The Robins Comic

[millernumber1]

I agree that Steph's time as Robin should at least be canon. But considering not even all of the official Robins have their time as Robin acknowledged in current continuity, I believe that's more important right now. I'd rather her time as Batgirl be acknowledged. That was the character's highest point, the way Dick as Batman was his highest point.

I agree that Steph's time as Batgirl was her highest point - and I'm thrilled that she's getting reprints (I'm really torn on whether I can justify buying the reprints, since I literally just bought her old trades).

Part of my love for Steph as Robin, though, is just how cool she looked as Robin. Damion Scott gave her a really nice look, and the other artists had so much fun with it.

(also agree that DickBats was amazing.)

[josai21]

I love the idea, but as has been said you would need a goodwriter to make it work. It would have to be someone who loves all of the characters and understand what makes each of them tick.

I will say it can be done. We only need to look at the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles to see that a story about four brothers kicking ass is a brilliant concept. Just need the right author.

[Aahz]

I love the idea, but as has been said you would need a goodwriter to make it work. It would have to be someone who loves all of the characters and understand what makes each of them tick.

I actually don't thonk that it would be hard to pull of, at least Dick, Jason and Tim fit (by coincidence ?) very well to the classical types Leader, Lancer and Smart Guy.
But for some reason most writers fail imo to make Jason really work as lancer.

[dietrich]

I love the idea, but as has been said you would need a goodwriter to make it work. It would have to be someone who loves all of the characters and understand what makes each of them tick.

I will say it can be done. We only need to look at the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles to see that a story about four brothers kicking ass is a brilliant concept. Just need the right author.

The thing is that the Turtles were created to compliment each other. The Robins weren't. They all share certain basic "robin characteristics and traits", so to have them compliment each other writers often have to reduce em to single tropes / character types.

[Aahz]

The thing is that the Turtles were created to compliment each other. The Robins weren't. They all share certain basic "robin characteristics and traits", so to have them compliment each other writers often have to reduce em to single tropes / character types.

Leo, Raph and Donny are actually quite similar to Dick, Jason and Tim respectively. And the turtles share also all the same training.

[dietrich]

Leo, Raph and Donny are actually quite similar to Dick, Jason and Tim respectively. And the turtles share also all the same training.

Only when stripped / watered down as i said above and as is often done in crossovers. In their books and at their core they all share the same basic robin qualities eg they are all smart, they are all good detectives, they are all tacticians. They are all proven leaders aside from Damian[yet].

In order to make a particular quality shine in one Robin you have to tone it down/erase it from the others and this is where problems and mis-characterisation set in.

[josai21]

Only when stripped / watered down as i said above and as is often done in crossovers. In their books and at their core they all share the same basic robin qualities eg they are all smart, they are all good detectives, they are all tacticians. They are all proven leaders aside from Damian[yet].

In order to make a particular quality shine in one Robin you have to tone it down/erase it from the others and this is where problems and mis-characterisation set in.

Eh...I think the factor here is Tim.

Dick is charismatic

Jason is angry

Tim is...Smart. Which means you might have to "downplay" Dick and Jason's intelligence. Tim is my favorite Robin, but I can see how that might be a problem. He's no longer the everyman due to experience. Honestly...I see Tim being the dark horse of the group in the sense that he's the one that is too much like Bruce.

[Atlanta96]

Eh...I think the factor here is Tim.

Dick is charismatic

Jason is angry

Tim is...Smart. Which means you might have to "downplay" Dick and Jason's intelligence. Tim is my favorite Robin, but I can see how that might be a problem. He's no longer the everyman due to experience. Honestly...I see Tim being the dark horse of the group in the sense that he's the one that is too much like Bruce.

Tim is still an everyman. He's an everyman who happens to be a super genius. He's still the most average of the Robins in every other way besides intellect. He's humble, he's slightly awkward, he makes sensible decisions and has down to earth relationships, his appeal comes from his relatability and idealism as opposed to Dick's massive charisma or Damian's wacky personality. His genius intellect just gives him a practical function in the Bat-Family, it's still the same old Tim.

I don't believe Drake's experience or over-the-top technical skills make him any less relatable or down to Earth than his old self. Going by personality alone, he's just as much of an average joe as Duke. That's what makes him the heart of the Family, his humanity combined with his great value as a crime fighter.

[dietrich]

Tim is still an everyman. He's an everyman who happens to be a super genius. He's still the most average of the Robins in every other way besides intellect. He's humble, he's slightly awkward, he makes sensible decisions and has down to earth relationships, his appeal comes from his relatability and idealism as opposed to Dick's massive charisma or Damian's wacky personality. His genius intellect just gives him a practical function in the Bat-Family, it's still the same old Tim.

I don't believe Drake's experience or over-the-top technical skills make him any less relatable or down to Earth than his old self. Going by personality alone, he's just as much of an average joe as Duke. That's what makes him the heart of the Family, his humanity combined with his great value as a crime fighter.

Since when did humble, slightly awkward and makes sensible decisions = Everyman? Most people aren't humble or slightly awkward and most people do not make sensible decisions. That's just wishful thinking. We wish most people did those things but in reality they don't.

To say that Tim is the heart of the Bat family is ludicrous and hopefully just a bad joke.

Dick Grayson or Alfred is the heart of the Bat family

[Atlanta96]

Since when did humble, slightly awkward and makes sensible decisions = Everyman? Most people aren't humble or slightly awkward and most people do not make sensible decisions. That's just wishful thinking. We wish most people did those things but in reality they don't.

To say that Tim is the heart of the Bat family is ludicrous and hopefully just a bad joke.

Dick Grayson or Alfred is the heart of the Bat family

You've got to admit his personality is closer to an average person than the others. Many people are awkward or down to Earth without massive egos like Tim. Very few people are as charismatic and fierce as Dick. If Tim can't be an everyman because most people aren't as good and pure as superheroes, then neither can Duke.

Here's the difference between Dick and Tim. Dick is a motivational character, he's an irresistably charming social butterfly, liked by everyone, who likes to support and encourage his allies. Tim is an inspirational character, he sets an example for others with his impressive work and his intelligence, and his humbleness despite his accomplishments. As opposed to directly encouraging the Family like Dick. He's got a powerful mind and big ideas, but his humanity and integrity never went away no matter how smart he got. Even characters who hate his guts rely on his contributions, Tim convinced Bruce Batman needed a Robin. There would be no Bat-Family if it wasn't for his beliefs. Thats why he's the heart.

Of course I'm describing Pre-Flashpoint/Rebirth Tim here, New 52 Red Robin is trash.

[dietrich]

You've got to admit his personality is closer to an average person than the others. Many people are awkward or down to Earth without massive egos like Tim. Very few people are as charismatic and fierce as Dick. If Tim can't be an everyman because most people aren't as good and pure as superheroes, then neither can Duke.

Here's the difference between Dick and Tim. Dick is a motivational character, he's an irresistably charming social butterfly, liked by everyone, who likes to support and encourage his allies. Tim is an inspirational character, he sets an example for others with his impressive work and his intelligence, and his humbleness despite his accomplishments. As opposed to directly encouraging the Family like Dick. He's got a powerful mind and big ideas, but his humanity and integrity never went away no matter how smart he got. Even characters who hate his guts rely on his contributions, Tim convinced Bruce Batman needed a Robin. There would be no Bat-Family if it wasn't for his beliefs. Thats why he's the heart.

Of course I'm describing Pre-Flashpoint/Rebirth Tim here, New 52 Red Robin is trash.

All the Robins are inspirational characters that doesn't make them all the heart of the family. Dick Grayson is the heart of the Bat family.

Tim and Duke have a lot of similarities you're right but Duke a lot more relateable and more of an everyman than Tim because he is less experienced, more human and less over the top. Duke is similar to Tim at the start of his tenure.

[Atlanta96]

All the Robins are inspirational characters that doesn't make them all the heart of the family. Dick Grayson is the heart of the Bat family.

Tim and Duke have a lot of similarities you're right but Duke a lot more relateable and more of an everyman than Tim because he is less experienced, more human and less over the top. Duke is similar to Tim at the start of his tenure.

Yeah, he is similar. Interesting how you bash Tim for being boring and useless but you like Duke, who has less traits overall and has less of a role within the Family. Genuinely curious, do you feel like you need to hate Tim because you're a Damian fan?

Tim is the heart because hes the idealist, the one who has visions for the Bat-Family beyond just being a bunch of crimefighters who bond sometimes. Dick is good for the morale of the Family, he's helped a lot of people on an individual basis. But Tim contributes more to the Family as a whole, he's got a good heart and he thinks big. His work in Detective comics is more than just fancy technology, everything he builds is part of his vision for a greater Bat-Family. It's "Batman needs a Robin" on a massive scale.

He does MORE to inspire than anyone else.

[dietrich]

Yeah, he is similar. Interesting how you bash Tim for being boring and useless but you like Duke, who has less traits overall and has less of a role within the Family. Genuinely curious, do you feel like you need to hate Tim because you're a Damian fan?

Tim is the heart because hes the idealist, the one who has visions for the Bat-Family beyond just being a bunch of crimefighters who bond sometimes. Dick is good for the morale of the Family, he's helped a lot of people on an individual basis. But Tim contributes more to the Family as a whole, he's got a good heart and he thinks big. His work in Detective comics is more than just fancy technology, everything he builds is part of his vision for a greater Bat-Family. It's "Batman needs a Robin" on a massive scale.

He does MORE to inspire than anyone else.

Yes I am a Damian fan but I'm also capable of liking other characters.

Duke is has been growing on me, the scene in Batman #16 increased my interest and made me curious to see more of him with the others. I don't see any reason why he should be excluded from the book. Yes he is kind of boring but I'm curious to see where Synder is going with him.

Tim I still find boring and stale guy doesn't pique my interest what so ever.

Contributing has nothing to do with being the heart.

How can you say he does more to inspire than anyone else when different things inspire different people.
What I find inspirational you might not so you really can't make that statement.

[Atlanta96]

Yes I am a Damian fan but I'm also capable of liking other characters.

Duke is has been growing on me, the scene in Batman #16 increased my interest and made me curious to see more of him with the others. I don't see any reason why he should be excluded from the book. Honestly he is boring but I'm curious to see where Synder is going with him.

Tim I still find boring and stale guy doesn't pique my interest what so ever.

This is the 3rd or 4th time I've heard someone who likes Duke describe him as "boring". I'm intrigued, this completely changes the way I view the character.

Well, Ill agree to disagree with you. I hope that when Tim gets out of limbo, the writing of the character will convince some people that he's actually pretty great. And I really hope we actually do get that Robins team up book.

[Pohzee]

Tim is still an everyman. He's an everyman who happens to be a super genius. He's still the most average of the Robins in every other way besides intellect. He's humble, he's slightly awkward, he makes sensible decisions and has down to earth relationships, his appeal comes from his relatability and idealism as opposed to Dick's massive charisma or Damian's wacky personality. His genius intellect just gives him a practical function in the Bat-Family, it's still the same old Tim.
I don't believe Drake's experience or over-the-top technical skills make him any less relatable or down to Earth than his old self. Going by personality alone, he's just as much of an average joe as Duke. That's what makes him the heart of the Family, his humanity combined with his great value as a crime fighter.

This is what I don't follow. You can't be an everyman and a supergenius. It just doesn't work that way. According to TV Tropes, an everyman is

A character who is mostly a blank state stand in for the audience, made to be empathetic to all. They won't be exceptional; in fact, they will be decidedly average.

Tim has evolved beyond this. He has a distinct personality and skillset. Believe it or not, Dick started out as an audience surrogate for young kids reading comics, but as his character progressed, he became a fully fleshed out character. This is something that happens as Robin's grow out of their mantle.

I understand where you are coming from. I grew up with a life-size wooden cut-out of Tim above my bed that was hand-painted from a projection of an issue of Tim's early run by Norm Breyfogle. I used to like him too. But... the Tim Drake of old was a newbie Robin who was struggled to balance schoolwork and crimefighting, and while bright for his age was decidedly average and by no means a supergenius. The modern Tim Drake is nothing like that. He is a computer-whiz supergenius who simulatneously graduated high school with flying colors well before he was sixteen. He is an Olympic level gymnast and an Oracle level hacker. There is nothing relatable about this Tim Drake, nor is there anything Rebirth can do to make this Tim Drake more relatable. In Rebirth, he was still off to an Ivy League college, designing self-repairing buildings and secret underground railways far more advances than today's tech, and still solved most of his problems with the press of a button on his wrist. Putting him in a Robin costume and having him talk to Stephanie Brown doesn't change any of this.

Tim's current role in the Bat-Family is "The Smart Guy." He can no longer be an audience surrogate: he has been a part of Batman's world for too long. He served as Batman's partner, retired, and came out of retirement to lead a team of teenage superheroes. Tim isn't new at this anymore. While Duke has certain traits similar to an early Tim Drake, Duke still fits the everyman role because he has little experience as a crimefighter and isn't used to this world like Tim is. Tim still has a role, but it is not as an everyman, but as the resident genius.

This is probably why I dislike the modern Tim so much. While I like everyman characters, I loathe supergeniuses in stories. Often, writers are not able to think on the level of the "intelligent" characters they create, so they have them spout off technobabble as they press buttons to resolve a situation. I really don't like the hacker role that Tim has been pushed into. Hackers are the worst concept of any entertainment medium. There is nothing entertaining about watching someone solve a problem by pushing a button, often stretching my suspension of disbelief. Supergenius character archetypes are walking deus ex machinas that are in no way interesting or relatable, and take me completely out of a plot.