Dragon Ball GT or Dragon Ball Super

[master of read]

Goku being the only one strong enough to defeat villains like Buu is a purely narrative issue. He is the hero of the story, so he gets to shine for most of the battles, and is eventually the one who saves the day. Tenshinhan and Piccolo pretty much spend all their spare time meditating and training. There is no plausible reason why either of them wouldn't attain levels on a par with menaces like Buu or a returning Frieza. The only reason is to nerf them so that Goku can save the day. And frankly, from a storytelling perspective, there's nothing wrong with that. Goku is a great protagonist you can really root for.

to a point.

[Cyke]

To be fair, the reason Gohan, Krillin etc. can be good fathers is only because Goku protects them. Gohan, despite having way bigger potential than Goku, alomost completly stopped training and relies on his father to protect him and his family. They all do. Without Goku constantly training and trying to get stronger all of them would have died one time or another. Imagine what would have happened if Goku stopped training after the Freeza saga.

Who else is there? The humans, 18 and Piccolo are too weak. Goten and Trunks are to small. Vegeta is almost always a step behind.

Considering that Gohan could be on Goku´s level without needing to train as extensively one could consider him quite selfish for not contributing to the protection of earth and his family, but only relying on his father to do so.

Well, the thing is... (spoilers if you haven't seen Super or just started the Funimation dub)

spoilers:

...after Buu was defeated, several threats could be attributed to Goku himself. Had Goku stayed hidden and didn't challenge Beerus or insisted that since he was the most powerful Saiyan, there was no SSG on Earth, Beerus would've left them alone. Goku inspired the Universe 6 tournament (and even then, it was enough to attract the attention of *two* Gods of Destruction, plus their end-all god Zeno). In a filler arc, Vegeta almost died fighting a purple goo monster, but that resulted from meeting Monaka in the previous arc thanks to Goku. But perhaps the biggest of all was that Goku's direct challenge to Zamasu is what set Zamasu on his anti-mortal vendetta that culminated in the ultimate obliteration of Future Trunks' timeline -- Trunks went back in time to get Goku's help to fight Goku Black, but thanks to timey-wimey, it turns out that Goku was responsible for Goku Black's creation and rampage in the first place). That is, much of the problems our heroes face in Super is directly because of Goku. It seems to be very intentional, as the next arc appears to be the result of all his messes culminating into a multiversal crisis.

end of spoilers

This is one of the big key differences between the original Goku and Funimation's Goku -- the former tends to get the gang in trouble and thus he has to bail them out, whereas the dubbing in the latter makes him out to be a superhero and protector, making translations inaccurate in important ways. While original Goku will defend his friends and family without question, he has no idea what kind of havoc he tends to leave in his path, that his actions and nature have consequences. Many of the threats our heroes face in Super wouldn't be threats in the first place if it wasn't for Goku, and so their relative strength is a moot point. Even if Vegeta became the undisputed all-powerful Saiyan god, Goku would still be the provocateur getting them into trouble.

Now, speaking as someone who grew up on Dragon Ball, that kind of dissemination of Goku really gets me hooked on the show. Yeah, we'll root for Goku naturally, but that the events of Super wouldn't be happening if he wasn't such a monumental ****-up. He keeps training at the cost of his family, but he creates self-fulfilling circumstances that validate his training.

If anything, Goku's a good father sure (I love his talk with former archenemy Piccolo while they watch Pan together), but because Gohan and Krillin aren't ****-ups themselves, they can be better fathers (you can almost hear Chi-Chi in the distance). And over the course of the show, Vegeta gets to gradually come to that realization himself, which leads to some pretty touching moments.

[master of read]

Well, the thing is... (spoilers if you haven't seen Super or just started the Funimation dub)

spoilers:

...after Buu was defeated, several threats could be attributed to Goku himself. Had Goku stayed hidden and didn't challenge Beerus or insisted that since he was the most powerful Saiyan, there was no SSG on Earth, Beerus would've left them alone. Goku inspired the Universe 6 tournament (and even then, it was enough to attract the attention of *two* Gods of Destruction, plus their end-all god Zeno). In a filler arc, Vegeta almost died fighting a purple goo monster, but that resulted from meeting Monaka in the previous arc thanks to Goku. But perhaps the biggest of all was that Goku's direct challenge to Zamasu is what set Zamasu on his anti-mortal vendetta that culminated in the ultimate obliteration of Future Trunks' timeline -- Trunks went back in time to get Goku's help to fight Goku Black, but thanks to timey-wimey, it turns out that Goku was responsible for Goku Black's creation and rampage in the first place). That is, much of the problems our heroes face in Super is directly because of Goku. It seems to be very intentional, as the next arc appears to be the result of all his messes culminating into a multiversal crisis.

end of spoilers

This is one of the big key differences between the original Goku and Funimation's Goku -- the former tends to get the gang in trouble and thus he has to bail them out, whereas the dubbing in the latter makes him out to be a superhero and protector, making translations inaccurate in important ways. While original Goku will defend his friends and family without question, he has no idea what kind of havoc he tends to leave in his path, that his actions and nature have consequences. Many of the threats our heroes face in Super wouldn't be threats in the first place if it wasn't for Goku, and so their relative strength is a moot point. Even if Vegeta became the undisputed all-powerful Saiyan god, Goku would still be the provocateur getting them into trouble.

Now, speaking as someone who grew up on Dragon Ball, that kind of dissemination of Goku really gets me hooked on the show. Yeah, we'll root for Goku naturally, but that the events of Super wouldn't be happening if he wasn't such a monumental ****-up. He keeps training at the cost of his family, but he creates self-fulfilling circumstances that validate his training.

If anything, Goku's a good father sure (I love his talk with former archenemy Piccolo while they watch Pan together), but because Gohan and Krillin aren't ****-ups themselves, they can be better fathers (you can almost hear Chi-Chi in the distance). And over the course of the show, Vegeta gets to gradually come to that realization himself, which leads to some pretty touching moments.

i dig how super pretty much goes out of it's way to show the fans that, despite what the dub says, goku is not this superman-like savior or superhero. he's a fight nut, deep down and will often do what things to satisfy his urge to face stronger foes. he's still a good guy and will do the right thing in the end but he's far from the hero people think he is.

in fact, i'd say gohan is a more effective hero than goku since, as saiya-man, he is more proactive in saving people.

[kane]

Well, the thing is... (spoilers if you haven't seen Super or just started the Funimation dub)

spoilers:

...after Buu was defeated, several threats could be attributed to Goku himself. Had Goku stayed hidden and didn't challenge Beerus or insisted that since he was the most powerful Saiyan, there was no SSG on Earth, Beerus would've left them alone. Goku inspired the Universe 6 tournament (and even then, it was enough to attract the attention of *two* Gods of Destruction, plus their end-all god Zeno). In a filler arc, Vegeta almost died fighting a purple goo monster, but that resulted from meeting Monaka in the previous arc thanks to Goku. But perhaps the biggest of all was that Goku's direct challenge to Zamasu is what set Zamasu on his anti-mortal vendetta that culminated in the ultimate obliteration of Future Trunks' timeline -- Trunks went back in time to get Goku's help to fight Goku Black, but thanks to timey-wimey, it turns out that Goku was responsible for Goku Black's creation and rampage in the first place). That is, much of the problems our heroes face in Super is directly because of Goku. It seems to be very intentional, as the next arc appears to be the result of all his messes culminating into a multiversal crisis.

end of spoilers

This is one of the big key differences between the original Goku and Funimation's Goku -- the former tends to get the gang in trouble and thus he has to bail them out, whereas the dubbing in the latter makes him out to be a superhero and protector, making translations inaccurate in important ways. While original Goku will defend his friends and family without question, he has no idea what kind of havoc he tends to leave in his path, that his actions and nature have consequences. Many of the threats our heroes face in Super wouldn't be threats in the first place if it wasn't for Goku, and so their relative strength is a moot point. Even if Vegeta became the undisputed all-powerful Saiyan god, Goku would still be the provocateur getting them into trouble.

Now, speaking as someone who grew up on Dragon Ball, that kind of dissemination of Goku really gets me hooked on the show. Yeah, we'll root for Goku naturally, but that the events of Super wouldn't be happening if he wasn't such a monumental ****-up. He keeps training at the cost of his family, but he creates self-fulfilling circumstances that validate his training.

If anything, Goku's a good father sure (I love his talk with former archenemy Piccolo while they watch Pan together), but because Gohan and Krillin aren't ****-ups themselves, they can be better fathers (you can almost hear Chi-Chi in the distance). And over the course of the show, Vegeta gets to gradually come to that realization himself, which leads to some pretty touching moments.

Goku fighting Beerus is the only reason the earth is still around. Only because of that he and later Vegeta were able achieve SSJ Blue. So if Beerus left them alone they all would have been killed by Freeza.

I do not know if Goku was really responsible for Zamasu, after all it was Future Trunks that set it all in motion, so you can argue Zamasu war somehow created without Goku´s challenge the first time around and Zamasu/Black Goku would have existed anyway (I hate time travel). And Goku solved the problem by being friends with god like beings, so him being himself while talking with zeno-sama worked out.

And we do not know how the tournament will end, so it is all speculation. At the end earth probably will still exist, Goku and friends will be stronger and able to fight against the next powerful menace.

[Cyke]

Goku fighting Beerus is the only reason the earth is still around.[

Beerus wouldn't have come to Earth in the first place had Goku not challenged him. Beerus went to Earth specifically to look for Super Saiyan God, someone stronger than Goku. Had Goku been upfront about how he was the most powerful (fact) and there was no one on Earth stronger than him, Beerus would have no reason to go there. It's right there in the script.

Only because of that he and later Vegeta were able achieve SSJ Blue. So if Beerus left them alone they all would have been killed by Freeza.

I'll grant that, but really that was one arc out of the entire show thus far. And even then, had SSB Goku finished off Frieza instead of taking turns with Vegeta, Frieza wouldn't have blown up Earth in the first place. That was Goku being full of himself, which would be a recurring theme throughout the show. It also laid the groundwork of time travel that would be one of the major plot points of the Trunks Arc.

I do not know if Goku was really responsible for Zamasu, after all it was Future Trunks that set it all in motion, so you can argue Zamasu war somehow created without Goku´s challenge the first time around and Zamasu/Black Goku would have existed anyway (I hate time travel). And Goku solved the problem by being friends with god like beings, so him being himself while talking with zeno-sama worked out.

There's no question that Goku was responsible for Zamasu, because it was outright stated in the episode, and several times in the arc. It was writer intent that he would be at fault. Goku, Beerus, and Whis traveled through time before Zamasu went on a rampage to see if Zamasu exhibited signs of being a homicidal maniac. Zamasu was harboring anti-mortal sentiment, but the direct challenge and what he saw as disrespect for gods from Goku is what set him off. That was one of the major reasons why he took over Goku's body -- to show that a god has every right to supplant a mortal, no matter how powerful that mortal may be. Indeed, in the end Beerus and Whis themselves chastised Goku for starting it, explaining that this is a prime example of why time travel was forbidden to mortals in the first place.

Here's the sequence of events, from Zamasu's perspective:

- Zamasu questions the nature of mortals and their place in the universe
- Goku, Beerus, and Whis (in the middle of their investigation) travel back in time to investigate Zamasu to see if there's any connection to Goku Black (they haven't reached that conclusion just yet). Though Zamasu doesn't exhibit anything of concern, he also doesn't think that Goku is anything special, though he finds it odd that he'd accompany the gods.
- Goku is excited to meet someone new and challenges Zamasu in battle. Goku defeats Zamasu. This infuriates Zamasu, who previously had assumed very little about the mere mortal. He considers this as mortal hubris.
- Goku's victory justifies Zamasu's hatred of mortals and deems them too dangerous if they can match gods in power. Zamasu also learns that Goku's the one who defeated Majin Buu.
- Zamasu sees Gowasu watching GodTube, specifically SSB Goku's fight with Hit, and becomes infuriated that a mortal can tap into God Ki.
- Zamasu enacts his scheme to take over Goku's body to tap into his power and to prove that gods must always supplants mortals. This is why he takes on the form of Goku Black - a mortal killing mortals, a mortal taken over by a god, a god restoring "the natural order" by dominating the best of mortals.
- Zamasu traveled to Trunks' future because in this timeline, because in here alt-Dabura killed alt-Supreme Kai, which meant that Beerus of this timeline was also dead. That meant that Zamasu and Goku Black could wreck havoc in Future Trunks' timeline, because there'd be no Beerus to stop him.
- Future Trunks, completely outgunned, travels back in time to get Goku.
- Goku summons Beerus and Whis for help to investigate Zamasu. Beerus and Whis take Goku to the past to meet past Zamasu, thus leading back to point #2 above.

Towards the end, when the entire sequence is explained to Beerus, Beerus himself outright says to Goku something akin to, "You just HAD to challenge him, didn't you?" As such, Zamasu met Goku and nothing happened until Goku himself engaged Zamasu.

Trunks wasn't at fault. He didn't initiate. He sought to solve. Trunks responded to Zamasu. Zamasu responded to Goku. But, while Goku responded to Trunks, Goku was in a position to either start the loop or end it -- he started it (to be fair, he didn't know about the loop, but to be even *fairer*, Beerus told him not to. Had he listened to Beerus, there'd be no sequence of events leading to Goku Black). But then, later on Goku's solution of summoning that timeline's Zen-Oh directly caused the destruction of that universe. He wanted Zen-Oh to remove Zamasu from the cosmic essence, but he had no idea how Zen-Oh operated, and Zen-Oh didn't give a crap about casually blowing up the universe.

And we do not know how the tournament will end, so it is all speculation. At the end earth probably will still exist, Goku and friends will be stronger and able to fight against the next powerful menace.

You're missing the point. No, we don't know how the tournament will end, even if the Earth is saved, the very fact that the multiverse is now in danger and Earth needs saving in the first place is a direct result of Goku going over Beerus' head, the exact thing that Beerus was trying to stop. Beerus was so afraid that Goku might set off a chain of events that he threatened to kill Goku the same way he killed Zamasu, in order to protect the multiverse. That's why Beerus said that no matter who Goku fights in the tournament, the most frightening of all is Zen-Oh. Consider -- let's say Goku and friends do save the universe. If the tournament is played straight, that means 11 other universes died when they didn't need to. Don't they need saving to? Or, let's say that Goku finds the Super Dragon Balls and wishes to undo that damage. They'd still be destroyed in the first place before being restored. Try to think of this from a preventative standpoint -- because Beerus and Whis certainly are. That's why they keep warning Goku. Goku's hubris is dangerous.

Keep in mind, this previous episode had the two Zen-Ohs casually destroying 202 planets simply because they were playing a game. A 2-player game. A game they wouldn't be playing had Goku not brought Future Zen-Oh as a playmate. It's foreshadowing for the arc.

[master of read]

Beerus wouldn't have come to Earth in the first place had Goku not challenged him. Beerus went to Earth specifically to look for Super Saiyan God, someone stronger than Goku. Had Goku been upfront about how he was the most powerful (fact) and there was no one on Earth stronger than him, Beerus would have no reason to go there. It's right there in the script.



I'll grant that, but really that was one arc out of the entire show thus far. And even then, had SSB Goku finished off Frieza instead of taking turns with Vegeta, Frieza wouldn't have blown up Earth in the first place. That was Goku being full of himself, which would be a recurring theme throughout the show. It also laid the groundwork of time travel that would be one of the major plot points of the Trunks Arc.



There's no question that Goku was responsible for Zamasu, because it was outright stated in the episode, and several times in the arc. It was writer intent that he would be at fault. Goku, Beerus, and Whis traveled through time before Zamasu went on a rampage to see if Zamasu exhibited signs of being a homicidal maniac. Zamasu was harboring anti-mortal sentiment, but the direct challenge and what he saw as disrespect for gods from Goku is what set him off. That was one of the major reasons why he took over Goku's body -- to show that a god has every right to supplant a mortal, no matter how powerful that mortal may be. Indeed, in the end Beerus and Whis themselves chastised Goku for starting it, explaining that this is a prime example of why time travel was forbidden to mortals in the first place.

Here's the sequence of events, from Zamasu's perspective:

- Zamasu questions the nature of mortals and their place in the universe
- Goku, Beerus, and Whis (in the middle of their investigation) travel back in time to investigate Zamasu to see if there's any connection to Goku Black (they haven't reached that conclusion just yet). Though Zamasu doesn't exhibit anything of concern, he also doesn't think that Goku is anything special, though he finds it odd that he'd accompany the gods.
- Goku is excited to meet someone new and challenges Zamasu in battle. Goku defeats Zamasu. This infuriates Zamasu, who previously had assumed very little about the mere mortal.
- Goku's victory justifies Zamasu's hatred of mortals and deems them too dangerous if they can match gods in power. Zamasu also learns that Goku's the one who defeated Majin Buu.
- Zamasu sees Gowasu watching GodTube, specifically SSB Goku's fight with Hit, and becomes infuriated that a mortal can tap into God Ki.
- Zamasu enacts his scheme to take over Goku's body to tap into his power and to prove that gods must always supplants mortals. This is why he takes on the form of Goku Black - a mortal killing mortals, a mortal taken over by a god, a god restoring "the natural order" by dominating the best of mortals.
- Zamasu traveled to Trunks' future because in this timeline, because in here alt-Dabura killed alt-Supreme Kai, which meant that Beerus of this timeline was also dead. That meant that Zamasu and Goku Black could wreck havoc in Future Trunks' timeline, because there'd be no Beerus to stop him.
- Future Trunks, completely outgunned, travels back in time to get Goku.
- Goku summons Beerus and Whis for help to investigate Zamasu. Beerus and Whis take Goku to the past to meet past Zamasu, thus leading back to point #2 above.

Towards the end, when the entire sequence is explained to Beerus, Beerus himself outright says to Goku something akin to, "You just HAD to challenge him, didn't you?" As such, Zamasu met Goku and nothing happened until Goku himself engaged Zamasu.

Trunks wasn't at fault. He didn't initiate. He sought to solve. Rather, if anything, he felt way more responsibility than anyone else in the show (save for Gohan) because he felt he had to do right by his world. But even then, Goku's solution of summoning that timeline's Zen-Oh directly caused the destruction of that universe. He wanted Zen-Oh to remove Zamasu from the cosmic essence, but he had no idea how Zen-Oh operated, and Zen-Oh didn't give a crap about casually blowing up the universe.



You're missing the point. No, we don't know how the tournament will end, even if the Earth is saved, the very fact that the multiverse is now in danger and Earth needs saving in the first place is a direct result of Goku going over Beerus' head, the exact thing that Beerus was trying to stop. Beerus was so afraid that Goku might set off a chain of events that he threatened to kill Goku the same way he killed Zamasu, in order to protect the multiverse. That's why Beerus said that no matter who Goku fights in the tournament, the most frightening of all is Zen-Oh.

whis even tells goku that his weakness is his over-confidence. how he is so sure of himself, he lets his guard down. unfortunately, unlike vegeta, goku doesn't seem to be working on that particular failing.

[Sam Robards, Comic Fan]

Well, I'm going to the contrarian in this thread and say that I like GT WAAAAAAAY better than Super.

I quit Super halfway through the Resurrection F arc, if only because I was so horrifically disappointed that they'd spent the first 20-someodd episodes pointlessly retelling previously released material. If they'd have actually added worthwhile material or even made changes to the stories, then I'd have been more amenable to it. But no, it was essentially just a straight-up, horribly paced retread. Ugh.

From what I've read of the actual new material, it definitely sounds unappealing to me. I also think Super Saiyan God/Blue/Rose/whatever other color and the concept of "God Ki" are the most idiotic things to ever hit the franchise.

The fact that the entirety of Super is supposed to take place within the 10-year gap toward the end of DBZ is also just a continuity nightmare waiting to happen.

And lastly, SCREW the ending of the Frieza arc: seriously, that's probably the worst bit of storytelling I've ever seen. I mean, a redo button on the universe so that Goku can get the kill instead of Vegeta? FREAKING STUPID.

At any rate, now that I've complained about what I don't like about Super, let me say what I love about GT.

Super Saiyan 4 is the best transformation in the franchise. Hands down. The design and the process used to attain it are awesome. Not only is the Golden Oozaru a terrific visual, but I love the fact that one has to attain that form and then conquer that inner, most primal part of one's self in order to gain access to (in my opinion) the pinnacle of Saiyan power. And Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta owns. Great stuff.

Speaking of great stuff, Baby is easily the best villain in the franchise, if you ask me. Terrific design and a motivation that is, honestly, somewhat justified. Yeah, his plan still ends up with the planet getting destroyed, but it's because he's trying to rebuild that which the Saiyans destroyed.

Also, they managed to take a throwaway line from the Elder Kai in DBZ about the dragon balls being unnatural and created a compelling arc around it in the Evil Dragons Saga. Yeah, some of the dragons were pretty lame, but the fire, ice and omega (I forgot his initial name) dragons were money. And the message that they probably shouldn't go crazy using the dragon balls (panties) was a good one.

Also, the ending was SO GOOD (even if the way they killed Omega Shenron was a DBZ retread): it actually felt like an ending and was a real gut punch when you realize that Goku's (likely) dead at the end.

On a more technical level, the fights took place in more places than just various colored rock quarries: you had a wind farm, several alien planets and a couple big city battles before the series was even halfway over.

The pacing was also really good, even if it was a little too quick sometimes. You didn't have these long stretches of episodes where the plot is at a virtual standstill: things are constantly moving. The moniker "Drag-On Ball" is very apt when is comes to DBZ.

So yeah, GT, in my humble opinion, is WAY better than Super. It's not perfect, but it doesn't deserve anywhere near the level of hate that it gets. Good stuff.

[master of read]

Well, I'm going to the contrarian in this thread and say that I like GT WAAAAAAAY better than Super.

I quit Super halfway through the Resurrection F arc, if only because I was so horrifically disappointed that they'd spent the first 20-someodd episodes pointlessly retelling previously released material. If they'd have actually added worthwhile material or even made changes to the stories, then I'd have been more amenable to it. But no, it was essentially just a straight-up, horribly paced retread. Ugh.

From what I've read of the actual new material, it definitely sounds unappealing to me. I also think Super Saiyan God/Blue/Rose/whatever other color and the concept of "God Ki" are the most idiotic things to ever hit the franchise.

The fact that the entirety of Super is supposed to take place within the 10-year gap toward the end of DBZ is also just a continuity nightmare waiting to happen.

And lastly, SCREW the ending of the Frieza arc: seriously, that's probably the worst bit of storytelling I've ever seen. I mean, a redo button on the universe so that Goku can get the kill instead of Vegeta? FREAKING STUPID.

At any rate, now that I've complained about what I don't like about Super, let me say what I love about GT.

Super Saiyan 4 is the best transformation in the franchise. Hands down. The design and the process used to attain it are awesome. Not only is the Golden Oozaru a terrific visual, but I love the fact that one has to attain that form and then conquer that inner, most primal part of one's self in order to gain access to (in my opinion) the pinnacle of Saiyan power. And Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta owns. Great stuff.

Speaking of great stuff, Baby is easily the best villain in the franchise, if you ask me. Terrific design and a motivation that is, honestly, somewhat justified. Yeah, his plan still ends up with the planet getting destroyed, but it's because he's trying to rebuild that which the Saiyans destroyed.

Also, they managed to take a throwaway line from the Elder Kai in DBZ about the dragon balls being unnatural and created a compelling arc around it in the Evil Dragons Saga. Yeah, some of the dragons were pretty lame, but the fire, ice and omega (I forgot his initial name) dragons were money. And the message that they probably shouldn't go crazy using the dragon balls (panties) was a good one.

Also, the ending was SO GOOD (even if the way they killed Omega Shenron was a DBZ retread): it actually felt like an ending and was a real gut punch when you realize that Goku's (likely) dead at the end.

On a more technical level, the fights took place in more places than just various colored rock quarries: you had a wind farm, several alien planets and a couple big city battles before the series was even halfway over.

The pacing was also really good, even if it was a little too quick sometimes. You didn't have these long stretches of episodes where the plot is at a virtual standstill: things are constantly moving. The moniker "Drag-On Ball" is very apt when is comes to DBZ.

So yeah, GT, in my humble opinion, is WAY better than Super. It's not perfect, but it doesn't deserve anywhere near the level of hate that it gets. Good stuff.

shame. the goku black arc was actually pretty damn good and zamasu is a great villain in that you just really really REALLY wanted someone punch the crap out of him. also, the fact that future trunks was the one who defeated him in the end, save for goku calling god in to really put a end to everything.

and the recent filler eps that focused on the other characters were great too, especially the ones about krillin and gohan.

[Darth Phoenix]

Super all the way.

ps that's my Bulma

[Guy1]

hence why i call goku's intelligence/sanity into question. honestly, i'm starting to dislike goku now because of his actions in super. at least the other characters, notably vegeta, are showing growth and development. goku seems to have regressed in terms of personality and he's kinda acting like a dick. especially when he was giving vegeta guff for wanting to be there for the birth of his second child and not just leave at the drop of a hat to train.

Well, it's to be expected. After all

[master of read]

Super all the way.

ps that's my Bulma

if super has taught us anything, it's that getts loves his wife.

[sunofdarkchild]

whis even tells goku that his weakness is his over-confidence. how he is so sure of himself, he lets his guard down. unfortunately, unlike vegeta, goku doesn't seem to be working on that particular failing.

It annoys me that Goku has had so little character development. At the beginning of Z he had to come to terms with being a Saiyan, and that was good development. And during the Cell saga he seemed to have matured, actually acting like a father, learning to drive, preaching the importance of relaxing instead of training 24/7, and even not wanting Gohan to show mercy to Cell. Yes, his reckless streak showed itself when he gave Cell the sensu bean and when he had Gohan fight, but the show acknowledged those as flaws, and overall he seemed to have come very far compared to bus DB days. And then he recognized that villains were targeting earth specifically to get to him.

I feel that all of that was thrown out the window after he came back during the Buu saga. Running off with Uub at the end of Z was the worst move he pulled since he refused to come back to earth after Frieza. GT wrote him as an 8 ear old regardless of the actual deaging. And Super has made his obsession with fighting worse than ever.

[master of read]

It annoys me that Goku has had so little character development. At the beginning of Z he had to come to terms with being a Saiyan, and that was good development. And during the Cell saga he seemed to have matured, actually acting like a father, learning to drive, preaching the importance of relaxing instead of training 24/7, and even not wanting Gohan to show mercy to Cell. Yes, his reckless streak showed itself when he gave Cell the sensu bean and when he had Gohan fight, but the show acknowledged those as flaws, and overall he seemed to have come very far compared to bus DB days. And then he recognized that villains were targeting earth specifically to get to him.

I feel that all of that was thrown out the window after he came back during the Buu saga. Running off with Uub at the end of Z was the worst move he pulled since he refused to come back to earth after Frieza. GT wrote him as an 8 ear old regardless of the actual deaging. And Super has made his obsession with fighting worse than ever.

that can be a positive and a negative for super.

a negative in that goku has the least amount of actual character development of any of the characters, most of all when compared to vegeta, who is turning into a attentive and loving husband and a proud father.

a positive in that it shows some of the fans that goku isn't the hero they think he is.

[Cyke]

I quit Super halfway through the Resurrection F arc, if only because I was so horrifically disappointed that they'd spent the first 20-someodd episodes pointlessly retelling previously released material. If they'd have actually added worthwhile material or even made changes to the stories, then I'd have been more amenable to it. But no, it was essentially just a straight-up, horribly paced retread. Ugh.

I'm hesitant to tell you to just skip the Resurrection F arc, though I certainly agree that the first two arcs of Super are boring retreads. Once the Universe 6 arc hits, the show *really* hits its stride -- story, animation, everything.

The only reason why I hesitate to tell people to skip the first two arcs is simply because it lays a good chunk of groundwork for later arcs, most importantly Beerus and Whis, and their relationship to Goku. Indeed, the ending to Resurrection F -- that Whis hits the reset button, but the button only works for 3 minutes -- is carried on later because it creates point that the gods have limits to their powers and abilities, that there's only so much they can do to intervene, and one day they won't be able to help Goku, or just outright refuse to help, period.

I'd also say that, aside from a couple fillers here and there, Resurrection F is the worst arc of the show.

Of course, hey, if you watch more of Super and still prefer GT as your cup of tea, then that's good, too.

It annoys me that Goku has had so little character development.
[snip]
And Super has made his obsession with fighting worse than ever.

To back up master of read, I believe these two concerns are intentionally being developed as out-and-out themes for the show, to the point where each arc has consequences for Goku's inability to truly learn, and for his outright hubris and selfishness. Really, this last episode seems to imply that Goku's teetering closer to becoming an unintentional villain, no matter how good-hearted or innocent he really is the entire time. (of course, if he does turn, it'll probably be him trying to atone his mistakes, but damage is already being done). Goku might really be one of the best examples of what happens when "With Great Power comes Great Responsibility" gets infringed.

As in, Goku has the powers of a god. He doesn't have the respect or authority of a god. That's going to bite him in the ass.

The sinister side in me wants to read this as a cheery but cynical view of how fans can't seem to let go of Dragon Ball. That we're so stuck in nostalgia and our idealized versions of Goku that having him around longer is more of a detriment, no matter how much the other characters are trying to show him otherwise (Beerus and Whis obviously, but Gohan and Krillin have grown up and moved on, Yamcha has a different career, even his rival Vegeta is a devoted dad and mentor. Vegeta, Bulma, and Chichi have all called him out on his behavior).

[Dark Soul # 7]

I'm personally really liking how there's this theme of slowly but steadily deconstructing Goku's character and motivation in Super. It's a fun idea and they're pulling off really well without being malicious towards the character, something that can easily happen with deconstructions.

It'll be interesting to see if Goku actually manages to learn from all of this or if things'll just get worse because of him.

It annoys me that Goku has had so little character development. At the beginning of Z he had to come to terms with being a Saiyan, and that was good development. And during the Cell saga he seemed to have matured, actually acting like a father, learning to drive, preaching the importance of relaxing instead of training 24/7, and even not wanting Gohan to show mercy to Cell. Yes, his reckless streak showed itself when he gave Cell the sensu bean and when he had Gohan fight, but the show acknowledged those as flaws, and overall he seemed to have come very far compared to bus DB days. And then he recognized that villains were targeting earth specifically to get to him.

I feel that all of that was thrown out the window after he came back during the Buu saga. Running off with Uub at the end of Z was the worst move he pulled since he refused to come back to earth after Frieza. GT wrote him as an 8 ear old regardless of the actual deaging. And Super has made his obsession with fighting worse than ever.

Well, the Cell saga was supposed to be the end of the series after Toriyama was made to continue writing beyond his originally intended end point, the Freezer saga. When the Buu saga came along Toriyama was just tired, we can see that in how some of the fights are decidedly less inventive and kinda lacklustre overall. So it kinda makes sense if he didn't give it his all in regards to Goku's characterization.