Nu52 Superman: Would it have been better if...

[Sacred Knight]

I think Morrison's origin is quite a bit better. But Birthright is still good, and better than any of the other post-Crisis origins Superman had. For my money though HEAVY Morrison influences are what the current Superman deserves. The smart money goes to heavy Johns influences, but if we're lucky he'll be humble and understand that his origin, well, for the most part blew.

[Ascended]

How did the Morrison /Pak origin compare to the (amazingly Cinematic) Birthright origin by Waid?

Birthright is a damn fine origin. I think it did a great job exploring Clark's post-high school years, which are typically overlooked. And I think some of the small details like the reason behind the glasses, why Superman doesnt wear a mask, and even Clark being a vegetarian, did wonders not only for the structure of the origin but for Clark's personality.

But Morrison's origin is superior. It has a kind of energy and pop to it that Birthright lacks, the t-shirt proto-costume is inspired, and the callback to Clark's early adventures in the Golden Age works not just on a meta level, but also as a strong narrative about superhumanity and where they draw the line in their involvement and why. Morrison's origin, while still very obviously having that unique Morrison flavor, is pretty inclusive and honors all eras of the character without being a slave to the past.

Honestly, Birthright is great until Clark gets to Metropolis. And Morrison's origin takes place after Clark has arrived. My ideal origin would combine these two.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

The first four months or so of Action were pretty great. I mean, Kentville and Superman holding up those chains to prevent the cops from going nuts on the residents? That was badass as hell. And I agree that the concept behind Truth; Clark having lost everything and having to get by on grit and determination, is so loaded with potential it could fuel its own line of titles for generations. But as usual with Superman DC dropped the ball and let all that potential crash to the floor.

I'd happily read a continuation of Nuperman that delved into the social crusader/folk tale aspects that Morrison and early Truth were offering. That version of Superman holds a whole lot of appeal for me, its topical, and as much as Im enjoying Tomasi's Superdad, I still miss the Superman who would tackle corrupt cops as readily as alien invaders (after diplomacy fails, of course, dude's not 100% a bully).

Agreed, excluding the depowered Superman angle. I'm sick and tired of that crap.

So how long do you think it'll take until DC screws this up?

These are the same guys who have been driving Clark into the dirt for the last decade and a half. Their track records speak for themselves, and as much as Im enjoying Tomasi right now, I figure its only a matter of time until they screw Superman again. No one in charge, with the possible exception of Jim Lee, seems to have any idea of who Superman is or how to handle him right. So unless something has changed behind the scenes that we haven't heard about Im figuring this bright period wont last too much longer (a year and a half of quality seems to be their limit)

Like Sacred Knight said, until people get bored of the Superdad stuff. They'll try at least to keep things going smoothly until after they establish Superman's new status quo, whatever that ends up being. I mean, it's DC's favorite mechanism, right? "When things go poorly with Superman, let's reboot him". Alternatively, it will last as long as editorial doesn't get too nosy and restrictive. Meaning, it won't last long.

Too bad Morrison got the editorial position at the Heavy Metal Mag.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

RE: Superman's origin. I agree with Ascended. A mix between Morrison and Waid's origins would be great. Of course, it would have to include my own embellishments and details.

[Ascended]

Agreed, excluding the depowered Superman angle. I'm sick and tired of that crap.

There are three things that would make a de-powered Superman viable for me. Otherwise I agree that it's been sorta played out.

First; even at his lowest possible power he's still beyond human. Golden Age levels; leaping tall buildings, throwing trucks, shrugging off everything but high-end firepower....give me that, not a Superman who I could beat arm-wrestling.

Second; with a low powered Superman you can do the social crusader stories easier because it's no longer so uneven; a corrupt politician actually has a chance of stopping Superman, or at least dissolving the evidence enough to win a court battle. So give me plenty of stories of Superman fighting for the little guy and sticking it to the man.

Third; I still want to see Superman deal with his usual threats as well. How does a low-powered Superman deal with Darkseid? Or Parasite? Or Lobo? Or Brainiac? You can really sell the idea that Superman is more than his powers and is the greatest there ever was or will be when he's defeating cosmic-level villains through ingenuity, grit, daring, and intelligence. And maybe a little Kryptonian science on the side.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

There are three things that would make a de-powered Superman viable for me. Otherwise I agree that it's been sorta played out.

First; even at his lowest possible power he's still beyond human. Golden Age levels; leaping tall buildings, throwing trucks, shrugging off everything but high-end firepower....give me that, not a Superman who I could beat arm-wrestling.

Second; with a low powered Superman you can do the social crusader stories easier because it's no longer so uneven; a corrupt politician actually has a chance of stopping Superman, or at least dissolving the evidence enough to win a court battle. So give me plenty of stories of Superman fighting for the little guy and sticking it to the man.

Third; I still want to see Superman deal with his usual threats as well. How does a low-powered Superman deal with Darkseid? Or Parasite? Or Lobo? Or Brainiac? You can really sell the idea that Superman is more than his powers and is the greatest there ever was or will be when he's defeating cosmic-level villains through ingenuity, grit, daring, and intelligence. And maybe a little Kryptonian science on the side.

Not bad, actually. But the problem I see with it, beyond it being used to death (I mean, how many times have we seen a depowered Superman?), is that I have the impression that writers just CAN'T write a fully-powered Kal. I mean, why do you need to depower him in order to show he's a hero (going beyond points 2 and 3 of your post, of course)?

Also, I've always seen him as a gateway to the most incredible adventures. I think it was you the one who talked about the roles of each JL member on another thread. I find it hard to reconcile Superman's role of being the ultimate guy in terms of raw power, and the one you call when an evil interdimensional/cosmic entity threatens all of reality when he can be depowered every other day.

[Ascended]

Not bad, actually. But the problem I see with it, beyond it being used to death (I mean, how many times have we seen a depowered Superman?), is that I have the impression that writers just CAN'T write a fully-powered Kal. I mean, why do you need to depower him in order to show he's a hero (going beyond points 2 and 3 of your post, of course)?

Well, of course you dont have to de-power Superman to show his heroism. I do think however that there's a feeling among the general public that Superman is too dependent on his powers, so taking them away *might* be (in part) an attempt to prove that misconception wrong. Sort of like when they tackle the Aquaman jokes head-on Orin's title (does anyone call him Orin anymore?).

But I do agree that a lot of Super-writers can't seem to handle Clark at his uptmost limits, which is a much bigger problem than the de-powering thing. If they could write Clark properly they wouldnt have to de-power in the first place. I dont think that's writers in general though, as people like Morrison, Ewing, Hickman, Pak, and others have all written some crazy high-concept stuff fitting for the Man of Tomorrow, but the people that DC typically puts on Superman often lack the imagination and scope the character demands.

Which is total BS and proof that someone new needs to step in to fix the recipe. Whether the root of the problem lies with WB (Superman has always been a corporate driven entity and WB seem to resent him these days) or the current management at DC (we know they dont get him but they might not be the root cause) Superman isn't going to overcome these issues without new vision and a new set of editorial mandates to keep Clark aimed in the right direction.

Also, I've always seen him as a gateway to the most incredible adventures. I think it was you the one who talked about the roles of each JL member on another thread. I find it hard to reconcile Superman's role of being the ultimate guy in terms of raw power, and the one you call when an evil interdimensional/cosmic entity threatens all of reality when he can be depowered every other day.

Yeah that was me. I dont think that being de-powered absolutely nullifies that "cosmic hero" role but it sure as hell does complicate matters a whole lot.

[Atomic Man]

Birthright is a damn fine origin. I think it did a great job exploring Clark's post-high school years, which are typically overlooked. And I think some of the small details like the reason behind the glasses, why Superman doesnt wear a mask, and even Clark being a vegetarian, did wonders not only for the structure of the origin but for Clark's personality.

But Morrison's origin is superior. It has a kind of energy and pop to it that Birthright lacks, the t-shirt proto-costume is inspired, and the callback to Clark's early adventures in the Golden Age works not just on a meta level, but also as a strong narrative about superhumanity and where they draw the line in their involvement and why. Morrison's origin, while still very obviously having that unique Morrison flavor, is pretty inclusive and honors all eras of the character without being a slave to the past.

Honestly, Birthright is great until Clark gets to Metropolis. And Morrison's origin takes place after Clark has arrived. My ideal origin would combine these two.

I agree that the Morrison and Waid origins would work beautifully together. It's not surprising, given their shared vision of Superman and what elements are essential to the mythos.

I'd like to see not only a blend of these two origins, but the return of the Kents as well. I know that's probably not going to happen, but I grew to love those characters and it would be quite the emotional reunion for Clark to learn they're alive and for them to meet their grandson.

[manofsteel1979]

I agree that the Morrison and Waid origins would work beautifully together. It's not surprising, given their shared vision of Superman and what elements are essential to the mythos.

I'd like to see not only a blend of these two origins, but the return of the Kents as well. I know that's probably not going to happen, but I grew to love those characters and it would be quite the emotional reunion for Clark to learn they're alive and for them to meet their grandson.

It's possible Martha makes a return at some point, as she was alive preFlashpoint, but I think Jonathan will stay dead, at least in present day. Johns is still at DC and I don't see him allowing them to undo that part of things.Besides that's the status quo of virtually every live action Superman media of note. ( Donner ,DCEU, Smallville, George Reeves AOS etc)

[TheCape]

It's possible Martha makes a return at some point, as she was alive preFlashpoint, but I think Jonathan will stay dead, at least in present day. Johns is still at DC and I don't see him allowing them to undo that part of things.Besides that's the status quo of virtually every live action Superman media of note. ( Donner ,DCEU, Smallville, George Reeves AOS etc)

That's probably for the best, i'm very indiferent towards the Kents being alive or not, but i think that at least Martha being alive can satify both camps. Clark still learns the lesson about power, but has a parent to chill out from time to time. Besides he needs to dump Kara or Conner with somebody, so she is also usefull

[Atomic Man]

It's possible Martha makes a return at some point, as she was alive preFlashpoint, but I think Jonathan will stay dead, at least in present day. Johns is still at DC and I don't see him allowing them to undo that part of things.Besides that's the status quo of virtually every live action Superman media of note. ( Donner ,DCEU, Smallville, George Reeves AOS etc)

You're probably right about Johns not wanting Pa Kent back, but I miss Pa a lot, especially in light of how the character was butchered beyond recognition in MoS.

That's probably for the best, i'm very indiferent towards the Kents being alive or not, but i think that at least Martha being alive can satify both camps. Clark still learns the lesson about power, but has a parent to chill out from time to time. Besides he needs to dump Kara or Conner with somebody, so she is also usefull

I'd still like both, but getting Martha back would be better than nothing at all.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Well, of course you dont have to de-power Superman to show his heroism. I do think however that there's a feeling among the general public that Superman is too dependent on his powers, so taking them away *might* be (in part) an attempt to prove that misconception wrong. Sort of like when they tackle the Aquaman jokes head-on Orin's title (does anyone call him Orin anymore?).

But I do agree that a lot of Super-writers can't seem to handle Clark at his uptmost limits, which is a much bigger problem than the de-powering thing. If they could write Clark properly they wouldnt have to de-power in the first place. I dont think that's writers in general though, as people like Morrison, Ewing, Hickman, Pak, and others have all written some crazy high-concept stuff fitting for the Man of Tomorrow, but the people that DC typically puts on Superman often lack the imagination and scope the character demands.

Which is total BS and proof that someone new needs to step in to fix the recipe. Whether the root of the problem lies with WB (Superman has always been a corporate driven entity and WB seem to resent him these days) or the current management at DC (we know they dont get him but they might not be the root cause) Superman isn't going to overcome these issues without new vision and a new set of editorial mandates to keep Clark aimed in the right direction.

Wholeheartedly agree with this.

Yeah that was me. I dont think that being de-powered absolutely nullifies that "cosmic hero" role but it sure as hell does complicate matters a whole lot.

Yeah, I checked after I posted. Great stuff.

It may not nullify that role but it would, at the very least, severely diminish it. If Superman can't face Darkseid, why call him anyway?

[Ascended]

That's probably for the best, i'm very indiferent towards the Kents being alive or not, but i think that at least Martha being alive can satify both camps. Clark still learns the lesson about power, but has a parent to chill out from time to time. Besides he needs to dump Kara or Conner with somebody, so she is also usefull

I'd much rather the Kents be dead in the present day, but if Martha is still around I could accept it. If I had to.

[Sacred Knight]

Kents should stay dead, imo. In fact, if you want an elder supporting cast member, I say go with Sam. Make him Jon's only grandparent. There's lots of stuff to work with there, if Sam were to find out his only grandchild was the son of superman thus half alien. There'd be a lot of story to tell in him coming to grips with that, and exploring his relationship with his grandson, and have it make him a better man. Get rid of the total heel turn crap in New Krypton, though.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Kinda afraid to ask: what happened in New Krypton?