Dragon Ball GT or Dragon Ball Super

[Dark Soul # 7]

I can't speak for anyone else but I like that 17 has lasted this long. Its the unexpectedness of his importance after such a long time unseen that I find interesting.

I like it too, but it feels like it came at the expense of Gohan's part in the story when he had a solid momentum going for him, but that never really came into fruition.

And like sunofdarkchild outline, I would probably have prefered today's episode if it had been a Gohan moment. It just feels more like his kind of victory.

[Cyke]

P. S. Vegeta thought of Cabba but not Tarble. At the very least, he's not canon in Vegeta's mind. So, ya know, lol at Tarble.

Forget about what's canon or not for a sec - regardless, it means Cabba means more to Vegeta than his own blood family (aside from his nuclear family with Bulma, of course). That's funny, but Cabba also earned that spot.

Nope. Toppo has not yet been appointed to that station. So, while having the power of a God of Destruction, he is still only a candidate for the job. Kind of like how Zamasu never actually became a full on Supreme Kai, never being properly promoted.

That's semantics, though. Toppo accessed that energy according to those GoDs themselves. He hakai'd a lot. He used the same energy signatures. He even had the symbolic markings. No one in the audience is downplaying his ascension.

Like the Zamasu example you bring up - true, he didn't become Supreme Kai. But he also achieved far more than we ever saw of a Supreme Kai. It's like downplaying Hit's power because he never attained the title of World Champion at the Tenkaichi Budokai.

[wjowski]

P. S. Vegeta thought of Cabba but not Tarble. At the very least, he's not canon in Vegeta's mind. So, ya know, lol at Tarble.

Forget about what's canon or not for a sec - regardless, it means Cabba means more to Vegeta than his own blood family (aside from his nuclear family with Bulma, of course). That's funny, but Cabba also earned that spot.



That's semantics, though. Toppo accessed that energy according to those GoDs themselves. He hakai'd a lot. He used the same energy signatures. He even had the symbolic markings. No one in the audience is downplaying his ascension.

Like the Zamasu example you bring up - true, he didn't become Supreme Kai. But he also achieved far more than we ever saw of a Supreme Kai. It's like downplaying Hit's power because he never attained the title of World Champion at the Tenkaichi Budokai.

There are GoDs and there are GoDs, though. Toppo ain't no Beerus.

[Cyke]

There are GoDs and there are GoDs, though. Toppo ain't no Beerus.

Toppo ain't no Beerus, but his power was terrible nonetheless, enough to surprise Beerus and the other GoDs, and enough for the U11 gods to outright tell everyone there that Toppo was their top candidate. You don't take the opinions of the GoDs lightly, especially if you impress even them. Even the act of just accessing Energy of Destruction was enough to impress them. Even Beerus panicked when Toppo launched his massive star-like fireball at Vegeta, not at all confident that Vegeta could handle it.

You bring a high school athlete to a basketball game and his skills are enough to attract pro NBA recruiters, even skipping college altogether, that's impressive. You don't expect him to hang with NBA All-Stars just yet of course, but recruiters want him and want to groom him all the same. That's Toppo. And that upstart Vegeta just upstaged the kid that those recruiters were grooming, out of nowhere from a podunk universe.

[Guy1]

[nitake92]

Well that was a nice achievement for Vegeta, to be able to beat a GoD (even if he is a new one and still not officially a GoD) It shows just how strong he’s become without sacrificing one of the 12 established GoD to actually losing.

While this episode was good…there are a couple of points that I wished were changed… They really shouldn’t have put in the last 1-2 minute of the last episode in here, it adds nothing to the episode and I wonder if the animators were just out of time or the writers have nothing to add to the story.

I would prefer that instead of what they did, they use another portion of the Kai/Z flashback to show what Vegeta said in his Majin arc of throwing away his family,etc in order to get back what he was in order to contrast his decision this episode to not throw away what he considered important. I think that would cement the personal growth portion of Vegeta more than what was given which a lot of people state that it was just a “Nakama/ Family” boost.

I also have no problem unlike some other posters on the net of Vegeta using his Final Explosion and living through it. The situation weren’t quite the same (he wasn’t trying to kill Toppo but blast him and his Hakai Aura out of the stadium) so he wasn’t throwing everything including his total life force into the blast. He’s gotten way stronger than the last time and knows when to stop before it killed him, so totally ok with that move.

Toppo himself could have done more…I sort of agree with Jiren that for all his sacrifice of his morals/justice, Toppo didn’t DO much. I was also sort of hoping that the charge time of his Hakai shown in last episode would lead to his defeat but that wasn’t it… I think it was put in so that Toppo didn’t spam Hakai like his Justice Flash against 17 and just showing that Toppo isn’t used to using Hakai/ his Hakaishin power yet but as the fight went on, he adjust to his power and manage to fire them rapidly against Vegeta. Of course I think he over relied on Hakai too much instead of his grappling move and allow Vegeta to pummel him close-range which was where his strength was supposed to be.

Speaking of 17, I like how he was just trying absolutely anything that comes to mind including burying Toppo in rocks to buy as much time as he could. It probably wasn’t his best idea but at that point, any quick idea that seems good and can be acted on quickly counts. The same can’t be said for Frieza’s inclusion in this episode. While I like that he tried his telekinesis on Toppo, trying to hit with rocks is futile unlike 17’s strategy, the better strategy would be to do like he did to Goku on Namek and push him with his telekinesis far away or out of stage. In fact I would have preferred Frieza to have remained unconscious and out of this episode to cement how much Toppo hurted him last episode. Him showing up looking unhurt and not even butthurt unlike when he appear last episode looking really hurt and really angry really didn’t do the overall narrative any favor.

And now we come to Jiren vs the last remaining 4. He’s probably going to do his best Broly/Juggernaut impression and manhandle the cast for an episode or two. I seriously hope he starts ringing out U7’s last four adding to the tension as they each fall until Goku finally gets UI again or another deus ex machina happen. I also hope we get some more backstory about him.

[nitake92]

This post is more about my growing annoyance about the overall inconsistency regarding stamina/ power etc .
This is about Vegeta apparently using up all his power this episode and yet next episode he seems to be able to go Bluer or whatever his form is again. Add that to how Goku apparently exhaust himself but can still pull off Blue Kaioken whenever he feels like it.

Now I’m not asking for much but it would be nice if they use the Zen O and/or the commentator to at least explain WHY these fighters who have been busy fighting for the last 40 minute almost non-stop can seemingly go back to full power even though the narrative just stated that they used up all their ki or their stamina. A simple word by Whis or the Grand Priest like “ It seems we were mistaken, they seem to have more ki left in them than we thought / they weren’t as exhausted as they seem” would have been better than the Zen O going Ooooo and Tanoshi… and Krillin and Tien stating the obvious/ meaningless chatter.
OR…maybe show that 17 is supplying them with his ki next episode to help quicken their recovery or so… In my eye, Goku shouldn’t have been pulling Blue out ever since his match with Kefla, his limit should have been SSG until fighting Jiren. As for Vegeta, after this episode, if the commentators are correct, he really should not be able to muster any transformation anymore or at best a SSJ.

Since the anime no longer have Toriyama’s manga to work as a backbone/structure, I think that the show really need a director to oversee and correct how episode works together & it’s overall structure and narrative. Each episodes work well as single episode but since each episode tries to be as dramatic as possible, when trying to watch them one after another, inconsistencies in tone such as Frieza being roughly fine this episode after last episode or moments that contradicts things established in previous episode such as Goku going Blue after no stamina within one or two minute after using all his power/stamina is seriously hurting the overall story.

[Sam Robards, Comic Fan]

This post is more about my growing annoyance about the overall inconsistency regarding stamina/ power etc .
This is about Vegeta apparently using up all his power this episode and yet next episode he seems to be able to go Bluer or whatever his form is again. Add that to how Goku apparently exhaust himself but can still pull off Blue Kaioken whenever he feels like it.

Now I’m not asking for much but it would be nice if they use the Zen O and/or the commentator to at least explain WHY these fighters who have been busy fighting for the last 40 minute almost non-stop can seemingly go back to full power even though the narrative just stated that they used up all their ki or their stamina. A simple word by Whis or the Grand Priest like “ It seems we were mistaken, they seem to have more ki left in them than we thought / they weren’t as exhausted as they seem” would have been better than the Zen O going Ooooo and Tanoshi… and Krillin and Tien stating the obvious/ meaningless chatter.
OR…maybe show that 17 is supplying them with his ki next episode to help quicken their recovery or so… In my eye, Goku shouldn’t have been pulling Blue out ever since his match with Kefla, his limit should have been SSG until fighting Jiren. As for Vegeta, after this episode, if the commentators are correct, he really should not be able to muster any transformation anymore or at best a SSJ.

...Each episodes work well as single episode but since each episode tries to be as dramatic as possible, when trying to watch them one after another, inconsistencies in tone such as ... Goku going Blue after no stamina within one or two minute after using all his power/stamina is seriously hurting the overall story.

As a guy who just peeks his head in on what's going on in Super (it's not really my thing, but I like seeing my boy Vegeta do well), I think the stamina issue is jarring, too, especially since they made a big deal in prior episodes about how SSJB has @$$ for stamina (hence why Vegeta [manga] and Goku [anime] came up with the idea of using SSJG as a base, only switching to Blue to make a strike to conserve stamina), and the fact that Goku and Vegeta have each gone "all-out" several times, only to be able to power up again within minutes is jarring at best.

It'd be one thing if they had senzu beans, allowed breaks or had some sort of replenishment station in the ring, but just having them constantly power-up seemingly outta nowhere is kinda sloppy.

[Cyke]

As a guy who just peeks his head in on what's going on in Super (it's not really my thing, but I like seeing my boy Vegeta do well), I think the stamina issue is jarring, too, especially since they made a big deal in prior episodes about how SSJB has @$$ for stamina (hence why Vegeta [manga] and Goku [anime] came up with the idea of using SSJG as a base, only switching to Blue to make a strike to conserve stamina), and the fact that Goku and Vegeta have each gone "all-out" several times, only to be able to power up again within minutes is jarring at best.

It'd be one thing if they had senzu beans, allowed breaks or had some sort of replenishment station in the ring, but just having them constantly power-up seemingly outta nowhere is kinda sloppy.

I'm half expecting Frieza to recharge Vegeta the way he did with Goku, even if it was just a fraction of total stamina like in a video game. Sure, it doesn't make total sense, but it's at least something.

But yeah, it's jarring indeed. Hell, Roshi ringed himself out precisely because of the stamina issue. I kept expecting Piccolo to tire out eventually, especially given how many times his arms have been ripped off this tournament (poor guy). It had been established repeatedly that regrowing his arms takes up a lot of stamina, no matter his power level (I mean, that makes sense, as far as regrowing superstrong limbs go anyway).

[Melchior]

Yeah, the stamina bits are weird. I could almost buy the Goku bit if he was consciously keeping himself in the Zenkai zone and it turned out that saiyans fighting with each other had some weird undocumented power regenerating ability. But it is getting pretty silly at this point.

As for this latest episode.... I think the "funniest" part was the teaser and title flash. Gave me the weird thought that we might see the birth of "Vegeta: God of Creation!" in this fight. And then everyone (including Vegeta) being surprised about this.

[Sam Robards, Comic Fan]

I've had a couple questions since Battle of Gods and Resurrection F, and I was curious if they ever addressed it in the show:

• Did they ever explain how Vegeta accessed God Ki or how exactly SSJB was discovered? They glossed over it in the movies, and I quit watching the series right around that point
• Why didn't the Z Fighters (Super Fighters...?) perform the SSJG ritual on all the saiyans and give themselves a load of god-tier fighters? It's obvious that you maintain access to God Ki after the effects of the ritual wear off, and there don't appear to be any real strictures on who receives the energy from the ritual or, indeed, how often the ritual can be performed

Being a GT guy, you could say the same thing about SSJ4 once the Blutz Wave Emitter (BWE) came into the picture, but there's a difference there: while you are simply given access to God Ki from the ritual, the BWE bombards a saiyan with so much radiation that their body is forced to transform into a Golden Oozaru (regardless of whether or not the saiyan has a tail). At that point, it's up to the particular saiyan to overcome their own base instincts as an Oozaru and gain control of the form, and that control is what triggers the transformation into SSJ4 (unless you're infected with an alien parasite, in Baby Vegeta's case).

EDIT: I'm not sure that the other saiyans would actually be able to control the Oozaru like Goku and Vegeta did: Broly sure as Hell wouldn't, but that's another topic altogether...

[Jackalope89]

I've had a couple questions since Battle of Gods and Resurrection F, and I was curious if they ever addressed it in the show:

• Did they ever explain how Vegeta accessed God Ki or how exactly SSJB was discovered? They glossed over it in the movies, and I quit watching the series right around that point
• Why didn't the Z Fighters (Super Fighters...?) perform the SSJG ritual on all the saiyans and give themselves a load of god-tier fighters? It's obvious that you maintain access to God Ki after the effects of the ritual wear off, and there don't appear to be any real strictures on who receives the energy from the ritual or, indeed, how often the ritual can be performed

Being a GT guy, you could say the same thing about SSJ4 once the Blutz Wave Emitter (BWE) came into the picture, but there's a difference there: while you are simply given access to God Ki from the ritual, the BWE bombards a saiyan with so much radiation that their body is forced to transform into a Golden Oozaru (regardless of whether or not the saiyan has a tail). At that point, it's up to the particular saiyan to overcome their own base instincts as an Oozaru and gain control of the form, and that control is what triggers the transformation into SSJ4 (unless you're infected with an alien parasite, in Baby Vegeta's case).

EDIT: I'm not sure that the other saiyans would actually be able to control the Oozaru like Goku and Vegeta did: Broly sure as Hell wouldn't, but that's another topic altogether...

Vegeta ended up training with Whis exclusively for a number of months before Goku joined him. And Whis' staff, the ball end, doubles as a sort of Room of Spirit and Time thing where both Goku and Vegeta trained in and discovered the Blue.

For the ritual, well, it was explained that Goku was somehow able to maintain the power from it despite losing the form, and that the situation baffled even Beerus.

But I do recommend picking up the series after the Resurrection of F Arc. From there, you are introduced to the Dragon Ball multiverse from there, as well as some really great slice of life episodes.

[Jackalope89]

Finally had some backstory to Jiren. Somewhat Batman-esque.

And 17... Dude is, er, was the MVP.

[Hazard]

I was not expecting that heroic sacrifice.

Also, Anime Jiren feels quite different from the Manga one.

[master of read]

Vegeta ended up training with Whis exclusively for a number of months before Goku joined him. And Whis' staff, the ball end, doubles as a sort of Room of Spirit and Time thing where both Goku and Vegeta trained in and discovered the Blue.

For the ritual, well, it was explained that Goku was somehow able to maintain the power from it despite losing the form, and that the situation baffled even Beerus.

But I do recommend picking up the series after the Resurrection of F Arc. From there, you are introduced to the Dragon Ball multiverse from there, as well as some really great slice of life episodes.

also, my take on the other saiyan not getting the SSG ritual is due to a lack of drive. gohan, trunks and goten are lacking in the whole "saiyan lust for battle". sure goten and trunks do enjoy fighting but they don't take it as seriously as their fathers. so i don't think it's wise to have a couple of impulsive kids messing around with energies that **** with the very fabric of the universe if used improperly.

as for gohan, his personality doesn't lend him wanting to master or even possess god ki. gohan only trains as much as he needs to. if there is no major threat, then he will slack off. not to mention, unlike his father, he can't just leave his family at the drop of a hat to train for months on end when there is no real point to it.