Defining moments in Superdad's life.

[Patrick Gerard]

I was putting together a wall display of covers featuring Superdad through his history.

I was focusing on issues that both mark a turning point and show off that era with their covers.

Then I noticed something. From Superman Forever through Convergence: Superman #2, there's a big gap. There are stories I remember loving. Some got a second print. But the only ones that stood out as a major turning point in his life were Supergirl's debut in Superman/Batman and Pa Kent's death. Maybe Superman and the Legion. Others promised more and many successfully redefined villains but I was at a loss for anything I'd say was on par with the death, wedding, or electric saga.

I could fill a rack with origin retellings but in terms of changes that still matter, all I could think up were Pa's death and Supergirl's debut, either of which may or may not matter after Reborn. Stuff like the Daily Planet getting so led and so on seem trivial in hindsight. Thoughts?

[Kuwagaton]

I think it's awfully hard to bring up defining moments without invoking the rough pre flashpoint stuff, haha. What features of a moment would you qualify specifically as defining?

[Patrick Gerard]

Rites of passage. Life turning points. Costume changes, power changes, relationship status changes. I suppose the debut of the OWAW black chest emblem counts.

[Patrick Gerard]

So here's the top 4 I can come up with, seeing as how I'm looking for a turning point reflected in a cover:

Superman 153: Metropolis gets upgraded.
Lex 2000 one shot: Luthor gets elected.
1st appearance of the black S-shield. (An Adventures issue, if I recall?)
Pa Kent's death.

Maaaaaybe New Krypton#1?

I don't see Grounded or For Tomorrow as all that defining. If you skipped them, you wouldn't be lost when reading other books. They're ignorable.

[Kuwagaton]

It doesn't seem like much only because like just about anything, it pales in comparison to the 1986-1999 stretch when it comes to significant development of a comic character.

If we're talking what we can ignore, that's really tough because it's so subjective. Grounded is hard to skip because it did a lot to influence the perception of the era. I'd say the black shield can be skipped in origin and after Ending Battle it's not really mentioned. The metropolis 2k can be skipped in the sense that when things are back to normal, it doesn't matter unless you're digging into president Lex. I started reading after that and had no idea about it until I went backwards.

Action 775 was career defining and the Elite played a huge role in comics from that era.

Superman 151-153, where he trains with Mongul was significant since this was the biggest idea put to his considerable power increase.

The destruction of the fortress and creation of the pocket fortress from Superman #143-MoS #100.

Embracing his Kal-el identity was a momentous change in how the character was handled.

Ham being Ruined was a major change to his relationship with a key figure. The following crisis stories likewise ruined much of what friendship he had with Batman.

Krypto coming back was really something, too.

[Ascended]

So here's the top 4 I can come up with, seeing as how I'm looking for a turning point reflected in a cover:

Superman 153: Metropolis gets upgraded.
Lex 2000 one shot: Luthor gets elected.
1st appearance of the black S-shield. (An Adventures issue, if I recall?)
Pa Kent's death.

Maaaaaybe New Krypton#1?

I don't see Grounded or For Tomorrow as all that defining. If you skipped them, you wouldn't be lost when reading other books. They're ignorable.

I think Our Worlds At War was a pretty big moment. It changed a lot about the face of Clark's world. Sam Lane dies in the story, which leads to Lois and Clark separating for a while. It begins the downfall of Lex's Presidency. Clark pushed his powers to new limits and found out what sun-dipping can do (at least I dont recall post-Crisis trying that trick beforehand). And of course, the aftermath has Clark going to therapy and (IMO) begins the downward spiral the books foundered into until the New52 and Morrison. Not because of the therapy, just so we're clear. Nothing wrong with getting some perspective from an unbiased third party if you need it.

I suppose an argument could be made for Up, Up, And Away, and the cover for the first issue is damn nice, but I myself never cared for the story as much as some here do.

I think you have to include some Infinite Crisis stuff. That was major. Whether it's Clark almost killing Bruce and Diana during Sacrifice or Clark's complete and total breakdown of confidence and purpose that plagued him during those days, or just the arrival of Superboy Prime and the deaths of Conner and Kal-L (damn you DC!), IC should have a place in "big post-Crisis moments."

Superman and the Legion is....maybe a thing? It does bring back the pre-Crisis Superboy element, but did it really change anything? I'd argue that, for all intents and purposes, it did not. But still, it was a part of pre-Crisis that found its way home.

[Ascended]

Action 775 was career defining and the Elite played a huge role in comics from that era.

I dunno about that man. A lot of people talk about how big that issue was, but you know what it is? It's a big, drawn out story that bends itself over backwards trying to explain why Clark doesn't kill, rather than going for the honest and simple answer of "what kind of ******* *wants* to kill people?" and doesnt even mention the impact killing alt-Zod and his friends had on Clark's psyche earlier in his career. And it does Clark no favors at all. He never manages to bring a real argument against the Elite. He acts irresponsibly, allowing the Elite to goad him into a fight, never once considers bringing in the League or what would happen to earth (much less Lois!) if Superman got killed over a friggin pissing contest, and when it's all over he preens as if he won some sort of moral argument rather than just beat some people up.

Now, Manchester Black? That guy did matter for a few years and he did some damage that might be worth taking note of. But in my opinion the issue where Black "kills" Lois and Clark refuses to murder Black in retaliation is infinitely more powerful and true to the character than the wet diaper that is Action 775.

[Truman Burbank]

I was putting together a wall display of covers featuring Superdad through his history.

I was focusing on issues that both mark a turning point and show off that era with their covers.

Then I noticed something. From Superman Forever through Convergence: Superman #2, there's a big gap. There are stories I remember loving. Some got a second print. But the only ones that stood out as a major turning point in his life were Supergirl's debut in Superman/Batman and Pa Kent's death. Maybe Superman and the Legion. Others promised more and many successfully redefined villains but I was at a loss for anything I'd say was on par with the death, wedding, or electric saga.

I could fill a rack with origin retellings but in terms of changes that still matter, all I could think up were Pa's death and Supergirl's debut, either of which may or may not matter after Reborn. Stuff like the Daily Planet getting so led and so on seem trivial in hindsight. Thoughts?

I think a lot of this comes from the change of editors and creative staff at the time. Everyone was so busy putting their own stamp on the character and trying to change continuity to match their personal preferences, the stories suffered. None of the "big moments" really stuck because they were all de-emphasized or replace by writers that followed.

[Kuwagaton]

I dunno about that man.

But that was just a criticism of the comic, not on the actual importance. All things considered, it was a very popular story that managed its own animated movie and the Elite are pretty well known spin off stars, what with the JLE series and with Black still being around these days.

[Darkstars]

I agree, when he saw Topeka, Kansas nuked that was pretty big. He realized he couldn't be everywhere and save everyone. One of the big things was he never wanted another Coast City to happen on his watch, and here it happened even after turning Imperiex away one time.

[Ascended]

But that was just a criticism of the comic, not on the actual importance. All things considered, it was a very popular story that managed its own animated movie and the Elite are pretty well known spin off stars, what with the JLE series and with Black still being around these days.

I suppose it does sort of herald the beginning of the rock bottom period that began after OW@W, though it took a while for the entire line to sink to that level. Okay, I suppose if you wanted to highlight "the bad years of post-Crisis" Action 775 would do that as well as many. But really, I think its more a precursor than a pivotal moment myself.

Has anyone mentioned For Tomorrow? The ramifications of that story didn't go very far (it is quite unpopular), but when you think about it that should have had a pretty big impact on Clark. He accidentally sent millions of people, including his wife, to a fabricated reality inside the Zone for a year. That's pretty crazy. It shows a proactive development in Clark's approach to heroics we hadnt seen before (that I recall), it shows the resources and technological acumen he has accumulated, and it shows off his intellect. It's also one of the big post-Crisis mistakes, on par with killing alt-Zod and allowing the League to get away with mindwiping Batman.

Yeah, its sort of funny that Im suggesting a story people would rather forget and dismissing a story people liked, but I still dont think 775 really showed any development or growth, and aside from being popular, added nothing. It's just a hint of the crap that followed.

[manofsteel1979]

I liked the Manchester Black character, dislike ACTION #775 immensely. It's a shame because most of Kelly's run was pretty good.

[Kuwagaton]

I consider myself a big Kelly fan in general, but in hindsight I really can't say much good about his run. Aside from maybe a half dozen issues like 775, none of it reads the same as when I was a young teen.

Yeah, its sort of funny that Im suggesting a story people would rather forget and dismissing a story people liked, but I still dont think 775 really showed any development or growth, and aside from being popular, added nothing. It's just a hint of the crap that followed.

Development is objective. You may not like what springs out, but that doesn't necessarily mean a lacking. Looking at #760-774, then many of the comics after #775 (namely OWAW and Ending Battle) leading up to Infinite Crisis, there's a pretty clear shift in tone. The JLA run with Mahnke that followed OWAW also had a bit of this flavor.

Meanwhile I quite liked For Tomorrow (6/10 as a monthly, 8/10 collected) but it's remarkably obscure for a story that sold well and had big guest stars.

[Ascended]

I consider myself a big Kelly fan in general, but in hindsight I really can't say much good about his run. Aside from maybe a half dozen issues like 775, none of it reads the same as when I was a young teen.


Development is objective. You may not like what springs out, but that doesn't necessarily mean a lacking. Looking at #760-774, then many of the comics after #775 (namely OWAW and Ending Battle) leading up to Infinite Crisis, there's a pretty clear shift in tone. The JLA run with Mahnke that followed OWAW also had a bit of this flavor.

Meanwhile I quite liked For Tomorrow (6/10 as a monthly, 8/10 collected) but it's remarkably obscure for a story that sold well and had big guest stars.

It is indeed objective (at least to a point) but I still think 775 is just the prologue. If I had to pick a single issue that really sold the beginning of the downward spiral, I think it'd be an issue shortly after OW@W where Clark decided to go to therapy. At that point Lois has just left him, Topeka is still a ruin, and all the distractions of OW@W are over, which means Clark finally has to look at his life and realize he's lost or losing his path.

And just to be clear, again, I got nothing against therapy. But you dont go to therapy when life is rainbows and sunshine.

But hell, I hate 775 more than almost any other single issue of any comic I have ever read so I am absolutely biased and likely just not wanting to give the story any credit for anything, including starting one of the worst eras in Super-history.

[Minerboh]

Post Crisis arrival.
Superman executing Alternate Zod and allies. This gives him major psychological issues forcing him to self exile into outer space.
Clark reveals his Superman identity to Lois.
The Death of Superman and his return.
The Wedding of Superman.
Electric Smurf-Superman and the one shot featuring the return of his original costume.
What's Funny With Truth, Justice And the American Way.
The Return of his cousin, Supergirl.
The Death of Pa Kent.
New Krypton arc and the Grounded storyline.