Why are the marvel books failing? Plus: Diversity problems in marvel books?!!!!!

[SlimeBeherit]

I'm an old-time fan. I bought (well, my grandfather did) Kirby FFs off the rack. I have been buying Marvel and DC superhero comics for decades. Here's the thing. We're decreasing in number. Those that bought Marvel in 1967 and 1977 have moved on. Numbers in 1987, 1997, and 2007 dropped. A company dealing with a decreasing market is probably going to want to expand into other areas. The reliance on diversity of characters is a big part of that.

When Cap, Thor, Iron Man, Hulk, Fury, and Wolverine are all replaced at the same time, I think "wait, everybody now?" is a fair question to ask. But these aren't new plots. Just about everybody's been replaced before. Remember Jim Rhodes, John Walker, and Eric Masterson? The fact that they're all coinciding is either a lack of originality or a deep underlying plan on Marvel's part.

Steve, Don, Tony, and Bruce are all coming back to as comfortable a position as they were ever in. It's a superhero comic, that's what they do.

Nice to see that not all the older fans think it's doom and gloom. As a fan of the many of the new characters, I do hope the classic characters return eventually, but some people make it seem like they've been gone forever. Tony Stark barely hit the bench like a month ago. Not only that some older characters have made a return as well (Richard Rider seems to be coming back).

I guess the MCU has sparked interest in the Avengers, and when you go to the comic side of things they are nowhere to be found in current comics. But if Marvel does it right then they should be doing their best to reprint and promote many of the older stories that influenced the films in the first place. I suppose some comics with older art are a harder sell but when the Ant-Man movie came out I bought the Scott Lang trade and I thoroughly enjoyed seeing his beginnings. On top of that I got a good kick when seeing Captain America: Civil War because it had a specific moment ripped directly from that collection (Iron mans coolant flushing Ant Man out of his suit) which had just released months before. So I hope older fans can still find something to read that they can enjoy while Marvel experiments... but also yall should give the new stuff a shot. Not all the new stuff is good either, but there some gems out there.

[CaptCleghorn]

I don't actually think we are disappearing.

The market has simply diversified.

One cannot simply look at single month floppy sales. You have to look at digital and trades.

I'm talking a timeframe of decades. There's no way adding up digital, trades, etc. is going to equal what superhero comic numbers were in the late 20th century.

[skyvolt2000]

How about creating stories FOR the fans then? After all, we're the ones buying the things.

WHO are the fans that you are talking about?

Right now we got folks who want to SEE a Fantastic Four book on the shelves instead of Moon Girl-NOT buy it.

A lot of this is I don't like who is on the cover.

There is no proof Marvel sales will go up if everybody came back. NONE.

Because Marvel can toss out those books and guess what the same folks crying for them will make 99 excuses to not buy them.

Wolverine book written the same way Black Panther's is-where he is a supporting cast in his own book and written as INFERIOR?

Or A New Warriors book written like Hal Jordan & the GLC-where Rich Ryder is written as background fodder like John Stewart?

Or a Marvel book does what Batman did with Duke Thomas-just add a black boy to the cast. His book has calls for boycotts over him.

Folks will find excuses.

[ed2962]

I was worried about that happening by the way he signed off at the end. I wonder how long it will be till another one of these is posted again.

I give it about 6 weeks after whenever this thread quiets down.

[Iron Maiden]

Right now we got folks who want to SEE a Fantastic Four book on the shelves instead of Moon Girl-NOT buy it.

A lot of this is I don't like who is on the cover.

I don't know what's up with your anti-Fantastic Four campaign but Hickman proved people will buy it. In fact most of his epic New Avenger / Secret Wars arc was loaded with Fantastic Four characters. It was practically a Valentine to it. Secret Wars sold on the average of 200,000 an issue IIRC and sometimes there were second printings.

From Secret Wars to Star Wars, what comics sold best in 2015

When the title dropped in sales it was because the stories weren't drawing in the fans. They lost the new fans Hickman brought in and a lot of the older ones too. That happened in Fraction's run. Hickman was able to keep two Fantasatic Four titles going, which hasn't happened since the brief time when their was a Fantastic Four Unlimited series in the late 1990s as I recall.

Kind of like the "I you build it they will come" ....if you write it well, we will read it.

[Colossus1980]

Biggest problem to me is the 4 dollar price tag that is basically a 15 minute at the most read. I can see why teens stay away from comic books. Apps and video games offer a better value for the younger generation IMO.

Comics are too expensive a hobby to get into. No wonder so many titles are failing. Never mind the diversity issue. It's mainly economics.

[Darrin Kelley]

The constant reliance on publicity stunts, sales tricks, and artificial price inflation.

Recycling old stories. Instead of actually writing good new ones.

Hiring from the exact same pool of people every other major comic book company does. instead of bringing in new creative voices.

Marvel, IDW, DC, Dark Horse, Dynamite, etc. They hire all the same people. It turns the majority of the industry's creative side into one big isolated echo chamber. Instead of actually promoting real substancial growth and creation.

The little guys. The true indies. That's where new material is being born and will flourish. Not the big players.

This is why the market is contracting. With the big guys. They just deliver more of the same. And that's proving to not be good enough.

This isn't just a Marvel thing. This is an industry wide thing. And it will inevitably hit critical mass.

[Smoov-E]

Biggest problem to me is the 4 dollar price tag that is basically a 15 minute at the most read. I can see why teens stay away from comic books. Apps and video games offer a better value for the younger generation IMO.

Comics are too expensive a hobby to get into. No wonder so many titles are failing. Never mind the diversity issue. It's mainly economics.

Apps and video games do not offer better value for their money and that has been known since Pong, the same complaints aimed at comics are within gaming as well

[skyvolt2000]

Quote Originally Posted by Colossus1980
Biggest problem to me is the 4 dollar price tag that is basically a 15 minute at the most read. I can see why teens stay away from comic books. Apps and video games offer a better value for the younger generation IMO.

Comics are too expensive a hobby to get into. No wonder so many titles are failing. Never mind the diversity issue. It's mainly economics.

Yes and no.

Kids are willing to read them. The issue is WHO is on the cover.

Teens and kids have no issue with a book about Moon Girl, Mosaic, Inhumans, Squirrel Girl, Wally West, Static, John Stewart, Fantastic Four, Ms Marvel or Miles.

Look at Manga-a ton of no names and kids will fight you tooth and nail over those.

Adults it is a different story as we have seen here.

A lot of kids and teens do NOT care to read about Batman, Deadpool, Peter Parker, Hal Jordan, Barry Allen or Superman. Everyone else is a different story.

So maybe a change of book format is needed.

Pander to the entitlement crew with floppies of a certain skin tone.

Graphic novels for everyone else.

[C_haos]

Manga is different from comics and I wouldn't call the authors no names. Where as comics depend on status quo and illusion of change in most manga things happen and change and there's no going back to status quo. The coolest thing to me since the latest BP book was when Marvel had the rotating creative teams on ASM and it was coming out 3 monthly if I remember correctly it was dope to me because even though it kinda went back to status quo it didn't the stories were different characters were evolving and I didn't feel like I had to read a dozen other titles. The supporting cast was solid and it felt like there was a definite conclusion to certain arcs/stories this is also the reason I was a fan of DC's 52 and Seven Soldiers #goodtimes

[Crimz]

I don't know what's up with your anti-Fantastic Four campaign but Hickman proved people will buy it. In fact most of his epic New Avenger / Secret Wars arc was loaded with Fantastic Four characters. It was practically a Valentine to it. Secret Wars sold on the average of 200,000 an issue IIRC and sometimes there were second printings.

From Secret Wars to Star Wars, what comics sold best in 2015

When the title dropped in sales it was because the stories weren't drawing in the fans. They lost the new fans Hickman brought in and a lot of the older ones too. That happened in Fraction's run. Hickman was able to keep two Fantasatic Four titles going, which hasn't happened since the brief time when their was a Fantastic Four Unlimited series in the late 1990s as I recall.

Kind of like the "I you build it they will come" ....if you write it well, we will read it.

I thought I was the only one who noticed that. What's Moon Girl got to do with wanting the FF back?

[Darrin Kelley]

As of this latest trend of re-branding old characters identities to new characters for the sake of "diversity".

It's been tried before. Countless times. It never works. It never sticks. And it is always reversed as soon as the "controversy" dies down.

I will tell you what will work. But the big companies refuse to do it with any shred of competancy.

That is: Make new diverse characters. And put the bank properly behind them to properly promote them. Truly invest the company's future in them. And treat them like the front line stars they truly deserve to be.

[Smoov-E]

As of this latest trend of re-branding old characters identities to new characters for the sake of "diversity".

It's been tried before. Countless times. It never works. It never sticks. And it is always reversed as soon as the "controversy" dies down.

I will tell you what will work. But the big companies refuse to do it with any shred of competancy.

That is: Make new diverse characters. And put the bank properly behind them to properly promote them. Truly invest the company's future in them. And treat them like the front line stars they truly deserve to be.

Damn shame that's happened already a lot of times and fans true to form don't show up to support it, yes some do show up but a lot of the ones screaming they'd support a original or known character of color getting a shot are the first ones to make a excuse on why they will not support it

"I'd buy it but man $3.99 is too much"
"I've never heard of this creative team before and I can't take that risk"
"Marvel is shoving this character down my throat"
"Why can't this sound like >insert plot from decades ago<"

[LOSTie-chan]

A common opinion is that it isn't that people don't want change or diversity it's just that this is all just too much at once. And I'd have to agree. It's hard to keep up with all the changes, events, rebranding, re-numberings and new legacies that Marvel is pumping out.

[Darrin Kelley]

Damn shame that's happened already a lot of times and fans true to form don't show up to support it, yes some do show up but a lot of the ones screaming they'd support a original or known character of color getting a shot are the first ones to make a excuse on why they will not support it

I don't buy comics because a character is a "person of color". I buy the comics if I find the star character(s) are genuinely likeable.

If the biggest selling point of a character is: That they are a "person of color". Then I likely won't bother with it. I want to know and enjoy the person the character is, first and foremost. Their ethnicity doesn't matter to me one bit in that.

I really dislike ethnic exploitation. It casts characters as objects of stereotypes. Rather than portraying them as the truly interesting people they are supposed to be.