Was New 52 doomed from the start?

[manofsteel1979]

Sales were in shaky ground before DC You, remenber the first storyarc that Pak did in Action and that all of us liked.
This are his sales
Decemer 2013: 37.489
January 2014: 36.042
February 2014: 35.305
March 2014: 34.231
April 2014: 37.809
Those are worst than the numbers of Action before the reboot and not much better than the ones on Pre-New 52 Superman. Doomed manage to spikes sales up to the 40k area and Johns did the same (with better results) on the Superman title that was in a similar state of sales. So, the problems didn't started with DC you.

B...But Nuperman was selling gangbusters! He was bringing in legions and legions of new readers and fans until the demonic duo of Satan's sons Dan Jurgens and Geoff Johns conspired to ruin him with their brilliant evil plan to replace Superman with a 10 year old kid! I mean, that's what I was told on the CBR message boards! It MUST BE TRUE! LIAR!!! You are just an old fogie who hates change!! Stop talking down the REAL SUPERMAN to prop up the selfish imposter and his horrible wife and bratty cousin Oliver kid! Superwonder forever!!!










( Yes...I was just kidding.)
Seriously, sales numbers weren't horrible then, but they certainly weren't that great. To pretend otherwise is just rewriting history. Doesn't necessarily justify the process DC chose with killing Nuperman and swapping him, but to say all was well is just willfully rewriting history and ignoring facts. Pre FLASHPOINT Superman had anemic sales, and after a year or so of a sales spike, so was Nuperman. The jury is still out on Rebirth. We won't really know how well things truly are until next June and the year to year sales comparisons.

[TheCape]

You caught me, all this was part of my master plan called "90s nostalgia", it suceed at last . Nobody can stop me now

Also, i know that you were kidding, but i always laught everytime that people call me an "old foggie that hates change", because barely in my 20s, i'm probably younger that most people here

About the sales, to be fair, i don't know how well he was doing on the digital market, but i hear that wasn't impresive. For what is worht, i doubt that Superdad would fare much better than Nuperman

[manofsteel1979]

You caught me, all this was part of my master plan called "90s nostalgia", it suceed at last . Nobody can stop me now

Also, i know that you were kidding, but i always laught everytime that people call me an "old foggie that hates change", because barely in my 20s, i'm probably younger that most people here

About the sales, to be fair, i don't know how well he was doing on the digital market, but i hear that wasn't impresive. For what is worth i doubt that Superdad would fare much better than Nuperman

I'm 37...So I am an old foggie now. :P

Oh and I agree. Superman sales overall over the last decade or so hasn't been anything to write home about. We've seen spikes to be sure, but Superman sales have been anemic for at least 10 years now. Probably more. They are solid now, yes, but we've seen spikes before. ( New 52 anyone?). The problem is not any version of the character. The problem is much bigger than that, and constantly rebooting him or pulling stunts isn't gonna fix things. It starts at DC. And their editorial staff and Warner's.

[TheCape]

I'm 37...So I am an old foggie now. :P

Oh and I agree. Superman sales overall over the last decade or so hasn't been anything to write home about. We've seen spikes to be sure, but Superman sales have been anemic for at least 10 years now. Probably more. They are solid now, yes, but we've seen spikes before. ( New 52 anyone?). The problem is not any version of the character. The problem is much bigger than that, and constantly rebooting him or pulling stunts isn't gonna fix things. It starts at DC. And their editorial staff and Warner's.

For me, yes . This whole thing about young and old is quite ridiculous to be honest, that Nuperman was young didn't factored that much on his sucess, after Morrison's origin Unchained and Men of Tomorrow were his biggest hits sales wise, and those basically were Pre-Flashpoint storylines with New 52 paint

About sales, i have an slight hope that it would stay strong, because i have never seem that much love for an "in continuity" Superman in quite a while, but i'm not holding my breath, i'm just enjoying the ride as it last, that's what everyone can do to be honest. Those shaky number are the reason for the unstable direction of the last decade too, DC is kind of desperate.

[rui no onna]

Oh and I agree. Superman sales overall over the last decade or so hasn't been anything to write home about. We've seen spikes to be sure, but Superman sales have been anemic for at least 10 years now. Probably more. They are solid now, yes, but we've seen spikes before. ( New 52 anyone?). The problem is not any version of the character. The problem is much bigger than that, and constantly rebooting him or pulling stunts isn't gonna fix things. It starts at DC. And their editorial staff and Warner's.

In my early 30s and new superhero comic reader here. I only read manga prior to last year.

It probably helps that Marvel comics are kinda a mess right now, too. Had a 90% Marvel pull list when I started last September (10% was Image, no DC). Then I got hooked on Rebirth via comiXology Black Friday/Cyber Monday sales (specifically Superman, AC to kinda keep up, and Teen Titans). With Marvel dropping digital copies, that gave me the impetus to drop 75% of Marvel pulls and try more indies and DC.

Here's an interesting chart from Comichron. For reference, as of December 2016, DC is at around 2.9 million unit sales for titles in the Top 300.

http://www.comichron.com/vitalstatistics/alltime.html

[Agent Z]

The Superman line was in a terrible shape prior to the reboot, New 52 Superman was seen as a breath of fresh air.

There were 3 major missteps:

- putting George Perez on Superman's #1, killing virtually all momentum. The contrast with Grant Morrison in quality was immense
- having him date Wonder Woman, and constantly undermined at every turn in comparison to her, to the point that she was sending him to the kitchen while she went off to fight crime
- having his identity exposed and then depowering him in a convoluted arc, in which the writers suffered no long term consequences since they literally killed him right after the conflict was solved

If they had:

- kept Grant Morrison for more than 16 issues of Action Comics
- had Greg Pak on Superman from the start
- kept his initial personality from action comics, but added wisdom
- kept him out of damaging and demeaning relationships
- not have Geoff Johns put his hands on him, in any way, either to pull powers out of his ass or irrevocably alter him

Things would have been much better.

Supermsn was not undermined in the relationship. It was the other way around

[Sacred Knight]

It was neither. Neither was ever undermined, it was always in the head of one side of the fanbase. The only thing they did wrong was utilize more of Superman's rogue's gallery over Diana's. But she herself was never undermined. And again, neither was Superman.

And George Perez wasn't a misstep. Hindering his progress by not keeping him informed over what the plans were for he new origin, that's what the misstep was in his regard. He had some interesting ideas, especially with Lois and Clark.

[adrikito]

Bad writing and a certain horrific armor doomed the New 52.

If it is an answer to me.. I never had problems with the armor.. I see that armor modern.

[Tra-EL]

I can only speak from my own experience. For me, I was all for the reboot and the New52 universe and just wanted coherent and creative stories that allowed us to jump on and hit the ground running with a completely new Superman we could have eventually embraced. Morrison's run started off strong. The beats of his stories were fresh but at the same time, a throwback to what we loved about the Golden Age character. Morrison had all the wacky and grandeur elements the Super-books needed and it was a shot in the arm for awhile. It was all for nothing though once Perez was put on Superman. That book was bad. 90's cheese-bad and suddenly, the two Superman books, let alone the timeline, were already worlds apart to where it felt like we were reading different Supermen and their stories. That was the last thing we needed.

Instead of having cohesion, here we had a fresh young Superman in the Action book and then a conservative Superman arc from a legend in the Superman book that felt like a lost 1990's arc with a confusing timeline set in place that never took shape thereafter. It only got worse once Morrison left. Andy Diggle lasted one issue and the Super-books wasted no time into going straight into cross-over territory. In a nutshell, things got worse and I felt like I never had the true chance at getting to know the New52 Superman. What was it? 5 years worth of the New52 books and all I can remember is basically nothing but stale crossover stories that virtually ended up going nowhere and a Superman that never felt fully fleshed out. As a reader, when things are that much of a mess to where you need to drop books, sadly, I felt like I never even got to know the New52 Superman so I wasn't attached to him as many were here but that doesn't mean I wasn't bummed that he never had a fair chance to make his mark in the lore.

[Jon Clark]

I can only speak from my own experience. For me, I was all for the reboot and the New52 universe and just wanted coherent and creative stories that allowed us to jump on and hit the ground running with a completely new Superman we could have eventually embraced. Morrison's run started off strong. The beats of his stories were fresh but at the same time, a throwback to what we loved about the Golden Age character. Morrison had all the wacky and grandeur elements the Super-books needed and it was a shot in the arm for awhile. It was all for nothing though once Perez was put on Superman. That book was bad. 90's cheese-bad and suddenly, the two Superman books, let alone the timeline, were already worlds apart to where it felt like we were reading different Supermen and their stories. That was the last thing we needed.

Instead of having cohesion, here we had a fresh young Superman in the Action book and then a conservative Superman arc from a legend in the Superman book that felt like a lost 1990's arc with a confusing timeline set in place that never took shape thereafter. It only got worse once Morrison left. Andy Diggle lasted one issue and the Super-books wasted no time into going straight into cross-over territory. In a nutshell, things got worse and I felt like I never had the true chance at getting to know the New52 Superman. What was it? 5 years worth of the New52 books and all I can remember is basically nothing but stale crossover stories that virtually ended up going nowhere and a Superman that never felt fully fleshed out. As a reader, when things are that much of a mess to where you need to drop books, sadly, I felt like I never even got to know the New52 Superman so I wasn't attached to him as many were here but that doesn't mean I wasn't bummed that he never had a fair chance to make his mark in the lore.

I feel the same way. I think the main problem with the New 52 for Superman was that there was little organic growth. The longer arcs, crossovers, and events meant that excluding Morrison we only saw a very brief part of Superman's life. There was a 5-year hole where stuff happened, but we never really saw what. And I don't think any of the writers had ideas about those five years either. Was Luthor an acknowledged criminal who was locked in a self designed prison or a respectable businessman who only Superman knew had criminal endeavors? Had Lois and Clark/Superman ever had a romantic relationship or was it a case of both "friend-zoning" the other early on with an undercurrent of romantic tension?

[DochaDocha]

I guess I would say yes in the regard that I never really felt that editorial was going to stick to the ideas for the long term.

And as others have said in this thread, a lot of the problems prior to New 52 ended up carrying over to New 52. Perez and Morrison weren't on the same page, and likely Johns wasn't, either. Top creators don't have long term plans for Superman, whereas they might do 5+ year runs with other characters such as Batman or Green Lantern. Add all these together, plus a new costume, a relationship with WW, etc., and I was just waiting for the support beams to collapse.

For the record, I liked New 52. I just didn't imagine it would last, though I thought it would last longer than five years.

[Minerboh]

If it is an answer to me.. I never had problems with the armor.. I see that armor modern.

Tell that to the majority of the world.

[adrikito]

Tell that to the majority of the world.

The majority of the world LOVE Superdad.. I know.

Is not necessary to be so unpleasant..

[Atomic Man]

Tell that to the majority of the world.

The majority of the world doesn't care about Superman comics, much less knew anything about Superman wearing a crappy 90s suit.

It's a shame, but it's the truth. People constantly bash Superman for being irrelevant, but the problem is that DC has done its damnedest to make his books second to Batman's and they went so far as to turn him into Batman Lite in his first new movie in over 30 years. The armor was never the problem, though I agree that it certainly was awful.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

The majority of the world doesn't care about Superman comics, much less knew anything about Superman wearing a crappy 90s suit.

It's a shame, but it's the truth. People constantly bash Superman for being irrelevant, but the problem is that DC has done its damnedest to make his books second to Batman's and they went so far as to turn him into Batman Lite in his first new movie in over 30 years. The armor was never the problem, though I agree that it certainly was awful.

Superman Returns? If so, I didn't get that vibe (not that I got it from Superman in MOS, either).