IvX #4 SPOILERS

[Ra-El]

I'm not sure I agree they have the right to change the memories of even dictators and war criminals.

But that issue aside, ultimately the Avengers did what had to be done. Again, the point is for the Phoenxi to be in Hope after she's trained to control it. And sitting around with the X-Men wasn't accomplishing that (which is why Hope chose to leave with them). Hope needed to be trained, and the Phoenix needed to be beaten out of the P5 and ultimately into Hope. That's what needed to be done, and that's what they did.

It's ugly and questionable... but it was also necessary. And again I'd argue even the X-Men and P5 would agree with that. And you don't give possessed people the benefit of the doubt... you free them from possesion. If freeing them beings beating the crap out of then, then that's what you gotta do.

So Cyclops also did what have to be done, his main go was to restaure mutankind, he achieve it, it had ugly consequences and had a high price, but Cyclops said he was willing to paid for it and would do it again, if it means going to jail, so be it.

[XPac]

So Cyclops also did what have to be done, his main go was to restaure mutankind, he achieve it, it had ugly consequences and had a high price, but Cyclops said he was willing to paid for it and would do it again, if it means going to jail, so be it.

Avengers helped Cyclops get what he wanted too... that's what I mean when I say the P5 and X-Men would agree the Avengers did what they had to do. Cyclops wanted mutants to return, and the Avengers achieved that for him by training Hope properly and driving the Phoenix out of them and into Hope. In the end it was a win-win situation or everyone. And ideally that's how these hero vs hero conflicts should end. The heroes in the end uniting and saving the day to everyones benefit, like the Avengers and X-Men did in AvX. Maybe we'll get the same in IvX.

Edit: the REAL price paid was probably Xaviers death. Scott was in jail for like 5 seconds, so that's no big deal. But the X-Men lost chuck. So for the X_Men it actually was a pretty high price to pay. But such hazards come with the job. It's not ballet.

[Knives]

I think it wasn't just because the government feared the Phoenix five but as reed questions in that panel that if the avengers were afraid that cyclops would inevitably lose control and become corrupted which lets be real even if the avengers didn't intervene it was only a matter of time before cyclops or Emma or someone else on the Phoenix five became a real threat and went too far.

And even if the Phoenix five imprisoned the avengers simply because they intervened it doesn't in turn make cyclops or anyone on the Phoenix five the right in imprisoning the various members of the avengers indefinitely.

No one could know anything at the time.They could only make assumptions.


But I understand that fear makes people do stupid things.


For me the Avengers acted like the US in the attack on Iraq. They had no concrete evidence yet they made a preemptive strike.

And Cyclops only intended to arrest them for a short time but as some have said some began to show signs of corruption.

For someone who seems to be a fan of Carol it's strange you criticize Cyclops for this when Carol arrested people without evidence .

Anyway just wish the Avengers had given them a chance because the X-men saved humanity several times. I think they deserved the benefit of the doubt for a while but we are talking about heroes vs heroes.

I'm not sure I agree they have the right to change the memories of even dictators and war criminals.

But that issue aside, ultimately the Avengers did what had to be done. Again, the point is for the Phoenxi to be in Hope after she's trained to control it. And sitting around with the X-Men wasn't accomplishing that (which is why Hope chose to leave with them). Hope needed to be trained, and the Phoenix needed to be beaten out of the P5 and ultimately into Hope. That's what needed to be done, and that's what they did.

It's ugly and questionable... but it was also necessary. And again I'd argue even the X-Men and P5 would agree with that. And you don't give possessed people the benefit of the doubt... you free them from possesion. If freeing them beings beating the crap out of then, then that's what you gotta do.

It is worth remembering that Phoenix has been with Rachel and Jean for years without any problems and they have used this power several times to save people and the planet.

The only time Phoenix became evil with Jean was because she was manipulated by the Hell Club.

Finally Phoenix is a cosmic force there was nothing the Avengers, Cyclops and X-men could do to stop her from coming to the planet.

And as hard as they try will never accept the 3-day karate kid training as a way to master a cosmic force.

No matter how look at it, every negative action begins when the Avengers try to attack the X-mens.The same goes for IvX is the same story someone always creates a problem for mutants and X-mens have to clean up the mess.

[Ra-El]

Avengers helped Cyclops get what he wanted too... that's what I mean when I say the P5 and X-Men would agree the Avengers did what they had to do. Cyclops wanted mutants to return, and the Avengers achieved that for him by training Hope properly and driving the Phoenix out of them and into Hope. In the end it was a win-win situation or everyone. And ideally that's how these hero vs hero conflicts should end. The heroes in the end uniting and saving the day to everyones benefit, like the Avengers and X-Men did in AvX. Maybe we'll get the same in IvX.

Edit: the REAL price paid was probably Xaviers death. Scott was in jail for like 5 seconds, so that's no big deal. But the X-Men lost chuck. So for the X_Men it actually was a pretty high price to pay. But such hazards come with the job. It's not ballet.

Yeah the Avengers were crucial to the end results, but we must remeber that for them it was a side effect to stoping the P5, when Captain America went to Utopia he didn't intended to help Hope training to control the Phoenix, his go was to keep her out of reach while the Avengers deal with the Phoenix. He only resorted to training Hope when they had no other way to stop the P5.

And yes, Cyclops did escape from prison, but he was in deed willing to go to jail for what he did. And he didn't even went to trial, because the goverment feared that he could be found not guilt, because he was possessed and a great number of people was sympathetic with him. So they locked him up in a prison the was insecured in hope that one of the prisioners would kill him, and Captain America knew it and did nothing.
AvX Consequences was the best part of the whole thing.

[XPac]

No one could know anything at the time.They could only make assumptions.


But I understand that fear makes people do stupid things.


For me the Avengers acted like the US in the attack on Iraq. They had no concrete evidence yet they made a preemptive strike.

And Cyclops only intended to arrest them for a short time but as some have said some began to show signs of corruption.

For someone who seems to be a fan of Carol it's strange you criticize Cyclops for this when Carol arrested people without evidence .

Anyway just wish the Avengers had given them a chance because the X-men saved humanity several times. I think they deserved the benefit of the doubt for a while but we are talking about heroes vs heroes.






It is worth remembering that Phoenix has been with Rachel and Jean for years without any problems and they have used this power several times to save people and the planet.

The only time Phoenix became evil with Jean was because she was manipulated by the Hell Club.

Finally Phoenix is a cosmic force there was nothing the Avengers, Cyclops and X-men could do to stop her from coming to the planet.

And as hard as they try will never accept the 3-day karate kid training as a way to master a cosmic force.

No matter how look at it, every negative action begins when the Avengers try to attack the X-mens.The same goes for IvX is the same story someone always creates a problem for mutants and X-mens have to clean up the mess.

And ultimately that was the problem though. Because the X-Men's previous experiences with the Phoenix were relatively managable, they took this too lightly. They didn't really do anything (or at least enough) to prepare Hope, thinking it would be similar to Jean or Rachel. But in this instance it wasn't, and as a result she was unprepared. The Avengers conversely acted out of fear, and that fear motivated them to try literally everything they could think of until they were able to find the sollution to the problem.

Both sides in their own way were wrong, but the Avengers way of doing things ultimately proved necessary. It's a case of too much being better than too little. And again, it wall worked out. Mutants were restored, the world was saved, and everyone got what they wanted. As ugly as things got, it went down the way it needed to go down the get the desired end result everyone wanted.

[Revoirver2]

https://comicnewbies.com/2015/02/08/...es-pax-utopia/

isn't the reason Avenger attacked because Phoenix Five gave the nations an Ultimatum ?. before that action, t'chala give them benefit of doubt.

[anthony_lynch15]

I thought I'd accidentally opened a rescurrected AvX thread for a second.
There hasn't even been a post about Inhumans vs X-Men since page 27.

[anthony_lynch15]

Well I really liked this issue.
Good character interactions, some nice character moments, great art and Magneto excusing himself for a bathroom break.

Mosaic was interesting to read.
Both for how he views the X-Men - "stay away from the blondes"
To his novice attitude to the world of superheroics.
Even his description of the different levels of resistance the X-men seem to have against him.

The Inhuman escape was okay although I again question the stupidity of locking them up together.
Nice to see the Royals actually do something though.
I like the Nuhuman characters but so far there hasn't been enough done with the Inhuman Royals for my taste.

Loved the Colossus scenes, he had a few cool moments.
At the thought of taking on the Inhuman Royal family by himself:
"Is no problem Ororo. Just wished to clarify"
and
"All right my friends. Who is to be first?"

The scene at the end where Mosaic tells the Nuhumans about how the cloud going to kill all mutants within days
and that's why the X-Men felt the had to attack - that was a breath of fresh air in the Marvel Event world of hero on hero violence.

Looking forward to the next issue.

Here's my "Parody Summary" of the issue.

[dragonmp93]

And ultimately that was the problem though. Because the X-Men's previous experiences with the Phoenix were relatively managable, they took this too lightly. They didn't really do anything (or at least enough) to prepare Hope, thinking it would be similar to Jean or Rachel. But in this instance it wasn't, and as a result she was unprepared. The Avengers conversely acted out of fear, and that fear motivated them to try literally everything they could think of until they were able to find the sollution to the problem.

Both sides in their own way were wrong, but the Avengers way of doing things ultimately proved necessary. It's a case of too much being better than too little. And again, it wall worked out. Mutants were restored, the world was saved, and everyone got what they wanted. As ugly as things got, it went down the way it needed to go down the get the desired end result everyone wanted.

Well, if Cyclops had listened to Captain Hydra since the beginning; it would have led to the destroyed that Cable saw.

https://comicnewbies.com/2015/02/08/...es-pax-utopia/

isn't the reason Avenger attacked because Phoenix Five gave the nations an Ultimatum ?. before that action, t'chala give them benefit of doubt.

The Inhumans do that all time, isnt it ?
And yeah, because giving free food and energy to the entire planet are things that only a complete monster like Cyclops would do.

I thought I'd accidentally opened a rescurrected AvX thread for a second.
There hasn't even been a post about Inhumans vs X-Men since page 27.

Well, as you may remember and noticed, AvX is still an open wound for some of us.

[Revoirver2]

Well, if Cyclops had listened to Captain Hydra since the beginning; it would have led to the destroyed that Cable saw.

Cable saw hope didn't become host earth doom.. Cyclop didn't gave Phoenix to Hope so..

The Inhumans do that all time, isnt it ?
And yeah, because giving free food and energy to the entire planet are things that only a complete monster like Cyclops would do.

do what gave the U.N ultimatum ?
look the next page on site i give you ... how can you support that, some Mortal with the power of God told humanity how to behave...

if you support cyclops in AvX then you should like what black bolt do. both of them do whatever needed for their people.

[XPac]

Well, if Cyclops had listened to Captain Hydra since the beginning; it would have led to the destroyed that Cable saw.



The Inhumans do that all time, isnt it ?
And yeah, because giving free food and energy to the entire planet are things that only a complete monster like Cyclops would do.



Well, as you may remember and noticed, AvX is still an open wound for some of us.

Time travelers can be tricky. According to Cable Hope I'd needed to prevent a dystopian future. According to Bishop she causes one. Dammed if you do and dammed if you don't.

That said I do believe the actual conflict between the X-Men and Avengers was necessary. If they cooperated and worked together Stark probably wouldn't have created the Phoenix buster, which was necessary for preventing Phoenix from claiming Hope before it was necessary. So Scott and Steve not seeing eye to eye initially ended up being a good thing.

[Mike_Murdock]

I hope the AvX talk dies down. It really has nothing to do with this event and, at least so far, this is a far more entertaining event, imo.

Here's my "Parody Summary" of the issue.

I don't know why, but I laughed out loud with the "Should we at least prop him up or something" line.

[dragonmp93]

Cable saw hope didn't become host earth doom.. Cyclop didn't gave Phoenix to Hope so..

And whose fault is that ?.

do what gave the U.N ultimatum ?
look the next page on site i give you ... how can you support that, some Mortal with the power of God told humanity how to behave...

if you support cyclops in AvX then you should like what black bolt do. both of them do whatever needed for their people.

And that's why world peace is never going to happen in real life.

Anyways, first, according to the canon, Cyclops was wrong for everything that he did in AvX, dont you remember Captain Hydra's "Dont you dare to turn this into a win." speech, so with that logic, Blackbolt is wrong as well; and second, where did i said that i dont, if you have been reading my posts, you may have noticed that my point has been that the Inhumans only care about themselves, and they dont give a $%&/&% about the mutants.

Time travelers can be tricky. According to Cable Hope I'd needed to prevent a dystopian future. According to Bishop she causes one. Dammed if you do and dammed if you don't.

That said I do believe the actual conflict between the X-Men and Avengers was necessary. If they cooperated and worked together Stark probably wouldn't have created the Phoenix buster, which was necessary for preventing Phoenix from claiming Hope before it was necessary. So Scott and Steve not seeing eye to eye initially ended up being a good thing.

Well, i think that you are confusing Bishop with Ruby Summers; Bishop's bad future is a self-fulfilling prophesy that he ended up creating by trying to kill Hope.

I hope the AvX talk dies down. It really has nothing to do with this event and, at least so far, this is a far more entertaining event, imo.



I don't know why, but I laughed out loud with the "Should we at least prop him up or something" line.

If the House of M talk hasnt died down, even though it was has been more than 10 years, I dont think that the AvX talk is going to die either.

[Knives]

I thought I'd accidentally opened a rescurrected AvX thread for a second.
There hasn't even been a post about Inhumans vs X-Men since page 27.

To be fair AvX and IvX have a lot in common.

In both cases the mutants and X-mens were taking care of their lives until someone created a problem (Wanda or BB). As they did not have the will or the means to solve the problem the X-men had to look for alternatives to save their lives and their people. In the case of AvX was Hope and Phoenix and in the case of IvX was to destroy the mist.

In both a group stood against them in the case of AvX the Avengers for believing that the Phoenix was dangerous and should be stopped even if it was the last hope of the mutants. In IvX the Inhumans since the mist is sacred to them and without it future Inhumans would not have access to their powers even if mutants are dying in the process.

In both cases there were only character losses with names on the mutant side.

In both cases the X-men had the upper hand for a while.

And now many believe that in IvX Emma will be the scapegoat just as Scott was on AvX to unite both against a common enemy.


I certainly see a pattern.

[Mike_Murdock]

If the House of M talk hasnt died down, even though it was has been more than 10 years, I dont think that the AvX talk is going to die either.

I'm not saying it should die (although I think House of M is a much better story); I'm saying it doesn't make sense to derail this event by talking about something that has nothing to do with it. All that does is give the impression that people are projecting their feelings about that on this.