Superwoman #7 - Spoilers

[Korath]

there were barely any worthwhile Superman stories in that 5 year period. All the complaints about PC Supes coming back seemed to have the ring of "but he had potential, you just had to give him a chance," well potential is great, but pointless when it's never realized.

I prefer Truth and Savage Dawn over anything Jurgens as written since Rebirth. So let's agree to disagree.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

there were barely any worthwhile Superman stories in that 5 year period. All the complaints about PC Supes coming back seemed to have the ring of "but he had potential, you just had to give him a chance," well potential is great, but pointless when it's never realized.

I agree that when I want New 52 Superman back, it's mostly because of the potential he had.

Other than Morrison's run, the Pak/Kuder run, Yang's mythbrawl arc, and maybe Soule's Superman/Wonder Woman run, there isn't anything else worth mentioning from the Superman books from the New 52 era. There were also a few issues here and there, like Pak's Secret Origins story that were great, but there was more bad than good.

But for me, and maybe other that would prefer New 52 Superman going forward, there were good Superman stories in his first (and now only) five years, while for Post-Crisis Superman, I didn't think any of the stories in his first five years were good. I'd say that until maybe seven years into the character, there weren't any stories in the main Superman books that I'd consider good.

Comparing them side by side, from my perspective, New 52 Superman had more good stories than Post-Crisis Superman did in the same amount of time, and it looked like one bad element of New 52 Superman was going to be on the way out (the Superman/Wonder Woman romance), had the character continued.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I also fail to see how DC can hope to reconcile the things which happened to New 52 Superman with the ones Superdad did. And, honestly, isn't it totally hypocrite to have DC use Rebirth to get ride of the things it didn't like in the Pre-Flashpoint, add to it everything it liked from New 52 and call it the "everything is canon" approach ? It doesn't work that way. Either all of Pre and Post Flashpoint is canon, or is is only a new timeline designed as canon for the time being.

I think what this issue might signify is that the characters will by an large remember their Pre-Flashpoint lives. If Nuperman and Superman are one and the same (as might also be the case with NuLois and Lois), then its possible that his "death" at the end of Final Days of Superman was simply him reverting back to his Pre-Flashpoint self and regaining all of his memories from before Flashpoint. So, he technically still lived his Post-Flashpoint life, but it was in essence during a time in which he couldn't remember his real life.

Honestly, that's my problem with the comics in general anyway here : instead of creating new characters or at the very least new iterations of the same character, they simply try to pretend that there has been one legacy, one true timeline, when it makes no sense to do so and -personally- fail to entice me to the characters and their stories. I don't like to simply have throwback in one issue on something which happened twenty or more years ago, I can't invest in the character that way.

That's why the New 52 brought me in for comics, and why Rebirth is clearly showing me the door more and more when it comes to Superman (and clearly bit me and thrown me out of Wonder Woman) and even Batman is often on the verge of doing this.

That's funny, because, as you claim to be a Batman fan, you do know that the benchmarks of the Batman mythology that remained after Flashpoint are all decades-old developments, do you not? Dick Grayson didn't become Nightwing after Flashpoint. He assumed the Nightwing identity over 30 years ago. And "A Death in the Family" which detailed Jason Todd's death, one of the defining attributes of his character, was originally written in 1988 and was still canon after Flashpoint. Hell, even his resurrection story is over a decade old at this point. And then even Damian Wayne has already been around for well over 10 years himself. So, I find it ironic that you say that you don't like having a long-spanning continuity, when in fact the characters you purport to like reading about wouldn't be the same without that long-spanning continuity.

[FishyZombie]

Comparing them side by side, from my perspective, New 52 Superman had more good stories than Post-Crisis Superman did in the same amount of time, and it looked like one bad element of New 52 Superman was going to be on the way out (the Superman/Wonder Woman romance), had the character continued.

that's kind of the point I was making at the end though. All the big stuff that separated the PC and the N52 versions (all the Truth stuff, heroic Lex ,the WW romance and the solar flare powers, the armor), that fans brag about being bold and new, were all going to go away in another year or so, anyway, one way or another. If he stayed alive he was just going to end up resembling a "traditional Supes" that we have now.

[FishyZombie]

I prefer Truth and Savage Dawn over anything Jurgens as written since Rebirth. So let's agree to disagree.

sure, I can agree to that

[manofsteel1979]

there were barely any worthwhile Superman stories in that 5 year period. All the complaints about PC Supes coming back seemed to have the ring of "but he had potential, you just had to give him a chance," well potential is great, but pointless when it's never realized.

While I do think there were a few worthwhile stories over the 5 years, I totally agree all this talk of lost potential is pointless , because , frankly as much as people say his existence was " progress", he really wasn't. He was a repackaged pre Crisis Superman with a different main love interest and devoid any real concrete history and back story, which in of itself isn't a bad idea If it was actually embraced and that there was an effort beyond Grant Morrison and Greg Pak's torpedoed attempts to build something. I mean, four years into Post Crisis we had a pretty solid idea of who that Superman was. He had a history. He had a cast of characters with clearly defined relationships and a stable rogues gallery. Nuperman had very little of that, and there seemed to be no honest attempt to rectify that. The way I see it, if DC didn't want to devote the time to build this guy, then it was just as well they brought the other guy back. If they had kept Nuperman but decided to actually build on him, I'd been fine. But they didn't and I can guarantee they likely never would have.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

that's kind of the point I was making at the end though. All the big stuff that separated the PC and the N52 versions (all the Truth stuff, heroic Lex ,the WW romance and the solar flare powers, the armor), that fans brag about being bold and new, were all going to go away in another year or so, anyway, one way or another. If he stayed alive he was just going to end up resembling a "traditional Supes" that we have now.

Probably, yeah. Some writers even wrote him as they would Post-Crisis Superman.

But there'd be the chance that they'd continue in the vein of Morrison, and Pak/Kuder, where as bringing back Post-Crisis Superman meant definitely going back.

Some New 52 fans are hung up things like the costume, and his relationship with Wonder Woman, but those are things I disliked about the New 52 version. For me, it's about the direction the character is heading in.

Had New 52 Superman continued, his status quo wouldn't be what Post-Crisis Superman's status quo is right now.

[spirit2011]

I think what this issue might signify is that the characters will by an large remember their Pre-Flashpoint lives. If Nuperman and Superman are one and the same (as might also be the case with NuLois and Lois), then its possible that his "death" at the end of Final Days of Superman was simply him reverting back to his Pre-Flashpoint self and regaining all of his memories from before Flashpoint. So, he technically still lived his Post-Flashpoint life, but it was in essence during a time in which he couldn't remember his real life.



That's funny, because, as you claim to be a Batman fan, you do know that the benchmarks of the Batman mythology that remained after Flashpoint are all decades-old developments, do you not? Dick Grayson didn't become Nightwing after Flashpoint. He assumed the Nightwing identity over 30 years ago. And "A Death in the Family" which detailed Jason Todd's death, one of the defining attributes of his character, was originally written in 1988 and was still canon after Flashpoint. Hell, even his resurrection story is over a decade old at this point. And then even Damian Wayne has already been around for well over 10 years himself. So, I find it ironic that you say that you don't like having a long-spanning continuity, when in fact the characters you purport to like reading about wouldn't be the same without that long-spanning continuity.

If Batman is the character and franchise it is today is because of decades long spanning continuity.
stephanie, tim are 25 years old, Cassandra Cain is 16 years old. Things take some time to build

that's kind of the point I was making at the end though. All the big stuff that separated the PC and the N52 versions (all the Truth stuff, heroic Lex ,the WW romance and the solar flare powers, the armor), that fans brag about being bold and new, were all going to go away in another year or so, anyway, one way or another. If he stayed alive he was just going to end up resembling a "traditional Supes" that we have now.

except the WW romance, it all could still happen on post crisis superman. heroic Lex was a wider DC development that superman rebirth now is tackling it.
So nothing really that different

[stephens2177]

My opinion,after Reborn superdad will completely fit into the present world,it's already slowly happening with him and Lois.

I don't see him changing anymore,he wouldn't have 2,because he is already pre flashpoint made to work in a new 52 world.its the rest of the DCU that isn't,so it will be the DCU that changes not him.

At least that's my theory.....For this hour

[spirit2011]

I disagree about your assertion that New 52 Superman didn't work. he was sabotaged. Even after Savage Dawn, he had quite a lot of potential and was in no need to be replaced. Instead, DC sabotaged him to force feed us with Superdad, without even the decency of an honest reboot. And the sales of Rebirth aren't looking that great, even with the new take on Superman, which makes me think that DC's made a mistake in betting to pure nostalgia to bring in or keep new (or relatively new, like in my case) readers.

there is nothing to proof New52 superman was boycotted. I could say preflashpoint Superman was boycotted too.
so far seems more like denial than anything concrete

I prefer Truth and Savage Dawn over anything Jurgens as written since Rebirth. So let's agree to disagree.

taste is taste because Jurgens knock this stories all the park easily

[LoveStar]

There was nothing wrong with the SM/WW romance, could've been written better, sure, but online bashing didn't reflect sells until Tomasi took over and even supporters of the book, me included, didn't like his direction...also, if it was so bad, DC wouldn't still be using it in other things outside of comics. If the old status quo was so much loved etc, convergence should've done so much better and the highly anticipated Lois and Clark mini. As of now, Action Comics shouldn't be basically back at new52 level.

New 52 Superman was younger and unrelatable to the older fans who think he should just have this "father figure"/ grandfather persona. Who THEY grew up with, not considering a new generation of readers who could grow with new52 with a different non-predictable path.

Back on topic, I hope Lana doesn't really die just take her powers away if need be.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

there is nothing to proof New52 superman was boycotted. I could say preflashpoint Superman was boycotted too.
so far seems more like denial than anything concrete

No one said there was a boycott.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

Oh, and sales for 'Superman' are still good. That book is doing fine sales wise.

It's 'Action Comics' that's already down to Post-Morrison 'Action Comics' levels.

[Patrick Gerard]

I agree that when I want New 52 Superman back, it's mostly because of the potential he had.

Other than Morrison's run, the Pak/Kuder run, Yang's mythbrawl arc, and maybe Soule's Superman/Wonder Woman run, there isn't anything else worth mentioning from the Superman books from the New 52 era. There were also a few issues here and there, like Pak's Secret Origins story that were great, but there was more bad than good.

But for me, and maybe other that would prefer New 52 Superman going forward, there were good Superman stories in his first (and now only) five years, while for Post-Crisis Superman, I didn't think any of the stories in his first five years were good. I'd say that until maybe seven years into the character, there weren't any stories in the main Superman books that I'd consider good.

Comparing them side by side, from my perspective, New 52 Superman had more good stories than Post-Crisis Superman did in the same amount of time, and it looked like one bad element of New 52 Superman was going to be on the way out (the Superman/Wonder Woman romance), had the character continued.

My thinking on that is that the potential described there is better realized in projects like American Alien.

I think Kingdom Come and DKR and other books show us that the best fresh takes work great out of continuity and look mediocre when you start referencing them in continuity.

We can, for instance, appreciate Earth One as its own thing (not really to my tastes) but continuity works best as a consensus take that allows for variety of visions. The "best", "worst", or most fresh stuff really belongs outside continuity.

[Patrick Gerard]

There are three levels of callback as I see it:

The Easter Egg:

"I know one of the best prize fighters in the world."
"This technology is similar to Quintum's architecture. I can decipher it."

The Cheap Callback:

Superman helps Mohammed Ali hang pictures.
Leo Quintum shows up and hands Emil Hamilton a screwdriver.

The True Sequel/Event:

Superman vs. Mohammed Ali 2.
Leo Quintum builds Superman a new body after his current one fails.

The second tier is generally pretty weak. It's where you end up with things like the Metal Men forming Alloy from Kingdom Come. It's not small enough to be an Easter egg and not big enough to be an event unless, say, they get stuck merged.