What DC will learn from the Rebirth initiative?

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I get what you're saying. You aren't happy with the history that the current stories are built on being changed and altered without explanation, but unfortunately that's what's happened here. At least in the exact way they were told before. Who's to say Blackest Night wasn't changed entirely anyway? It hasn't been revisited yet as far as I know. Just mentioned here and there. It obviously happened way differently to gel with the current timeline, but they're obviously avoiding getting too deep into details to avoid having to explain it.

Honestly dude, I understand your point and I get that you're frustrated about it. It's a pain in the ass when they come along and just wipe away continuity on a whim. Hopefully the New 52 thought them a much needed lesson about reboots.

I'm just saying that if DC wants to act as if these Pre-Flashpoint events are part of their continuity, then they have to at least reestablish the continuity that was needed to make them work, because in a lot of cases, the continuity as it stands can't support them in any recognizable form. That's why I think Rebirth likely will end in a lion's share of Pre-FP canon being reestablished. If only in order to have things like that make sense.

[Colossus1980]

I don't know if the DCU could survive solely on a Legends of the Dark Knight/Legends of the DC Universe/JLA Classified/JSA Classified format where each title and story is self-contained.

I love this idea. It would be great if both Marvel and DC do this approach to all new series. Then we can see if series can stand on its own without continuity and big events. Just one-shots and a few arcs for each character or team.

[GlennSimpson]

You continue to ignore the rather pretentious statement in your own signature. You dismiss everyone else's opinion but YOURS as simply "their opinion," yet consider your own to be irrefutable truth. You can't have it both ways, unless you're just here to troll.

My opinion is just my opinion. But some opinions are more well-informed and based on objectivity than others.

[Lee Stone]

I love this idea. It would be great if both Marvel and DC do this approach to all new series. Then we can see if series can stand on its own without continuity and big events. Just one-shots and a few arcs for each character or team.

Justice League #1-6: Batman, Superman, Flash, Green Lantern/Hal Jordan, Wonder Woman, J'onn J'onzz vs. Despero.
Justice League #7-12: Blue Beetle, Captain Atom, Question, Nightshade, Peacemaker, Judomaster, Thunderbolt vs. The Key.
Justice League #13-18: Batman, Green Arrow, Black Canary, Black Lightning, Vixen, Crimson Fox vs. Weaponmaster.
Justice League #19-24: Superman, Captain Marvel, Mister Miracle, Starfire, Adam Strange, Dr. Fate, Maxima vs. Mongul.

Batman #1-6: Bruce Wayne Batman, Dick Grayson Robin, Barbara Gordon Batgirl vs. Joker, Riddler, Penguin, Catwoman, Two-Face, Mr. Freeze.
Batman #7-12: Bruce Wayne Batman, Damien Wayne Robin vs. Killer Croc.
Batman #13-18: Damien Wayne Batman, Carrie Kelley Robin vs. Phantasm.
Batman #19-24: Dick Grayson Batman, Barbara Gordon Batwoman vs. Clayface.

Superman #1-6: Clark Kent Superman vs. Lex Luthor.
Superman #7-12: Clark Kent Superboy vs. Brainiac.
Superman #13-18: Jor-El Superman vs. Maxima.
Superman #19-24: Clark Kent Superman of Thanagar.

[GlennSimpson]

I don't know if the DCU could survive solely on a Legends of the Dark Knight/Legends of the DC Universe/JLA Classified/JSA Classified format where each title and story is self-contained.

It would be interesting to see DC or Marvel try to do a Dynamite approach with all the ongoings replaced with self-contained mini-series, with each creative team interpreting the characters differently to fit their stories...
But it wouldn't be a shared universe anymore.
Just a bunch of similarly looking Elseworlds stories that 'could' work together if a reader ignored the small details.

Of course, it doesn't have to go so far in that direction either...it's just a matter of "this is the new history as defined since the last reboot". The books can still share a universe and have crossovers and whatnot.

[Colossus1980]

Of course, it doesn't have to go so far in that direction either...it's just a matter of "this is the new history as defined since the last reboot". The books can still share a universe and have crossovers and whatnot.

Sometimes I wonder if readers(not just you) don't care about continuity or characters being replaced(over at Marvel) then what's the use of sticking to one comic book company? If stories are what makes you a fan, then what's stopping those types of readers from reading a wide range of different titles from different companies? Why bother with consistency of storylines if every writer is going to retcon it anyway?

Why is there such a thing as a Marvel and DC fan if both companies tend to either retcon a lot of storylines or just replace heroes or give them different personalities all the time?

[GlennSimpson]

Sometimes I wonder if readers(not just you) don't care about continuity or characters being replaced(over at Marvel) then what's the use of sticking to one comic book company? If stories are what makes you a fan, then what's stopping those types of readers from reading a wide range of different titles from different companies? Why bother with consistency of storylines if every writer is going to retcon it anyway?

Why is there such a thing as a Marvel and DC fan if both companies tend to either retcon a lot of storylines or just replace heroes or give them different personalities all the time?

Maybe there shouldn't be...

That said, one can like Superman, Batman, etc. or Spider-Man, Captain America, etc. as concepts rather than specifics and enjoy the stories.

Or another way of looking at it is just as I might like "Batman", whether it's in comics, movies, or TV, I can also like "DC" whether it's pre-Crisis, post-Crisis, new52, etc.

Arguably, a real "fan" will stick with whatever they are a fan of regardless of when things change a bit. Do fans of a particular team change their allegiance (generally speaking) when the team's members change, or the coaching staff changes? I mean, yeah, some do, but in general?

[Colossus1980]

Justice League #1-6: Batman, Superman, Flash, Green Lantern/Hal Jordan, Wonder Woman, J'onn J'onzz vs. Despero.
Justice League #7-12: Blue Beetle, Captain Atom, Question, Nightshade, Peacemaker, Judomaster, Thunderbolt vs. The Key.
Justice League #13-18: Batman, Green Arrow, Black Canary, Black Lightning, Vixen, Crimson Fox vs. Weaponmaster.
Justice League #19-24: Superman, Captain Marvel, Mister Miracle, Starfire, Adam Strange, Dr. Fate, Maxima vs. Mongul.

Batman #1-6: Bruce Wayne Batman, Dick Grayson Robin, Barbara Gordon Batgirl vs. Joker, Riddler, Penguin, Catwoman, Two-Face, Mr. Freeze.
Batman #7-12: Bruce Wayne Batman, Damien Wayne Robin vs. Killer Croc.
Batman #13-18: Damien Wayne Batman, Carrie Kelley Robin vs. Phantasm.
Batman #19-24: Dick Grayson Batman, Barbara Gordon Batwoman vs. Clayface.

Superman #1-6: Clark Kent Superman vs. Lex Luthor.
Superman #7-12: Clark Kent Superboy vs. Brainiac.
Superman #13-18: Jor-El Superman vs. Maxima.
Superman #19-24: Clark Kent Superman of Thanagar.

I love those ideas. Every title can be an ongoing Elseworlds. Forget the continuity. Forget the consistency. Let's see how long DC and Marvel can last as a company when each issue strives to only tell a story arc.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Maybe there shouldn't be...

Okay, you tell Marvel and DC that they shouldn't bother building up their universes because the majority of fans are just being "silly" for getting invested in the continuity of said universes.

That said, one can like Superman, Batman, etc. or Spider-Man, Captain America, etc. as concepts rather than specifics and enjoy the stories.

Again, not really. You do realize that if you treat characters as "concepts," they basically cease to be developed and flushed out characters and become nothing more than two-dimensional props, don't you? That approach may appeal to 10-year-olds, but for more adult readers, it just doesn't fly.

And if we're to treat these characters as nothing but mere concepts, explain what separates Batman from Moon Knight or Superman from Sentry and Hyperion. After all, those characters are all basically identical conceptually in many regards. So, therefore, what really separates one character from his analogue that is basically an identical copy?

The answer is the mythology of one character versus the other. And what defines the mythology of a character? Uh, that would be the continuity. For example, Moon Knight never had a sidekick of his die at the hands of his arch enemy, and then have that sidekick resurrected years later as an anti-hero. Hyperion never fought a rampaging monster through the streets of New York and died in the process and then had his death mourned almost worldwide. Moon Knight never had his back broken by one of his super villains and then had a violent assassin of a clandestine religious order taking over his role.

Like it or not, these characters are defined by what they've done in the past and that's all that differentiates them from each other. When you wipe away their history and mythology, all you have left is a name and a power set. And that may work if you approach literature the same way you do a fighting video game, but if you want actual depth and texture to a character, they have to be able to maintain the developments that take place in their lives.

Or another way of looking at it is just as I might like "Batman", whether it's in comics, movies, or TV, I can also like "DC" whether it's pre-Crisis, post-Crisis, new52, etc.

Okay, well pretty much every animated or alternate version of Batman and any other character makes reference to stories from the source material. Batman Begins drew heavily from Year One, almost every DTV DC animated movie has been adapted from some story that was originally told in the comics (Killing Joke, Year One, Superman/Batman: Public Enemies, Under the Red Hood, etc.), etc. Even Young Justice and the Dark Knight Returns comic made reference to the death of Jason Todd that took place in the main DC continuity. And almost every X-Men cartoon/adaptation has at least some reference to the Dark Phoenix Saga.

Movies, TV shows, etc. all draw on the mythology that is the product of the comics continuity. There's good reason the DC animated ventures lost the critical praise they once got once they "New 52-ized" their animated universe.

Arguably, a real "fan" will stick with whatever they are a fan of regardless of when things change a bit. Do fans of a particular team change their allegiance (generally speaking) when the team's members change, or the coaching staff changes? I mean, yeah, some do, but in general?

So, you're saying that the people who become invested in a character's history and continuity aren't real fans?? If anything, if someone is invested in the stories of the character and their history, then that makes them MORE of a fan. Only knowing a character on a casual level, without any investment or attachment to character development or growth may be your way, but at least know that you are NOT the norm.