Dragon Ball GT or Dragon Ball Super

[Cyke]

Gohan changed many times from Frieza to Cell Saga. What show were you watching?

Tournaments in DBZ had a small part to play. They weren't the main saga.

Gohan was still treated as a kid in both sagas, no more than Goten and Trunks were in Super, and by the Cell Saga he was closer to Goten and Trunks' ages in Super. Indeed, the climax of the Cell Saga was less about beat Cell and more about Gohan finally accepting his power and begin growing into adulthood, to adapt to adulthood's harsh realities. During the Frieza and Cell Sagas, Gohan barely grew physically, but he grew mentally and as a character. That's what I'm getting at here -- if Goten and Trunks are underdeveloped in Super, it's not because of their size, it's because they had less to do than Gohan did in the Frieza and Cell Sagas.

Tournaments in DBZ had a small part to play, but tournaments were prominent in OG Dragon Ball, making up FOUR sagas (including Baba's unofficial one). That's why I specified Dragon Ball (and not DBZ) in my post that you cited. Super aimed to combine OG Dragon Ball and DBZ, hence larger roles for the OG supporting cast (like the Pilaf Gang), a return to more slapstick humor before the King Piccolo Saga, and Roshi becoming prominent again. And, if my math is correct, four tournament sagas in Dragon Ball beats just 2 tournament sagas in Super, so to say Super has too many pointless tournaments is to forget OG Dragon Ball.

So what show was I watching? The same ones we're talking about, starting with OG Dragon Ball, to Z, to Super. Could you just chill on the hostility for a moment?

[Jackalope89]

Tournaments never played a big part in DBZ. The Cell games was 15% of the whole saga.
Goten and Trunks turning SSJ didn't mean they could take on Goku and we saw them get beaten up most of the time.
I meant Vegeta was a loser in GT. Not Buu saga.

Buu Saga and Cell Games. Buu Saga had the WMA as the launching off point for the more serious stuff, and the Cell Games were even originally proposed as a sort of tournament.

[Cyke]

Buu Saga and Cell Games. Buu Saga had the WMA as the launching off point for the more serious stuff, and the Cell Games were even originally proposed as a sort of tournament.

Gohan wasn't on the list!

YAMCHA! Was on the list!

"Wait, why was *I* on the list?

HALFTIME ENTERTAINMENT.

[Minerboh]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_Yw07PfsSY

[Guy1]

Gohan wasn't on the list!

YAMCHA! Was on the list!

"Wait, why was *I* on the list?

HALFTIME ENTERTAINMENT.

[The Big G]

The theme song for the broly movie will be called "Blizzard"

[MarkRodriguez09]

Apparently the Super manga is having Goku and Vegeta attack Jiren with tag team moves, which hints that this is why Whis was training them to actually work together at the beginning of the Resurrection F arc. I hope they don't ruin the ending. Having Goku and Freeza sacrifice themselves to take down Jiren was the best way to do it, proving that he was still too strong to take down in a straight up fight.

[The Big G]

Apparently the Super manga is having Goku and Vegeta attack Jiren with tag team moves, which hints that this is why Whis was training them to actually work together at the beginning of the Resurrection F arc. I hope they don't ruin the ending. Having Goku and Freeza sacrifice themselves to take down Jiren was the best way to do it, proving that he was still too strong to take down in a straight up fight.

Agreed.

I wrote this another forum and I think it sums up the whole Goku/Frieza team up perfectly

comic writer Kyle Higgins said that if you can make a team up between the hero and the villain feel earned, its one of the best feelings around.

I think this 4 min of DBS perfectly sums up the idea of feeling earned.

Goku has teamed up with his rivals before, but none of them have ever been on the level of bad/evil as Frieza. Yes the ToP's writing wasn't always solid here and there, but at this moment in the 11th hour with only seconds to go on the clock (ignoring the fact that they could won because of numbers), everyone running on fumes and going against the most powerful mortal they've ever faced (til Broly XD ).

Goku is his post UI haze mentions they might not be enough, but its Frieza of all people who reminds Goku of his promise. Yest he's being selfish but in the light of the scene its kinda coming off as unselfish. Plus it leads to a nice comeback by goku to frieza. Then the quip by 17 followed by Dan Dan Dan Kachidaze and we got an insane final seconds. Goku and Frieza launching themselves as missiles to push Jiren off the ledge....soo good

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Design wise Ss4 looks way more cool that God mode.

[Sain]

Design wise Ss4 looks way more cool that God mode.

Thank you.

[The Big G]

I give you the Oozaru Scouts

[Sam Robards, Comic Fan]

Well, I haven't checked in on this board for a while. A few things in general:

• I don't like that the Bardock special (not Episode of Bardock because BLEH) is being removed from continuity in the new Super movie. The Bardock special is one of my all-time favorite DB stories, and it stinks that it's being rewritten. Oh well, it'll always be a part of my "canon," whatever that means anymore
• It's no secret that I'm not a fan of Super as a whole, but I will admit that I really like Toppo. He has an unorthodox design (so much hands and 'stache, I love it), a cool powerset when you include the God of Destruction powers and a great character arc to go along with it. He should've been the big bad of the ToP, especially with the destruction powers, as that level of power (Beerus) was the measuring stick for Goku and Vegeta throughout the entire series
• As much as I think the God forms (and God Ki as a whole) are dumb, I really appreciate the concept of Ultra Instinct (even if the name is kinda dumb). I like that the ultimate power-up in Super isn't a raw transformation but a change in perception and motion. Really interesting idea there
• Jiren sucks. His design is bland (ultra-buff alien frog-man, got it) and his personality and arc (if he even has either) are beyond generic. Just a waste of a final antagonist, especially when Toppo is so awesome

However, the main thing I wanted to present was this (it's a long one, but it's worth it):


As a GT/SSJ4 guy, I love it, and not just because my favorite transformation was shown very favorably. It's extremely well-choreographed, well thought out and, as a sucker for sprite-based animation, gorgeous to look at. Heck, even the scenario is plausible.

Just wanted to see what everyone's thoughts on it were!

[Sam Robards, Comic Fan]

Regarding Super vs GT as a whole, I've made my thoughts pretty clear earlier in the thread, though I couldn't tell you what page(s) that was.

I just wanted to add a point that may or may not have already been made: GT's arcs directly tied into each other, giving the series a more cohesive feel to it. The Black Star Dragon Balls introduced Baby and lead into the Baby Saga, the death of Dr. Myuu at the hands of Baby led directly to the Super 17 Saga, and the events of the Super 17 Saga directly caused the Evil Dragons Saga. Each arc couldn't have happened without the arc before it.

Super doesn't have that sense of cohesion: that's not to say that none of the arcs in Super have cohesion. The Battle of Gods clearly ties into the U6 tournament arc, which directly leads to the Tournament of Power. The Resurrection F and Goku Black arcs throw off that cohesion, as they wouldn't have any real effect on the other arcs if they were removed. They just seem like detours. It's like Toriyama was trying to think of where to take things next and said, "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if Freeza came back, but now he's gold" or "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if there was an Evil Goku who was actually an evil Kai?"

It just reeks of storytelling by the seat of one's pants.

[MarkRodriguez09]

Regarding Super vs GT as a whole, I've made my thoughts pretty clear earlier in the thread, though I couldn't tell you what page(s) that was.

I just wanted to add a point that may or may not have already been made: GT's arcs directly tied into each other, giving the series a more cohesive feel to it. The Black Star Dragon Balls introduced Baby and lead into the Baby Saga, the death of Dr. Myuu at the hands of Baby led directly to the Super 17 Saga, and the events of the Super 17 Saga directly caused the Evil Dragons Saga. Each arc couldn't have happened without the arc before it.

Super doesn't have that sense of cohesion: that's not to say that none of the arcs in Super have cohesion. The Battle of Gods clearly ties into the U6 tournament arc, which directly leads to the Tournament of Power. The Resurrection F and Goku Black arcs throw off that cohesion, as they wouldn't have any real effect on the other arcs if they were removed. They just seem like detours. It's like Toriyama was trying to think of where to take things next and said, "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if Freeza came back, but now he's gold" or "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if there was an Evil Goku who was actually an evil Kai?"

It just reeks of storytelling by the seat of one's pants.

True but while the Saiyan saga led into the Freeza saga, the Cell and Buu sagas were also wtf random.

[Cyke]

True but while the Saiyan saga led into the Freeza saga, the Cell and Buu sagas were also wtf random.

I don't know if we're getting into semantics if we consider the Android and Cell Sagas different, or if we're just using Cell Saga as an umbrella term (either route is fine with me). If we do, then the transition between Android and Cell are seamless. But I digress about Frieza to Cell.

In hindsight the transition from Frieza Saga to the Androids seems a little heavy handed, and forced in there only so that there'd be a transition in the first place. King Cold serves no real narrative purpose (as of yet, of course) other than to show how strong Future Trunks was.

I'm still of the belief as well that Toriyama tried his best to make the Cell Saga as the franchise's swan song, only for his editors to overrule him for the Buu Saga, hence the severe time skip and almost no link between the two. Whereas the Cell Saga ended in almost every way you'd want -- the humans' last hurrah, a composite villain made up of recent villains, the death of Goku, the true passing of the torch to Gohan, etc. etc.

With that said, and I'll say nothing bad about GT in regards to how their arcs were handled, but I really didn't mind the somewhat abrupt nature of how the Goku Black arc begins given precedence in older Dragon Ball.