Was New 52 doomed from the start?

[superduperman]

Was there just too much animosity towards the reboot for New 52 Superman, or any of the titles, really, to ever succeed? Are we just going full circle and what is happening now inevitable? It seems like a lot of people were so upset about the dissolution of the marriage that they were never going to give the reboot a chance. Sort of like Brand New Day. I know Spider-Man fans that to this day still won't touch the books until the marriage is restored. Now Marvel has sort of caved giving the Renew Your Vows mini it's own ongoing. So was New 52 doomed to failure before it even took off? I know a lot of people hated the direction books like Wonder Woman took but Superman was basically your classic version with a new suit. Was there just too much working against the entire concept of the New 52 for it to ever truly be accepted by fans?

[rui no onna]

Quite honestly, I think people would have stayed and eventually gotten used to the New 52 status quo regardless of who Supes is dating if DC had just kept delivering good stories.

[Doctor Know]

Was there just too much animosity towards the reboot for New 52 Superman, or any of the titles, really, to ever succeed? Are we just going full circle and what is happening now inevitable? It seems like a lot of people were so upset about the dissolution of the marriage that they were never going to give the reboot a chance. Sort of like Brand New Day. I know Spider-Man fans that to this day still won't touch the books until the marriage is restored. Now Marvel has sort of caved giving the Renew Your Vows mini it's own ongoing. So was New 52 doomed to failure before it even took off? I know a lot of people hated the direction books like Wonder Woman took but Superman was basically your classic version with a new suit. Was there just too much working against the entire concept of the New 52 for it to ever truly be accepted by fans?

Considering what preceded New 52 Supes (New Krypton, Grounded, Reign of Doomsday etc), the reboot Supes was the shot in the arm the IP needed. However, the problems that plagued Superman before the reboot, resurfaced during the New 52 era as well. Plus, too much creative liberty/fanfiction from the writers, a general lack of direction of what they were trying to accomplish with the character, and the various titles being sabotaged by events of the year (Future's End, Forever Evil, Doomed, Convergence) all helped to throw the title off kilter.

Remember, DC YOU Superman Truth (the MMA inspired, jeans and t-shirt look) was meant to be a jumping on point for new readers. A soft reboot of the character, 4 years into his existence. Truth failed (alienating long term fans and not bringing in new ones), and shortly thereafter he was replaced with Pre-New 52 Supes to try to get back to a more traditional Superman.

If anything doomed New 52 Supes, it was the string of bad ideas coming from the Superman office.

[Atomic Man]

What doomed the New 52 and every character outside of Batman and the GL franchise was that, from what we've learned about the reboot, it was all extremely rushed. Johns has said that he was working on JL with Lee before Flashpoint but with the pre-Flashpoint versions. He's also said Flashpoint was never meant to be the initiator of a reboot.

The rumors I've read and heard are that the WB forced a full reboot on the DC editorial staff and they had to rush to make it happen. This is why the end of the post-Flashpoint continuity was so poorly (or in some cases, not at all) wrapped up. This also led to massive editorial issues, perhaps the most glaring of which was the complete lack of communication between Morrison, Perez, and the other Super Family creators.

Compare this to Crisis On Infinite Earths, a story that was in the works for years with an endgame of a complete reboot of the entire DCU. I don't care for that outcome and still think it was a mistake, but it was an edict handed down from WB that wasn't rushed in its execution. An example of the forethought that went into the post-COIE DCU is the tremendous editorial and creative cohesion of the Superman titles. Byrne and Wolfman were the chief architects of the character and his new status quo, and they were succeeded by people who shared the same vision (more or less) and together created a still-unprecedented continuous and high-quality sequence of regular stories that went on for over a decade. The problem with Superman specifically came with how those creators were replaced and the lack of vision of those new editors. Mike Carlin is an impossible act to follow. Loeb, meanwhile, had some good ideas, but he's the one that began pulling the wrong threads in the tapestry with Return to Krypton.

The New 52 was always doomed to failure because of how quickly it was put together. It could have worked almost as well as post-COIE did if there'd been a plan in place. That said, no full reboot is ever the solution for a creative entity that's been around for almost 100 years.

[Shriveling_memo]

There was a massive problem with superman in general which got rectified in the beginning of the 52. He was no longer a sap, who batman could own with planning. It seemed like the were building to the love of Lois. An there was hope that we would trade some classic storylines again retold. We got sold the idea that he was going to be the main guy. Which was a lie.

In universe he's the guy, but we know it's batman and in key story lines he's always playing second fiddle. That trickles in from events in to his own comics.

Dc needs to decide, are they going to make this guy the number one guy in his universe. An not back down from that idea so others can shine. That's what doomed superman in the end

[GodofBoredom]

The Superman line was in a terrible shape prior to the reboot, New 52 Superman was seen as a breath of fresh air.

There were 3 major missteps:

- putting George Perez on Superman's #1, killing virtually all momentum. The contrast with Grant Morrison in quality was immense
- having him date Wonder Woman, and constantly undermined at every turn in comparison to her, to the point that she was sending him to the kitchen while she went off to fight crime
- having his identity exposed and then depowering him in a convoluted arc, in which the writers suffered no long term consequences since they literally killed him right after the conflict was solved

If they had:

- kept Grant Morrison for more than 16 issues of Action Comics
- had Greg Pak on Superman from the start
- kept his initial personality from action comics, but added wisdom
- kept him out of damaging and demeaning relationships
- not have Geoff Johns put his hands on him, in any way, either to pull powers out of his ass or irrevocably alter him

Things would have been much better.

[superduperman]

I am of the opinion that Geoff Johns just doesn't really like Superman all that much. His Secret Origin is probably, at least in my opinion, the worst origin he's ever had. It was a mess that tried to be everything to everyone and made no one happy. He's a good writer but it's obvious what characters he wants to be working on and which ones he doesn't. His first Justice League arc post reboot was good except for Superman who was just a wrecking ball to be thrown at the bad guys. And, in the case of Green Lantern and Batman, other heroes. Whatever else they do with Superdad from now on, I hope they throw out SO. The WW relationship definitely ran off a lot of old school fans who might otherwise have given the books a chance. I think one of the things that killed New 52 was the assumption that the status quo would eventually be restored. Which means even if he isn't with Lois now, he was headed in that direction. That didn't happen. Same thing with Green Arrow and Black Canary. In five years the two never even met each other. it was too different in a lot of people's minds.

I still believe Superman, at least, needed a fresh start. And a hard reboot was the way to go. Even if it meant starting all over from scratch on things like the marriage. The impression that I got from the books was that the Superman offices didn't like the reboot to begin with and went out of their way to either sabotage it or at least phone it in in terms of effort. Why try when you don't like that version of the character to begin with? And some of the things coming out of the DC offices since Rebirth started seem to suggest this is true. They really do sound glad to be rid of him. This whole thing sounds like it was Didio's plan and he just had to drag everyone else along kicking and screaming the whole way.

[Adekis]

No, not from the start. Superman wasn't doomed until DC decided to kill him off, that's the simple truth of it. If after Truth (a brilliant and underrated deconstruction) DC had just gone ahead and said "hey everyone, just do some upbeat stories for a while, model it all after Morrison's Gold Standard!" then they'd have done that and built up goodwill with the audience, bringing in new readers the way they did when Morrison wrote the book himself. Hell, it doesn't even need to be actually upbeat, it just needs to seem upbeat. Remember how at the beginning of Pak's Action run everyone seemed to love it despite the fact that Superman was winning Pyrrhic victory after Pyrrhic victory (just like in Truth!) because Superman's characterization was spot on (just like in Truth!) and his powers and costume looked good and he was having fantastical adventures? Yeah. DC's powers that be could have enforced that- let's call it aesthetic- and this Superman would have gone on for another twenty years. The only reason he was "doomed" is that DC didn't put their trust in the character.

And I really wanted to put about twenty percent more swears in this post to emphasize how strongly I feel about this.

[GodofBoredom]

I am of the opinion that Geoff Johns just doesn't really like Superman all that much. His Secret Origin is probably, at least in my opinion, the worst origin he's ever had. It was a mess that tried to be everything to everyone and made no one happy. He's a good writer but it's obvious what characters he wants to be working on and which ones he doesn't. His first Justice League arc post reboot was good except for Superman who was just a wrecking ball to be thrown at the bad guys. And, in the case of Green Lantern and Batman, other heroes. Whatever else they do with Superdad from now on, I hope they throw out SO. The WW relationship definitely ran off a lot of old school fans who might otherwise have given the books a chance. I think one of the things that killed New 52 was the assumption that the status quo would eventually be restored. Which means even if he isn't with Lois now, he was headed in that direction. That didn't happen. Same thing with Green Arrow and Black Canary. In five years the two never even met each other. it was too different in a lot of people's minds.

I still believe Superman, at least, needed a fresh start. And a hard reboot was the way to go. Even if it meant starting all over from scratch on things like the marriage. The impression that I got from the books was that the Superman offices didn't like the reboot to begin with and went out of their way to either sabotage it or at least phone it in in terms of effort. Why try when you don't like that version of the character to begin with? And some of the things coming out of the DC offices since Rebirth started seem to suggest this is true. They really do sound glad to be rid of him. This whole thing sounds like it was Didio's plan and he just had to drag everyone else along kicking and screaming the whole way.

I'm of the same opinion. I also find it highly hypocritical how Geoff Johns came out to slam the New 52 now that Rebirth was out, when in fact he was one of the main architects of what the New 52 itself. Does he really think comic book readers have that much of a short term memory?

[manofsteel1979]

I'm of the same opinion. I also find it highly hypocritical how Geoff Johns came out to slam the New 52 now that Rebirth was out, when in fact he was one of the main architects of what the New 52 itself. Does he really think comic book readers have that much of a short term memory?

I think Geoff had to be dragged kicking and screaming to go along with the reboot, as it undid a lot of his work aside from GL. I think Morrison was too. They probably struck deals to ensure their ongoing runs of GL and Batman wasn't going to be interrupted, which kept those from being rebooted. I strongly believe if DC didn't give those books a pass, I think they would have left, and that would have been a PR disaster of epic proportions. That itself would have doomed the New 52.

[Prime]

it wasn't doomed but it did start by putting Perez into the Superman title and not giving him free reign. I would have just waited for Morrison to end his first Action arc and the launch the Superman title with new blood. The crossovers pretty much were bother problem here. Constant crossover killed the world building Morrison was laying out and it didn't let the characters get a little character development which was needed. WW/Superman thing had plenty of potential but DC is full of dumb people and killed it before anything interesting could have happened. Was there really a need for stories like Truth and Doomed?

[Sacred Knight]

Some stuff was. Because some stuff was just bad and and became worse and worse as time went on that it just became unsalvageable. Teen Titans for instance. But Superman, not at all. Even Truth didn't leave things in that bad a spot because most things resovled itself fine. The only remaining kink was the identity being outed, and its not like magic hasn't' fixed stuff like that before. Superman was fine. They decided to go in a different direction because of their internal preference. Which is fine, as since sales were rather similar there's no need to really justify switching, as opposed to a situation where sales were through the roof or something. But it certainly had nothing to do with the concept being doomed and needing to fix things post-haste.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

In the sense that it was a reboot, no. Sales started strong, people were eager to give the books a chance. In the sense that editorial were making a lot of bad decisions, yes. It was rushed and poorly planned.

Had DC and WB taken time with the reboot, giving the Post-Crisis a proper send-off, letting Johns finish his Green Lantern run and Morrison his Batman run before the reboot, and not pushed away so much talent, things would have been a lot better.

[manofsteel1979]

I think the moment Nuperman was doomed was when Grant left. I've gotta say though that doing everything to antagonize the fan base of the previous version instead of trying to bring them in didn't do any favors to his longevity. Good will goes a long way . It's the only thing that saved Pre FLASHPOINT Superman for as long as he was around.

[Truman Burbank]

It wasn't necessarily doomed from the start, but it was so badly planned and mishandled that it was always going to have problems. It was obvious that it wasn't an actual creative choice, but a sales gimmick.

I mean, you've got Dan DiDio and Jim Lee saying "we have to renumber our high-number series or people won't take the reboot seriously," while at the same time not completely rebooting two of the six biggest characters.