Should Zod just be Kryptonian Hitler or more sympathetic and deep?

[TheCape]

Isn't Eradicator a good guy, basically the Superman equivalent of Azrael?

Kinda, he goes between being an alied or an obstacle all the time. In his most recent apperance (the Son of Superman storyarc), he was evil

[Patrick Gerard]

Kinda, he goes between being an alied or an obstacle all the time. In his most recent apperance (the Son of Superman storyarc), he was evil

The Eradicator is generally racist except when bonded to a human host.

I don't think Zod NEEDS to be racist or delight in murder. To my way of thinking, he's Superman's Doctor Doom: lawful evil.

Now... Faora is a whole different story. She was, if memory serves, implied to be a survivor of abuse who became a serial killer of men. And Zod USES her. There's an element of playing with fire for Zod in that he's, I think, a patriot and a lawful figure who relies on the aid of far less stable people.

Nam-Ek is basically a Kryptonian black magician. Faora is a serial killer. Kru-El is a sadist. Jax-Ur (who was the most prominent Phantom Zoner for a time) is a mad scientist who destroyed an inhabited moon. Mala and U-Ban are criminals.

To my way of thinking Zod's associations with these others are similar to what happens in a Luthor/Joker team-up or when Doom teams up with other Marvel villains. Zod is working with what he has.

My two least favorite takes on Dru-Zod are probably Man of Steel and the Pocket Universe Saga. By depriving Zod of free will in MOS, he was denied his intellect and I think his intellect is an important part of what makes him interesting. Meanwhile, the Pocket Universe saga had him kill billions for, well... no reason. Quex-Ul or Faora doing that, I could see. I think it could have been handled much more interestingly if it wasn't cackling mass murder and it was more a matter of Zod trying to run the world and failing so badly it triggers extinction level changes. Maybe, for instance, he devises a vast Kryptonian machine to end reliance on fossil fuels and it makes the world toxic and he can't accept his error.

I once asked Grant Morrison if the ending to DC One Million might imply that people such as General Zod might exist on the reborn New Krypton. He said something like, "Sure. But who says he has to be a bad guy? Superman Prime sets an example for his people."

I always liked that answer.

[Agent Z]

I know I am in the tiny minority on this, but here goes: I actually do not believe that General Dru-Zod is a worthy villian for Kal-El.

Dru-Zod is clearly the Megatron to JOR-EL's Optimus Prime. They're the ones with the shared history, usually the friendship, then the bitter betrayal and the earned animosity.

Also the General doesn't work without an army. Which means more living Kryptonians. Which I oppose. So I'd like to leave the General on Krypton, killed by Jor and Lara in final combat.

I say, make Ursa (the lone sociopath, not Dru's sub-commander) into Superman's own Joker.

Doesn't that conflict with your "no more Kryptonians" stance.

[Vanguard-01]

I already stated my personal take on Zod in another thread, but I'll happily post it again, here!

Personally? I don't mind the idea of Zod being the only other Kryptonian beyond Superman and Supergirl. Now, I like the idea of Zod being a general with an army at his command. But it doesn't have to be an army of true-blue Kryptonians.

I had this idea that Zod has some kind of Kryptonian tech that allows him to imbue other species with a portion of Kryptonian power. Only a portion. They never get the full Kryptonian power set. Flight, for example, is probably exclusive to Zod. His followers have to make do with super-jumping.

So Zod has the ability to turn people into pocket Kryptonians and recruits humans (and possibly other species) into his new army. How does he recruit? I see him coming to Earth, not to conquer, at least not in the beginning, but to try to build a new Krypton on Earth. He doesn't originally come as a tyrannical conqueror. He sees Superman's popularity on Earth and uses that to his advantage. He comes to Earth peacefully and introduces himself as another survivor of Krypton.

The people of Earth, having only known Superman by this point, welcome another Kryptonian with open arms. Even Superman wants to believe Zod at first. Their first meeting is probably similar to most of Superman's first meetings with Lex Luthor: largely peaceful, with at least a degree of respect being shown by both parties. Superman will, of course, check the Fortress of Solitude's records and discover that Zod is a former criminal, so he may be a bit guarded toward him. But true hostilities don't break out between them until Zod goes and does something overtly bad.

So Zod sets up shop on Earth. He goes out and saves people as well. He begins to make inroads. I like the idea that he and Luthor may strike up something of a friendship. Zod respects Luthor's ambition and ruthlessness. As Zod begins to establish a power base, he begins attracting followers. He constantly talks about the glory of Krypton and what a great and enlightened society it was. A lot of people would be easily seduced by the idea of bringing such a society to Earth. So he starts winning people over with his charisma and he starts enhancing people.

How does he decide who's "worthy?" No racial, gender, or national discrimination here. Here is where Zod's comparison to Hitler come into play. Zod is big on "Will to power." He doesn't just GIVE power to anyone who wants it. In his mind, only the strong deserve the power. His followers have to "prove" themselves to him before he grants them their power. When they prove themselves worthy, he gives them powers, and even a new Kryptonian name. This is how you can still have characters like Faora, Non, Ursa, etc. They're not native Kryptonians. They're humans who earned Zod's favor in his cult.

Zod doesn't actually want to wipe out humanity. He comes to admire humanity in much the same way Superman does. He sees our potential and really believes that he's doing us a favor by trying to turn us into Kryptonians 2.0. He's smart enough to realize that Krypton can never be fully resurrected, so he settles for building a new Krypton instead.

This changes the whole dynamic of Superman and Zod's relationship. Suddenly, their conflict is a war of ideologies, with both sides struggling for the soul of humanity. They are both "Men of Tomorrow." The question that remains to be seen is what shape with Tomorrow take?

[swimmermdg]

General Zod needs to be a military dictator and he should be used as a cosmic threat. He should be out conquering star systems and making the denizens of dozens of star systems kneel before him. He should Mongul's greatest rival and should be the terror of the Khunds, Thanagarians, and Dominators. He should view other beings as being lesser than Kryptonians and should have some manifest destiny ideology that says that Kryptonians should inherit the stars. Because his people are now almost entirely extinct he should be all the more ferocious and he should see the Phantom Zone criminals as his chosen people. The loss of Krypton should drive him mad and wipe out any remnant of mercy left in his villainous heart!

This sounds a lot like the Viltrumites in Invincible. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

[daBronzeBomma]

Doesn't that conflict with your "no more Kryptonians" stance.

Not really. I am opposed in general to the idea of adding more living Kryptonians, as I think Less is More applies here.

But I also realize that Supes probably should not be the only survivor of Krypton either. We got that in the 1980s Post-COIE reboot, and that status did not help Supes and necessitated stupid things like Pocket Universes.

So, to me, the ideal number of living Kryptonians in the DCU is more than 1 but less than 8. I would say the sweet spot is 4.

1. Kal
2. Kara, who starts off as Supergirl and then becomes PowerGal.
3. Krypto
4. Ursa, who could then go by the name "Zod" on Earth if we still want the "Kneel Before" slogan around.

Beyond that quartet, no more living Kryptonians are needed.

Daxamites are not Kryptonians, so Lar Gand is safe, hybrids are allowed, so Connor, Matrix and Jon are still ok.

[Francisco]

I'd see MOS Zod as still more sympathetic than Hitler

Fictional madman will always be more sympathetic than real life madman. Still I think genociding several billions humans is far worse than genociding a few million humans. Yet real humans are more important than fictional ones.

[The Overlord]

Fictional madman will always be more sympathetic than real life madman. Still I think genociding several billions humans is far worse than genociding a few million humans. Yet real humans are more important than fictional ones.

I would argue MOS Zod is more sympathetic then Superman II Zod in terms of motives.

Superman II Zod is just a selfish SOB, with no redeeming qualities, while MOS Zod actually thought he was doing what was right for Krypton, he thought killing humanity to save his own dying race was a fair trade off, he is not like Hitler who just made up conspiracy theories to justify using other people as scape goats and Hitler did not have Germany's best interests at heart, look at Nero Order Hitler gave at the end of the war.

Also MOS Zod was a genetically altered solider who was programmed to defend Krypton, that doesn't give him the same moral agency Donner Zod has.

Now MOS Zod has more heinous actions then Donner Zod, but MOS Zod has more sympathetic motives overall.

[Francisco]

I would argue MOS Zod is more sympathetic then Superman II Zod in terms of motives.

Superman II Zod is just a selfish SOB, with no redeeming qualities, while MOS Zod actually thought he was doing what was right for Krypton, he thought killing humanity to save his own dying race was a fair trade off, he is not like Hitler who just made up conspiracy theories to justify using other people as scape goats and Hitler did have Germany's best interests at heart, look at Nero Order Hitler gave at the end of the war.

Also MOS Zod was a genetically altered solider who was programmed to defend Krypton, that doesn't give him the same moral agency Donner Zod has.

Now MOS Zod has more heinous actions then Donner Zod, but MOS Zod has more sympathetic motives overall.

Very fair points. Totally agree with your assessment

[Robotman]

Sometimes making the villain sympathetic can be a great thing. What Geoff Johns did for Sinestro and Black Adam was truly brilliant. He turned them from two dimensional bullies into nuanced characters that the reader could relate to. But some characters should just remain the evil jerks that showcase how selfless the hero is by comparison. I think Zod is one of those characters. If Superman is the champion of the people and the most compassionate being on the planet, then Zod should be a ruthless dictator who will gain power by any means necessary.
Going back to Johns I think he tries too hard sometimes to make the villains sympathetic. I disliked how he tried to do that with The Crime Syndicate in Forever Evil. The CSA are from the "evil earth" and should be as evil as the JLA is noble.

[Agent Z]

Sometimes making the villain sympathetic can be a great thing. What Geoff Johns did for Sinestro and Black Adam was truly brilliant. He turned them from two dimensional bullies into nuanced characters that the reader could relate to. But some characters should just remain the evil jerks that showcase how selfless the hero is by comparison. I think Zod is one of those characters. If Superman is the champion of the people and the most compassionate being on the planet, then Zod should be a ruthless dictator who will gain power by any means necessary.
Going back to Johns I think he tries too hard sometimes to make the villains sympathetic. I disliked how he tried to do that with The Crime Syndicate in Forever Evil. The CSA are from the "evil earth" and should be as evil as the JLA is noble.

Not that I think Johns did a particularly good job of it, but the CSA had some noble qualities before Morrison's revamp. And frankly, Superman has plenty of enemies that are evil for the sake of it.

[Coal Tiger]

Wasn't there a reason that Zod was in the Phantom Zone to begin with? It couldn't have been because he was a sympathetic, reasonable guy. Even in the eyes of the kryptonians he was a criminal.