she is less so.

[Crimz]

Reader's just seem to be resistant to Marvel's pushing her for various reasons. Plus many fans have their own personal favourites that they would prefer to be pushed as the flagship female.

I think that Marvel can't use a major thing that is needed and that all iconic superheroes got to become what they are now. Luck. It's the only thing that can't be measured or assured.

I understand and at the same time don't understand the clamoring for characters to be the flagship female. All it leads to is overexposure and being dragged into any stupid event, leading to poor characterization. Just look at CWII, many people said it made Carol seem horrible. But at the same time, Marvel is severely lagging behind DC when it comes to female led books and something has to be done.

[Moon Ronin]

Reader's just seem to be resistant to Marvel's pushing her for various reasons. Plus many fans have their own personal favourites that they would prefer to be pushed as the flagship female.

I think that Marvel can't use a major thing that is needed and that all iconic superheroes got to become what they are now. Luck. It's the only thing that can't be measured or assured.

I understand and at the same time don't understand the clamoring for characters to be the flagship female. All it leads to is overexposure and being dragged into any stupid event, leading to poor characterization. Just look at CWII, many people said it made Carol seem horrible. But at the same time, Marvel is severely lagging behind DC when it comes to female led books and something has to be done.

Squirrel Girl, Scarlet Witch, Black Widow, Moon Girl, Riri, Carol, The new Wasp, Ms. Marvel, Hell Cat, She Hulk, Wolverene, Gamora, Hawkeye, Jessica Jones, Mighty Thor, Silk, Spider-Gwen, Gwenpool...

to, Bat Girl, Bat Woman, Wonder Woman, Harley, Super Girl, Super Woman and I guess you can count Raven right now.

Not really seeing your point there

I

[brettc1]

Squirrel Girl, Scarlet Witch, Black Widow, Moon Girl, Riri, Carol, The new Wasp, Ms. Marvel, Hell Cat, She Hulk, Wolverene, Gamora, Hawkeye, Jessica Jones, Mighty Thor, Silk, Spider-Gwen, Gwenpool...

to, Bat Girl, Bat Woman, Wonder Woman, Harley, Super Girl, Super Woman and I guess you can count Raven right now.

Not really seeing your point there

I

I have to admit I can.

DC's women led books have legs. Wonder Woman, Birds of Prey, Harley Quinn, Supergirl - these books have staying power. Even Bombshells is into its second year.

Carol has had relaunch after relaunch. Mockingbird lasted eight issue. Fearless Defenders and A-Force were both cancelled after a year or less. Spider-Woman is hanging in there but will likely not get into the 20's despite brilliant writing. She-Hulk is back in alead but for how long? If Black Widow, arguably there most recognized female character right now, got a run of longer than 2years I can't remember it.

Marvel has an observable pattern of publishing women led titles and then pulling them before they can get any traction. About the only exceptions are books where the male lead has been replaced by a female alternative, like Thor. But everyone knows that will not last.

[Captain Craig]

Sometimes I think that movie success and comic success are related, and sometimes I don't.

"Ant Man" did pretty well at the box office and got pretty decent reviews, too, but that success didn't translate into comic success.

True. I will point out that the only reason Ant-Man vol.1 by Nick Spencer was cancelled at #5 + an Annual I think was due to Secret Wars cause they relaunched the book with Spencer again and it went to 13 or 14 issues(like majority B/C list tier Marvel books in this era). Not a bad combined Scott Lang as Ant-Man solo run at all.
I think the movie DID allow an audience to want to stay with the title actually.

[Mutant God]

They only pushed her, not her villains, supporting characters or any storylines, they just push her

[Crimz]

Squirrel Girl, Scarlet Witch, Black Widow, Moon Girl, Riri, Carol, The new Wasp, Ms. Marvel, Hell Cat, She Hulk, Wolverene, Gamora, Hawkeye, Jessica Jones, Mighty Thor, Silk, Spider-Gwen, Gwenpool...

to, Bat Girl, Bat Woman, Wonder Woman, Harley, Super Girl, Super Woman and I guess you can count Raven right now.

Not really seeing your point there

I

And how many of those books will last as long or sell as much as their DC counterparts?

[Moon Ronin]

And how many of those books will last as long or sell as much as their DC counterparts?

I will consed to the point that DC is quality and Marvel in quantity.

I have to admit I can.

DC's women led books have legs. Wonder Woman, Birds of Prey, Harley Quinn, Supergirl - these books have staying power. Even Bombshells is into its second year.

Carol has had relaunch after relaunch. Mockingbird lasted eight issue. Fearless Defenders and A-Force were both cancelled after a year or less. Spider-Woman is hanging in there but will likely not get into the 20's despite brilliant writing. She-Hulk is back in alead but for how long? If Black Widow, arguably there most recognized female character right now, got a run of longer than 2years I can't remember it.

Marvel has an observable pattern of publishing women led titles and then pulling them before they can get any traction. About the only exceptions are books where the male lead has been replaced by a female alternative, like Thor. But everyone knows that will not last.

I also think Marvel tries to push too much out at the same time leaving some good covered up by events and such

I think it is more to do with the fact that DC gets actual comic book writers for their most of their books, I don't think Jane Thor would have lasted if Jason was not in the lead also.

[electr1cgoblin]

True. I will point out that the only reason Ant-Man vol.1 by Nick Spencer was cancelled at #5 + an Annual I think was due to Secret Wars cause they relaunched the book with Spencer again and it went to 13 or 14 issues(like majority B/C list tier Marvel books in this era). Not a bad combined Scott Lang as Ant-Man solo run at all.
I think the movie DID allow an audience to want to stay with the title actually.

Sorry, I was referencing "Astonishing Ant Man" which is the most enjoyable title I've read from Marvel in AGES, but the numbers just aren't there to keep it going, even if Marvel didn't have some unfathomable policy of never letting books go beyond 20 issues or so.

[SlimeBeherit]

And how many of those books will last as long or sell as much as their DC counterparts?

What Marvel series do we see lasting longer than any DC book? It's been a while since any Marvel book went past the 30 issue mark.

I guess the only way to find out is to add up all the issues sold by women led books by Marvel and those by DC.

[victor borkowski]

agreed. she has been an avenger for decades so she has some visibility. the push to make her Captain Marvel was a good move, getting away from the sexist code name and bathing suit costume. she was always a soldier and the part of her past has now been brought forward a lot more. her solo series was great, but the last two relaunches have suffered from too much head office interference. CW 2 was horrible for her character. she needs a good writer to stick with the book to develop the character better and integrate her more into the MU in a natural way. she rarely references her time with the X-men, stuff like that should a major part of her character development.

[lordozone]

Boring stories, mediocre writers. That's it. And yes, Civil War II didn't helped. Every characters can become a fan-favorite, Marvel need to let her be written by people not chosen because of their gender but because of their Talent.
For example, have you seen what Aaron has done with Jane-Thor, a concept who with a lesser writer could have been totally stupid ? Give him Captain Marvel. Hey, you can even let Bendis write her, at least the first issues will be good before going absolutely nowhere. She needs an A-list writer to become an A-list character.

[Moon Ronin]

agreed. she has been an avenger for decades so she has some visibility. the push to make her Captain Marvel was a good move, getting away from the sexist code name and bathing suit costume. she was always a soldier and the part of her past has now been brought forward a lot more. her solo series was great, but the last two relaunches have suffered from too much head office interference. CW 2 was horrible for her character. she needs a good writer to stick with the book to develop the character better and integrate her more into the MU in a natural way. she rarely references her time with the X-men, stuff like that should a major part of her character development.

I don't see it as sexist, now if Sue had to go by Mrs. Fantastic that might be considered sexiest. But it would have been awesome if she went back to her Binary code name when she was with the GotG, I personally am not a fan of legacies anyway.