Superman and real life events, Superman changing the world, Superman's galaxy

[Francisco]

I've already expressed my ideas of how I think Superman should be developed in the controversial opinions thread. But I'd like to expand on that and also hear what you guys have to say about it.

Tell me how would you handle Superman if you had the green light to portray the real world in his stories. If instead of being tied down by the need of Superman's world to resemble ours you were allowed to have Superman changing the world and influencing it positively and negatively as well within continuity.

I've always thought that Clark Kent and journalism weren't a mere disguise and a convenient setting. I think Clark Kent is just another way in which Superman helps the world to evolve into a higher functioning society. I don't think Clark should be ever (reading your comments I know almost everyone agrees on this)write about Superman. The Superman beat belongs completely to Lois Lane. Clark is all about human interest stories. While Lois interviews powerful politicians, world leaders and high profile celebrities, Clark is writing a small article about some old farmer living in the outskirts of Metropolis and his friendship with a teenager from some small African nation whom are both developing some new agricultural technology.

I think within the DCU Superman should be perceived as a world power comparable to Russia or The United States. Whether he likes it or not whether it is his intention or not, the world should be glad that he is a benevolent force but wary about how much power he possess, and all those toys he has hidden in that fortress of his. I think his diplomatic skills should be showcased a lot. He should have a seat at the United Nations and from time to time he should speak in that forum. There should be a lot of political maneuvering and espionage kind of stuff. People conspiring to undermine Superman's credibility. Vast secret organizations like Intergang and others working overtime through shadow cabinets to destroy Superman. Average folk in the street worried about Superman going nuts. (And Superman proving them wrong at every turn of course)

There still should be the wacky, cosmic adventures. Just as he sets himself to change the world and see humanity become a more morally advanced civilization he also needs to fight big space monsters and tyrants. Protect some peaceful alien civilization about to be decimated by a comet. Explore the underground world and its ancient reptilian civilizations. Prevent a genocidal interstellar war between Rhanians and Tanagarians. I'd have Superman traveling anywhere in the galaxy and faraway under his own power. Forget about the silly spaceships or Superman wearing a spacesuit.

Superman speaks every single language on Earth and almost every language in the milky way. He's so smart he can learn any language on the fly. He is also very technologically savvy. I'd have him doing Mr. Fantastic type of techno/scientific babble. He'll see some alien gizmo and automatically know what it is and explain it to the reader or to whoever is along with him on the ride.

The way I'd do all those things is by gradually upping the ante and showing the progress and the setbacks. At first Metropolis would be a place very similar to Gotham. Due to Superman's actions I'd have the city slowly becoming the city of Tomorrow and the safest city in the planet (If it wasn't for the constant Alien invasions and god wars) Then I'll have Superman turning his attention to the world (wars, famine, disease, natural disasters, political corruption, etc) not simplistic stories in which Superman just punches someone and everything is alright. Complex stuff in which the journalistic skills of Clark Kent and Lois Lane would be needed. Stuff that would make sense and justify the existence of the daily planet as part of the super-myth.
I loved Peace ON Earth by Alex Ross. But something that stung me was the part in which the dictator (the guy looked like Hugo Chavez) took most of the food and Superman just flew away. I know the reasons. I know he did what he thought was the best option. But still I don't think that's what Superman would have done. In a world with Superman around that guy wouldn't dare to walk out of his house. In my mind I can see Superman destroying every ship carrying weapons to that country WITHOUT anybody noticing. (weird victimless accidents) I can see the palace of that tyrant burning to the ground. I can see him leaving the country during the night because he now doesn't have money or weapons to buy or scare his people. I can see the backlash as well. But I can see Superman talking his way out of the situation. I can see the endless possibilities of following up that storyline. What steps would Superman take to prevent a new tyrant from taking over? Is democracy a viable option for that country? What happens when a cosmic threat shows up and Superman is not there to keep the wolves at bay? New characters, average people and costumed superheroes inspired by Superman showing up to fill the void. The possibilities are indeed endless. But what you guys have to say about it. I'm sure I'm missing something.

[Ascended]

I dont see Superman involving himself in politics as much as you do.

The seat on the UN? Considered a world power, or even a rogue world power? Absolutely. I love those ideas. And just so you know, I'm stealing them.

But Superman stepping into the affairs of nations is something that I would tread very, very, very lightly.

I see Superman speaking out, using the UN as his platform, against the social injustices of the world. I see him advocating for aid and resolution to situations like Syria heavily, perhaps even to the point of verbally bullying the UN into action. If he's on the world stage then *that's* his real super power.

But I think it should take extreme measures for him to physically intervene. Even secretly. And only ever as the very last resort. If he has to do that, he's lost the real fight. I look at Clark intervening physically sort of how I look at him killing; he'll do it if he has to, but it takes so much to get him there it practically never happens.

Anyway, yeah, love the ideas. I got something similar floating in my head too. Clark's lifetime on earth and how the world changes. I dont do fanfic but maybe someday I'll find a use for the idea.

[Flash Gordon]

See, I always thought Superman just goes where he's needed. If a humanitarian disaster is occurring, he's there. I don't think he'd wait for anything and sometimes that would get him into trouble. He's a man of action. He takes action, always.

I like him having a relationship with world leaders, but he belongs to the average person. He's a working class hero. Superman will be there beside you in the pits.

[Jon Clark]

I see any attempt by Superman to do the things you describe as being a bad idea. The world is too complex for any one man to run it- no matter how powerful or fast that man might be.

Superman might be able to control Metropolis (assuming he has the general support of the populace and there isn't any conflict with US authority). But the more area he controls the less time he has to actually devote to individual areas, Wipe out the mob in Metropolis and then police the area to prevent thugs from Gotham or Hub City or Keystone from filling the void works as long as Clark is watching over Metropolis 24/7. Once he moves up to try cleaning up several cities he has to reduce the amount of time he spends in Metropolis which over time will allow some criminal - maybe a Tycoon Luthor type to establish a small foothold. At which point Clark either dials back down to deal with this crook and lessens his war on crime elsewhere or Clark accepts that he can't be everywhere and that a little crime in Metropolis is acceptable. And when Clark moves from several cities being cleaned up to trying to straighten up the Northeastern US or the "South" or "Midwest" ... then the same issues arise with how well Superman can maintain his gains in the cities he can no longer devote 24/7 protection to.

And before you point out that he can get help- realize his pool of helpers are the same heroes that can't keep these places crime-free now. Do we assume that once Superman cleans up Gotham that Batman can maintain it- despite not being able to do so before Superman arrived? Or that Barry Allen is willing to accept not having any downtime so he can maintain Superman's crime-free Central/Keystone cities 24/7? That the Guardians are willing to let Hal, John, Guy, etc become part of Earth's police force?

I once had the germ of an idea for a story in which the comic book Superman traded places with his Lois & Clark counterpart. The catch was that the weaker L&C version threatened the DCU because he wasn't up to the jobs that the comic Superman did (like facing Darkseid or Mongul). But the crucial point for this discussion was that the L&C universe lost the Utopia in its future because the more powerful comic Superman freed of powerful opponents took such an active part in protecting the world that when he eventually died people had no system in place to deal with things. In the normal course of events a weaker Superman would have aided them with defending the world but still left a void for Earth to develop systems to allow the world to survive without him.

I kind of see any attempt by Superman to "fix" the world as doomed because either he solves humanities ills leaving us with no reason to change our own nature or because we as a species are not evolved enough to maintain his improvements without him being present. Superman cleans up my neighborhood, but either he stays here to keep it cleaned up or me and my neighbors revert to the same activities that required a clean-up in the first place. Sure he might inspire a dozen people to improve their lives, but not enough to effect real permanent change in just that small of an area. Now given a century that dozen people might inspire enough to change things, but as an ongoing story the change would be so slow it wouldn't hold your interest on a monthly basis.

[Francisco]

I dont see Superman involving himself in politics as much as you do.

The seat on the UN? Considered a world power, or even a rogue world power? Absolutely. I love those ideas. And just so you know, I'm stealing them.

But Superman stepping into the affairs of nations is something that I would tread very, very, very lightly.

I see Superman speaking out, using the UN as his platform, against the social injustices of the world. I see him advocating for aid and resolution to situations like Syria heavily, perhaps even to the point of verbally bullying the UN into action. If he's on the world stage then *that's* his real super power.

But I think it should take extreme measures for him to physically intervene. Even secretly. And only ever as the very last resort. If he has to do that, he's lost the real fight. I look at Clark intervening physically sort of how I look at him killing; he'll do it if he has to, but it takes so much to get him there it practically never happens.

Anyway, yeah, love the ideas. I got something similar floating in my head too. Clark's lifetime on earth and how the world changes. I dont do fanfic but maybe someday I'll find a use for the idea.

You can't steal what's readily given. lol.
Well on my take I'll have the world at the verge of a nuclear war. Just like Metropolis would be at the verge of social collapse until the arrival of Superman so would the world be on upheaval. It would be a situation in which Superman would be forced to take action in both of his identities. In my mind I don't see much difference between Superman stopping Darkseid's latest bid for universal domination or standing up to Putin's Russia near the border of Crimea or deflecting bombs in Aleppo or neutralizing a drone attack somewhere in the middle east. He's watching the little guy about to be crushed under the boot of a tyrant and he just can't stand there and watch it happen. I'm not talking about Superman running the world. I'm talking about Superman actively setting an example to the world with his actions. I want it to be at the forefront and not as something we just gloss over in our way to some cosmic adventure.

By instance Clark Kent is in Country A reporting about the living conditions of poor local workers while at the same time Superman is in Country C brokering a peace treaty between country B and C. Because Superman should be a great diplomat and his greatest skill/power should be his ability to appeal to the better side of humanity.

Have in mind guys that this is just a storytelling idea. I'm not really expecting Superman to "fix" the world and make it perfect so no one ever dies and no crime is ever committed. I'm expecting that as he's (and the other heroes) changing the world for the better new threats will keep showing up. That's the nature of the beast. You can have Batman fixing Gotham yet still have new threats for him to face. Gotham as a hellhole is just a gimmick lazy writing won't let go away.

[Ascended]

By instance Clark Kent is in Country A reporting about the living conditions of poor local workers while at the same time Superman is in Country C brokering a peace treaty between country B and C. Because Superman should be a great diplomat and his greatest skill/power should be his ability to appeal to the better side of humanity.

This is why I think he'd avoid involving himself physically until all other options have been exhausted.

It's one thing for Superman to get on the stage at the UN and speak eloquently about the humanitarian abuses in the world. He can inspire the world like that. I mean, look at what people around the world are doing in response to trump; we've seen an unprecedented level of donations to groups like the ACLU and protests and involvement. And it's having an effect. Imagine what the response would be like if a Superman were out there too?

But he gets involved physically and all of a sudden, people aren't going to be too pleased. We typically dont like bullies and we have a habit if stepping up against them. How much support would Clark lose because he got involved? How many people would say "Yeah, I agree something had to be done but Superman flew in there and forced the dictator to do what Superman wanted. How does that make him any different from the dictator?" There's a saying about a benign tyrant still being a tyrant, and Clark could be seen as falling into that category fairly easily.

There's also the messy reality of how these world events tend to play out. Even a Superman can't fix a broken nation overnight; years are required to rebuild what can be destroyed in months. How much time is he expected to spend in a troubled nation? How many crisis events might he miss, how many lives lost, because he was busy babysitting a douchebag ruler like Kim Jong Un?

But Clark is a man of action and he should involve himself. I just think that he'd have to consider heavily before doing so, make sure everything else under the sun had been tried and failed, and weigh the pro's and con's before lifting a finger. He's a man of action, but he's also trying to guide the world towards a particular future. Unlike most other heroes, Clark isn't just trying to save lives and inspire people and hope we get better somehow, he's got a big picture goal that plays out over the course of a thousand years. Every action he takes has to be weighed against that ultimate goal.

A situation like Syria is something I can see Clark involving himself in. Things have just gotten worse over there and no resolution seems to be in sight. Every day innocent people suffer and die needlessly. Clark would throw his weight in there, and maybe drag a lot of other national rulers/presidents/prime ministers along (against their will if need be) so they could witness what they've let happen. Let them feel how powerless the people of Syria must feel for a minute (a well established troupe in Golden Age stories). But a situation like the Standing Rock pipe line? That's a god damn shame, what is happening to the the people there, but diplomacy may still win the day. So Superman might speak out about the subject, but wouldn't show up. Now, a reporter from Metropolis might find his way to Standing Rock and write a scathing article for the Planet's news app, but Superman getting involved is a ways off yet.

I know you're advocating caution in Clark involving his better half in world affairs while still saying he *would* involve himself when needed. Im just advocating for extreme caution in his doing so.

[Francisco]

I know you're advocating caution in Clark involving his better half in world affairs while still saying he *would* involve himself when needed. Im just advocating for extreme caution in his doing so.

Yeah, I think it's something that needs to be done (with care) and referenced. Superman's presence should be a game changer for the world. It requires a committed writer who is willing to exert itself to the very limits of his writing abilities. I mean there's no way that a morally sound Superman would just stand by while people are suffering. He might not jet into action kicking all assess in sight but he surely would try to do something. What's that something? That's the writer's job to show us. It can't be something like: He doesn't get involved because there's the risk that he might become a tyrant as well. Or he does get involved but it's too complex so he quits.
Yeah the Standing Rock Pipe line situation is the perfect example of how to make Clark Kent more than just a disguise for the Man Of Steel. I'd use the tactic of having Clark writing stuff completely disconnected from anything Superman's involved during the issue. So Superman is deflecting a meteor shower over Europe? Well, Clark is writing about some old house about to be torn down but that is believed to be of historical importance to the city. Or via investigative reporting saving the life of a wrongly convicted man who's just few weeks from execution.

I also feel he needs to have a few world tyrants as part of his rogue's gallery. Normal humans and metas like the Russian Zod (same design different name still a General though) 12 issues are a year long run isn't it? We can have at least 36 issues devoted to Superman dealing with world tyrants he can't just punch out of power. It can end with Superman winning the philosophical moral argument. What if the Tyrant is the hero and protector of his/her people? What if he/she is good and honorable? But what if in their desire of doing the right thing and using their great powers/minds to protect the people they are now smothering their freedoms without themselves even noticing? Along comes Superman, they team up, they become friends, the relationship sours, they clash and at last the former tyrants realize they can still protect their people without being de facto rulers. (some don't learn anything so he kicks their butts lol)

I also believe Superman/Clark should have (besides the people at the Daily Planet, neighbors in Hob's bay and Smallville folk) more international normal human friends. Once in awhile he should just show up at some distant land/country to visit some old friend either as Clark or as Superman. Chinese, Uganda, Czech, Norwegian, Hindu, old, young, male, female. And they shouldn't be killed off or forgotten. Editorial should have an inventory of characters and it should be mandatory for the writers to use them as much as they can. When your main character can virtually be anywhere he wants whenever he wants there's no excuse for not having friends everywhere.

[Ascended]

Yeah the Standing Rock Pipe line situation is the perfect example of how to make Clark Kent more than just a disguise for the Man Of Steel. I'd use the tactic of having Clark writing stuff completely disconnected from anything Superman's involved during the issue. So Superman is deflecting a meteor shower over Europe? Well, Clark is writing about some old house about to be torn down but that is believed to be of historical importance to the city. Or via investigative reporting saving the life of a wrongly convicted man who's just few weeks from execution.

Clark would be all over Standing Rock, and he would've been there before it became a big story. I mean, who "broke" the story that made Standing Rock a huge deal on social media? I dont know, and odds are neither do you. It just started showing up on my feed, from multiple sources. That person who started it is Clark Kent. That's how I see him contributing; he gets the ball rolling that eventually becomes a CNN special report, but he's so deep into the origin of the story he never gets credit.

I also feel he needs to have a few world tyrants as part of his rogue's gallery. Normal humans and metas like the Russian Zod (same design different name still a General though) 12 issues are a year long run isn't it? We can have at least 36 issues devoted to Superman dealing with world tyrants he can't just punch out of power. It can end with Superman winning the philosophical moral argument. What if the Tyrant is the hero and protector of his/her people? What if he/she is good and honorable? But what if in their desire of doing the right thing and using their great powers/minds to protect the people they are now smothering their freedoms without themselves even noticing? Along comes Superman, they team up, they become friends, the relationship sours, they clash and at last the former tyrants realize they can still protect their people without being de facto rulers. (some don't learn anything so he kicks their butts lol)

I've always thought Clark and Black Adam could have some fascinating discussions/debates/arguments (obviously the violence is fun too). Adam, when he's not off his meds, is super interesting and not without his merits. I'd never want to live in a place like Khandaq but it still seems like, in some ways, it's got its good qualities. He's similar to Dr. Doom in that (when written "right") he's loyal to his people. No one screws with Khandaq and they're very stable because of it, right? But his methods are brutal beyond belief. I mean, I think if you lived in Khandaq and totally conformed, life wouldn't be all that bad. But any individuality, minor crime, or contrasting opinion? Public execution is on Wednesdays, as I recall. That's no way to rule a nation, its basically North Korea, but better that than Syria right now you know?

Disclaimer: My knowledge of Khandaq isn't super deep, so if I got my idea of the place wrong please correct my semi-ignorant ass.

I also believe Superman/Clark should have (besides the people at the Daily Planet, neighbors in Hob's bay and Smallville folk) more international normal human friends. Once in awhile he should just show up at some distant land/country to visit some old friend either as Clark or as Superman. Chinese, Uganda, Czech, Norwegian, Hindu, old, young, male, female. And they shouldn't be killed off or forgotten. Editorial should have an inventory of characters and it should be mandatory for the writers to use them as much as they can. When your main character can virtually be anywhere he wants whenever he wants there's no excuse for not having friends everywhere.

You could totally use those characters as call-backs too; maybe one of those people is a young New York woman Clark once saved from suicide (All-Star), or a family from Africa that Clark met as a young man (Birthright), or an old Roman Catholic priest (Kingdom Come) in France. I think in most cases using the actual characters would be either weird and convoluted or just plain in bad taste. But analogs? Those get a pass as long as they're not *too* on the nose. And of course new characters are a total necessity.

[Francisco]

Besides his showing in the old Captain Marvel cartoon, the animated movie crossover with Superman I don't really know much about Black Adam either. I know he used to be a good guy and that's why Shazam (the sorcerer) chose him as the first Avatar or whatever Captain Marvel is supposed to be. As I understand power corrupted him. I agree his and Superman's worldview could create a great dynamic. Still I'm hesitant about Superman mingling too much with villains from other franchises. I wouldn't mind a few scenes here and there but for one or a couple of arcs I rather have brand new characters that completely belongs to the S-franchise.


It would be beyond awesome if they stopped treating Mongul like a third rate Darkseid, and had him conquering half a galaxy or something. Make him menacing and the guy who's supposed to make Superman go the whole distance just to slow him down.

[Ascended]

It would be beyond awesome if they stopped treating Mongul like a third rate Darkseid, and had him conquering half a galaxy or something. Make him menacing and the guy who's supposed to make Superman go the whole distance just to slow him down.

Eh, no matter what they do, they will never escape the fact that Mongul is a poor man's Darkseid (actually a poor man's Thanos, who is a poor man's Darkseid). He can rule a whole universe and it still won't compare to the God of Apokolips.

So why run from that? Embrace it. Make it purposeful. Just say that Mongul worships Darkseid. Darkseid's a New God, gods have worshipers. Mongul has modeled his life around the teachings of the crime bible (or whatever the hell it's called), which is known in the corners of the multiverse, and despite conquering world after world, despite ruling a weaponized planet and being one of the few beings in the universe who can take the worst Superman can give.....Mongul has never set eyes upon his lord. And that Superman has? Several times? And fought him? And survived (no one "wins" a physical fight with Darkseid, I dont care what Loeb says)? Mongul hates Superman more than he loves Darkseid for that. And just because Mongul is a Thanos Jr doesnt mean that's not scary when done right. He's still got a weaponized planet. I dont care who you are, that's impressive.

[Francisco]

Eh, no matter what they do, they will never escape the fact that Mongul is a poor man's Darkseid (actually a poor man's Thanos, who is a poor man's Darkseid). He can rule a whole universe and it still won't compare to the God of Apokolips.

So why run from that? Embrace it. Make it purposeful. Just say that Mongul worships Darkseid. Darkseid's a New God, gods have worshipers. Mongul has modeled his life around the teachings of the crime bible (or whatever the hell it's called), which is known in the corners of the multiverse, and despite conquering world after world, despite ruling a weaponized planet and being one of the few beings in the universe who can take the worst Superman can give.....Mongul has never set eyes upon his lord. And that Superman has? Several times? And fought him? And survived (no one "wins" a physical fight with Darkseid, I dont care what Loeb says)? Mongul hates Superman more than he loves Darkseid for that. And just because Mongul is a Thanos Jr doesnt mean that's not scary when done right. He's still got a weaponized planet. I dont care who you are, that's impressive.

Weaponized planet full of alien super warriors = automatic awesomeness. lol


Mongul as a Darkseid worshipper? Now that's a brilliant thought provoking idea. Mongul can be the physical figure that eventually gets pummeled by Superman. It would elevate him and at the same time protect Darkseid from "jobbing" to the man of steel. It would also feed the idea of Superman ultimately fighting oppression. Superman survives or wins against Darkseid by philosophical means. Darkseid could just erase Superman from existence but his name would survive. It wouldn't accomplish anything just make him a martyr. He wants to break The Man Of Steel, turn him into one of his pawns or simply destroy his reputation. For whatever reason he can't. Something always comes in the way, may it be Superman's indomitable will, conspiracy of fate or bad timing the Man of steel always manage to have the upper hand against Uxas.

[seiko-34]

When your main character can virtually be anywhere he wants whenever he wants there's no excuse for not having friends everywhere.

I agree and it's those interactions that I would like to see more of whether they be animated or in the movies etc. Protector of the people,everyone and he shows it.

As far as being more active in world affairs it can be a slippery slope, you don't want him to appear like he's pushing his views and things on everyone else, but I could see him intervening in some things he feels are totally unjust. Stories like that could be very interesting, world problems he can't punch his way out of like you said but I don't know who would pull it off.

[Francisco]

I agree and it's those interactions that I would like to see more of whether they be animated or in the movies etc. Protector of the people,everyone and he shows it.

As far as being more active in world affairs it can be a slippery slope, you don't want him to appear like he's pushing his views and things on everyone else, but I could see him intervening in some things he feels are totally unjust. Stories like that could be very interesting, world problems he can't punch his way out of like you said but I don't know who would pull it off.

It would be quite easy for a lesser writer to take Superman into bully territory. It really needs to be done with a steady hand. That's why I think Clark the journalist needs to be used a lot to cover that aspect. With Superman just showing up when things get really out of hand (nukes launched and things like that)