What is holding up Peter's villains from being as popular as Batman's

[The Overlord]

The Joker has rarely if ever been a particularly deep character. His popularity in the mainstream is owed more to the guys who played him than the character himself.



Octopus, Kingpin, Kraven, Osborn and even Venom have been imagined differently. On the other hand I see little to no difference between Joker, Two-Face and Bane. The only guy with varying interpretations is Mr Freeze and only one of those interpretations is actually liked.



Marvel pushes Spider-Man and his villains great. People know and love Dr. Octopus and even Sandman thanks to the Raimi films. Venom was a misstep, yes, but even fans will admit that. They also have the various tv shows and games.

I’d say this hits Batman’s villains a lot more actually. Bane has been more of a thug for hire for a long time than a criminal mastermind, Croc went from a crime boss with skin condition to being a ripoff of the Lizard, Ivy is more often than not a straw misandrist/environmentalist and the less said of how increasingly psychotic the Joker was getting even before the New 52, the better.



And you know this how? Because every adaptation of the Lizard story involves Connor trying to replace his arm.



Simplification and stagnation is pretty much what has been hitting the Bat villains for the most part. There is very little difference in how they’ve been portrayed.

I think a big problem with a lot of Spider-Man villains is their stories lack any sort of stakes.

You called Joker a one dimensional character, you can argue Shocker is the same, he is just a greedy bank robber. But here is the difference, if Batman fails to stop Joker, people die, if Spidey fails to stop Shocker, Shocker gets away with some money that will ruined by an ink pack and a bank will have to pay higher insurance rates, I know which story I would be more invested in.

Guys like Shocker, Vulture, Electro, Rhino, Mysterio really come off as obstacles rather then characters and they represent nothing in terms of real stakes, Mysterio causing Spidey to question himself for a day or Vulture robbing bank doesn't really matter, it has no impact on anything.

There are way to get around this, Kevin Smith had Mysterio raise the stakes when he tried to drive Daredevil insane, rather then just making him feel bad for a day, I think Smith went too far into grim dark turf with the character (infanticide seems a bit much for Mysterio) but I would prefer Mysterio be creepy rather then campy. Captain Cold is a bank robber, but he is a far better character then Shocker, Electro, etc, because he is given humanizing moments all the time, stories spend time with his code of ethics, his relationship with his father, sister, etc. I will say they made Rhino somewhat compelling, because he got married and his wife died in a tragic manner. Either give these guys more high stakes stories or give them more characterization. Make Mysterio more creepy, make Shocker more honorable, etc.

The reason why Green Goblin, Dr Octopus and Venom rise to the top, Gobby and Vemon represent personal stakes for Spidey, while Ock represents greater scope stakes with schemes that endanger the entire city. More Batman villains either have better characterization or present bigger stakes then Spidey's villains.

[SpideyCeo]

I think a big problem with a lot of Spider-Man villains is their stories lack any sort of stakes.

You called Joker a one dimensional character, you can argue Shocker is the same, he is just a greedy bank robber. But here is the difference, if Batman fails to stop Joker, people die, if Spidey fails to stop Shocker, Shocker gets away with some money that will ruined by an ink pack and a bank will have to pay higher insurance rates, I know which story I would be more invested in.

Guys like Shocker, Vulture, Electro, Rhino, Mysterio really come off as obstacles rather then characters and they represent nothing in terms of real stakes, Mysterio causing Spidey to question himself for a day or Vulture robbing bank doesn't really matter, it has no impact on anything.

There are way to get around this, Kevin Smith had Mysterio raise the stakes when he tried to drive Daredevil insane, rather then just making him feel bad for a day, I think Smith went too far into grim dark turf with the character (infanticide seems a bit much for Mysterio) but I would prefer Mysterio be creepy rather then campy. Captain Cold is a bank robber, but he is a far better character then Shocker, Electro, etc, because he is given humanizing moments all the time, stories spend time with his code of ethics, his relationship with his father, sister, etc. I will say they made Rhino somewhat compelling, because he got married and his wife died in a tragic manner. Either give these guys more high stakes stories or give them more characterization. Make Mysterio more creepy, make Shocker more honorable, etc.

The reason why Green Goblin, Dr Octopus and Venom rise to the top, Gobby and Vemon represent personal stakes for Spidey, while Ock represents greater scope stakes with schemes that endanger the entire city. More Batman villains either have better characterization or present bigger stakes then Spidey's villains.

Plus you could say spidey doesn't think of himself important to be his villains caretaker like batman is to his, so he leaves them to torment him and his life because his own desired narrow minded status quo in wanting to not treat his superhero life as a 24/7 job.

[SpideyCeo]

Nothing in Spider-Man's rogues or even friends compares to The Joker and Catwoman. Batman just has a answer for everything in world building, story telling, character focus and sometimes villain stories and lastly has more freedom and creativity to make Gotham city extend beyond Bruce to the point Batman makes his series extended to other dc hero books and act as a lynchpin of dc stories in terms of letting Batman cast represent humanities peak human resources against metas and aliens.

Spidey is lucky to bring doc pack by his lonesome as a main player of marvel u centered stories outside the comics.

[marhawkman]

I would argue that Norman Osborn and Felicia Hardy are at least close. Also, Venom.

[SpideyCeo]

I would argue that Norman Osborn and Felicia Hardy are at least close. Also, Venom.

Nowadays in doubt Norman and Felicia are even as famous as ock.

[Grim Ghost]

I think a big problem with a lot of Spider-Man villains is their stories lack any sort of stakes.

You called Joker a one dimensional character, you can argue Shocker is the same, he is just a greedy bank robber. But here is the difference, if Batman fails to stop Joker, people die, if Spidey fails to stop Shocker, Shocker gets away with some money that will ruined by an ink pack and a bank will have to pay higher insurance rates, I know which story I would be more invested in.

Guys like Shocker, Vulture, Electro, Rhino, Mysterio really come off as obstacles rather then characters and they represent nothing in terms of real stakes, Mysterio causing Spidey to question himself for a day or Vulture robbing bank doesn't really matter, it has no impact on anything.

There are way to get around this, Kevin Smith had Mysterio raise the stakes when he tried to drive Daredevil insane, rather then just making him feel bad for a day, I think Smith went too far into grim dark turf with the character (infanticide seems a bit much for Mysterio) but I would prefer Mysterio be creepy rather then campy. Captain Cold is a bank robber, but he is a far better character then Shocker, Electro, etc, because he is given humanizing moments all the time, stories spend time with his code of ethics, his relationship with his father, sister, etc. I will say they made Rhino somewhat compelling, because he got married and his wife died in a tragic manner. Either give these guys more high stakes stories or give them more characterization. Make Mysterio more creepy, make Shocker more honorable, etc.

The reason why Green Goblin, Dr Octopus and Venom rise to the top, Gobby and Vemon represent personal stakes for Spidey, while Ock represents greater scope stakes with schemes that endanger the entire city. More Batman villains either have better characterization or present bigger stakes then Spidey's villains.

Well most of them are generally trying to kill Spider-Man. I'd say those are fairly high stakes. Mysterio has tried to drive Spidey insane, it was a lot more than just "making him feel bad for a day".

[Agent Z]

With Venom getting his own movie, maybe now we can see how well the character stands up against other Bat villains.

[Frontier]

With Venom getting his own movie, maybe now we can see how well the character stands up against other Bat villains.

Even though he's probably not going to ever fight Spider-Man in his movie .

[The Overlord]

Well most of them are generally trying to kill Spider-Man. I'd say those are fairly high stakes. Mysterio has tried to drive Spidey insane, it was a lot more than just "making him feel bad for a day".

But that's what every villain does, every villain tries to kill the hero, its the most basic thing a villain can do. You don't think Batman villains don't try to kill Batman?

What was Mysterio ever done to Spidey that had any real impact him, rather then something he would forget about in a week?

Really having Spidey villains up their game to be as iconic as the Batman villains. Give Spidey's villains more defined moral characteristics and have them play off each other. Make someone like Mysterio more actively sadistic, who enjoys breaking minds and has no problem hurting innocent people or using really cruel tactics to mess with Spidey, with Mysterio making Spidey think he killed an innocent person (with Mysterio killing that person instead) and having someone like Sandman object to such vile tactics.

Iconic villains don't just try to rob banks and kill the heroes, they do something really impactful or give them more interesting relationship with the hero, where the villain has redeeming qualities and their relationship is more nuanced then the villain just trying to kill the hero so he can rob more banks.

Not all Spidey villains need to just to be bank robbers and the ones who are need to be given more redeeming qualities, greedy is not a great unique trait you can give to a villain.

[Agent Z]

But that's what every villain does, every villain tries to kill the hero, its the most basic thing a villain can do. You don't think Batman villains don't try to kill Batman?

What was Mysterio ever done to Spidey that had any real impact him, rather then something he would forget about in a week?

Really having Spidey villains up their game to be as iconic as the Batman villains. Give Spidey's villains more defined moral characteristics and have them play off each other. Make someone like Mysterio more actively sadistic, who enjoys breaking minds and has no problem hurting innocent people or using really cruel tactics to mess with Spidey, with Mysterio making Spidey think he killed an innocent person (with Mysterio killing that person instead) and having someone like Sandman object to such vile tactics.

Iconic villains don't just try to rob banks and kill the heroes, they do something really impactful or give them more interesting relationship with the hero, where the villain has redeeming qualities and their relationship is more nuanced then the villain just trying to kill the hero so he can rob more banks.

Not all Spidey villains need to just to be bank robbers and the ones who are need to be given more redeeming qualities, greedy is not a great unique trait you can give to a villain.

Spider-Man's battles with Green Goblin and Dr. octopus typically have stakes. The former is a deadly crime boss and the former has shot for world domination a number of times. His rogues gallery is not lacking in sadistic monsters like the aforementioned Goblin and Carnage. And Several of his villains have also shown redeeming qualities like Shocker, Sandman, Black Cat, Prowler and Molten Man. Really all of what you've asked for has been done.

[Agent Z]

But that's what every villain does, every villain tries to kill the hero, its the most basic thing a villain can do. You don't think Batman villains don't try to kill Batman?

What was Mysterio ever done to Spidey that had any real impact him, rather then something he would forget about in a week?

Really having Spidey villains up their game to be as iconic as the Batman villains. Give Spidey's villains more defined moral characteristics and have them play off each other. Make someone like Mysterio more actively sadistic, who enjoys breaking minds and has no problem hurting innocent people or using really cruel tactics to mess with Spidey, with Mysterio making Spidey think he killed an innocent person (with Mysterio killing that person instead) and having someone like Sandman object to such vile tactics.

Iconic villains don't just try to rob banks and kill the heroes, they do something really impactful or give them more interesting relationship with the hero, where the villain has redeeming qualities and their relationship is more nuanced then the villain just trying to kill the hero so he can rob more banks.

Not all Spidey villains need to just to be bank robbers and the ones who are need to be given more redeeming qualities, greedy is not a great unique trait you can give to a villain.

Spider-Man's battles with Green Goblin and Dr. octopus typically have stakes. The former is a deadly crime boss and the former has shot for world domination a number of times. His rogues gallery is not lacking in sadistic monsters like the aforementioned Goblin and Carnage. And Several of his villains have also shown redeeming qualities like Shocker, Sandman, Black Cat, Prowler and Molten Man. Really all of what you've asked for has been done.

[The Overlord]

Spider-Man's battles with Green Goblin and Dr. octopus typically have stakes. The former is a deadly crime boss and the former has shot for world domination a number of times. His rogues gallery is not lacking in sadistic monsters like the aforementioned Goblin and Carnage. And Several of his villains have also shown redeeming qualities like Shocker, Sandman, Black Cat, Prowler and Molten Man. Really all of what you've asked for has been done.

So what are only a few Spider-Man villain representative of any real stakes and the rest are not? That makes the non A-list villains look like a waste of time. Shouldn't all the villains be compelling, not just the big ones.


Really what is Shocker's redeeming qualities? Because I remember a story where he tried to kill 12 innocent at the behest of a psycho crime boss. Shocker could be a compelling villain, but he has no consistent writing, because the writers put no real time or effort into him. I have seen Shocker type characters done way better in other comics, Shocker sucks compared to say Captain Cold.

Also having Sandman's character development underminded by mind control, was really bad writing. It took the character back rather then moved him forward.

I haven't gotten what I want, I have gotten glimpses at what I want, but the writers have not put in the time and effort to really make something of the non A-list Spidey villains. You can't just hint at characterization, like they do with Shocker, do a story with him that expands the character, I am sick of hints or glimpses of a good character we never get see. Keven Smith gave us a terrifying Mysterio, but now he is back to being a campy gimmick villain.

Give these villains a direction beyond generic greedy criminal and stick with it, that is how you raise these villains profile, not just another story where they rob banks and try to kill Spidey, which you could copy from 1965.

[Agent Z]

So what are only a few Spider-Man villain representative of any real stakes and the rest are not? That makes the non A-list villains look like a waste of time. Shouldn't all the villains be compelling, not just the big ones.

Most villains of rogues galleries aren’t compelling. IMO, Spider-Man has more compelling villains in his cast than Batman’s who more often than not are just written as generic crime bosses, psychotic murderers or some combination of both. Right now the most compelling Bat villains are Harley and Clayface and they aren’t written as villains.

Really what is Shocker's redeeming qualities? Because I remember a story where he tried to kill 12 innocent at the behest of a psycho crime boss. Shocker could be a compelling villain, but he has no consistent writing, because the writers put no real time or effort into him. I have seen Shocker type characters done way better in other comics, Shocker sucks compared to say Captain Cold.

Shocker’s redeeming qualities are that he’s a professional. He’s not doing crime for fun or to settle a petty grudge, he just wants to do a job and get paid. He’s one of the more rational super villains and has a code of honor of sorts that he sticks to for the most part. Sure some writers will ignore this but that happens to any long running character.

Also having Sandman's character development underminded by mind control, was really bad writing. It took the character back rather then moved him forward.

Don’t know what this is in reference to.

I haven't gotten what I want, I have gotten glimpses at what I want, but the writers have not put in the time and effort to really make something of the non A-list Spidey villains. You can't just hint at characterization, like they do with Shocker, do a story with him that expands the character,

I recommend reading Superior Foes of Spider-Man.

I am sick of hints or glimpses of a good character we never get see. Keven Smith gave us a terrifying Mysterio, but now he is back to being a campy gimmick villain.

I didn’t care for Smith’s version of Mysterio. Not every super villains needs to be a sadistic monster.

Give these villains a direction beyond generic greedy criminal and stick with it, that is how you raise these villains profile, not just another story where they rob banks and try to kill Spidey, which you could copy from 1965.

They’ve been given roles beyond that and many of them don’t even fit that mold such as Venom, Carnage, Kraven, Lizard or Morlun.
I don’t know what more I can say. If you genuinely did not see any depth then I doubt you ever will.

[Aura Blaize]

I recommend reading Superior Foes of Spider-Man.

Sandman was part of Sable's Wild Pack and was pretty much a hero but it was all revealed to be because he Wizard had messed with his mind or something like that. It honest was a REALLY stupid move.