Should We Consider Superdad A New Version of Superman?

[Ascended]

Pretty much feel the same as Ascended. He's not an entirely different make, but he's another model.

And really, isnt that how it should be?

I dont like drawing lines in the sand and saying "Everything before 1986 never happened!" or "Everything before 2011, except the details we tell you about, never happened!"

Rebooting history is never a good idea. It complicates continuity, pisses off older fans, and causes problems that never go away no matter how many Zero Hours you have. I much prefer the mentality that you go all in, utilize everything at your disposal you want, ignore what you dont, and dont become so cemented to the past you cant move forward. A retcon and tweak here and there is to be expected, and generally doesnt amount to much in the wider narrative. Marvel's managed to keep their history in more or less working order like that, whereas us Super-fans are still arguing about post-Crisis thirty years after the fact, and a lot of us even came in during the late 80's, early 90's, when post-Crisis was at its Super-best.

Whether you call the current version a new one or not, to me he feels like a natural evolution of what came before. And not just post-Crisis; I can see the pre-Crisis guy becoming this Superdad too. He's still got enough pre-Crisis in him to make me believe that there was a time in his life when he enjoyed pranking Lois and making her run in circles trying to prove who Superman was, or that as a kid he had such wild adventures in the future everything he comes at now is just "Well, this is another Monday" and that's (partially) where his seemingly unshakable confidence comes from. And I can even see this being the same guy who, in his youth, threw gangsters off roof tops and basically said "Treat people right, Metropolis, or get a visit from me!" as a noble-hearted social crusader.

[DragonPiece]

Honestly, I get why by all definitions he should just be considered post crisis Superman, but he's simply not in my eyes. The dynamic this Superman has is different from almost every issue during those days simply because he has a kid. You can tell all of his actions are thought upon differently and there always feels like there is more at stake with these stories now. My take on if it's a new version is measured on if you can see post crisis Superman doing the same things superdad does in some of these stories, and I don't think he would. While obviously the closest times were during the married years, but even then, he didn't have the weight of his own child back then.

[plasticman101]

I'd say he's whatever you want him to be!~ .DC pretty much brought back all aspects of his stories> they BLENDED silver age, and 1986 continuity, and (the good stuff) of n52 continuity, so all of it matters, it's sole reason that they got rid of crisis and in convergence!

I never thought 10 years this, 5 years that happened.. this fits in here, DC did what they did so I wouldn't have to worry about continuity.

[manofsteel1979]

And really, isnt that how it should be?

I dont like drawing lines in the sand and saying "Everything before 1986 never happened!" or "Everything before 2011, except the details we tell you about, never happened!"

Rebooting history is never a good idea. It complicates continuity, pisses off older fans, and causes problems that never go away no matter how many Zero Hours you have. I much prefer the mentality that you go all in, utilize everything at your disposal you want, ignore what you dont, and dont become so cemented to the past you cant move forward. A retcon and tweak here and there is to be expected, and generally doesnt amount to much in the wider narrative. Marvel's managed to keep their history in more or less working order like that, whereas us Super-fans are still arguing about post-Crisis thirty years after the fact, and a lot of us even came in during the late 80's, early 90's, when post-Crisis was at its Super-best.

Whether you call the current version a new one or not, to me he feels like a natural evolution of what came before. And not just post-Crisis; I can see the pre-Crisis guy becoming this Superdad too. He's still got enough pre-Crisis in him to make me believe that there was a time in his life when he enjoyed pranking Lois and making her run in circles trying to prove who Superman was, or that as a kid he had such wild adventures in the future everything he comes at now is just "Well, this is another Monday" and that's (partially) where his seemingly unshakable confidence comes from. And I can even see this being the same guy who, in his youth, threw gangsters off roof tops and basically said "Treat people right, Metropolis, or get a visit from me!" as a noble-hearted social crusader.

This. Every damn word.

[manofsteel1979]

As for the is he a new version question...I honestly right now consider him PostFlashpoint 2.0. Nuperman's history was so ill defined that truth be known, much of his Post crisis and Pre Crisis adventures could have occurred in a truncated way in the 5 year timeline, but I don't think anyone ever knew anything. I actually just see this guy as a clarification of that history, with his marriage to Lois restored and Jon added into the mix. After all it seems he still had most of his Nuperman adventures and wore that suit. So he's just a revision of that version imo.

[Ascended]

As for the is he a new version question...I honestly right now consider him PostFlashpoint 2.0. Nuperman's history was so ill defined that truth be known, much of his Post crisis and Pre Crisis adventures could have occurred in a truncated way in the 5 year timeline, but I don't think anyone ever knew anything. I actually just see this guy as a clarification of that history, with his marriage to Lois restored and Jon added into the mix. After all it seems he still had most of his Nuperman adventures and wore that suit. So he's just a revision of that version imo.

That's a good point.

It's sort of funny, because DC tried a "it all matters" approach post-IC and even though I really loved all the pre-Crisis things they put back in place, I didn't really care for the end result and it never felt organic to me.

But with Superdad, they're basically doing the same sort of thing and I am loving it.

I think it comes down to how they're handling the character in the present. Post-IC, he was still written as the post-Crisis Superman in terms of personality (with the caveat that the Clark disguise was back in effect), even though a huge chunk of his history had changed. It didnt mesh. Superdad however, is channeling enough non-1986 personality traits that it all feels.....right.

DC, I know you like to give Superman a really strong creative run for a year or two and then flush it all down the drain for 5-10 years, but do us a favor for once, and don't try to fix what isnt broken. This Superman works, exactly as he is. Don't f**k with it.

[DragonPiece]

That's a good point.

It's sort of funny, because DC tried a "it all matters" approach post-IC and even though I really loved all the pre-Crisis things they put back in place, I didn't really care for the end result and it never felt organic to me.

But with Superdad, they're basically doing the same sort of thing and I am loving it.

I think it comes down to how they're handling the character in the present. Post-IC, he was still written as the post-Crisis Superman in terms of personality (with the caveat that the Clark disguise was back in effect), even though a huge chunk of his history had changed. It didnt mesh. Superdad however, is channeling enough non-1986 personality traits that it all feels.....right.

DC, I know you like to give Superman a really strong creative run for a year or two and then flush it all down the drain for 5-10 years, but do us a favor for once, and don't try to fix what isnt broken. This Superman works, exactly as he is. Don't f**k with it.

It'll be interesting to see how Tomasi and Gleason handle Superman once he's out of Hamilton and back in Metropolis.

[Ascended]

It'll be interesting to see how Tomasi and Gleason handle Superman once he's out of Hamilton and back in Metropolis.

I am amazed at how much I'll miss the farm. Honestly, I sort of feel like this is DC screwing with things that don't need to be fixed already.

[DragonPiece]

I am amazed at how much I'll miss the farm. Honestly, I sort of feel like this is DC screwing with things that don't need to be fixed already.

I'll miss it too. Though I think they are gonna use the ice fortress more now as a place for Jon to relax and test his powers, especially after the scene in Supergirl showing there is a train in the fortress now.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

They basically just added New 52 adventures onto Pre-Flashpoint Superman's life and a lot of his N52 adventures will necessarily have to have been rewritten to the extent that they only occurred in the vaguest sense or not at all. For example, I doubt that Truth still happened and Lois outed Superman. The Morrison origin likewise seems definitively out as well as T-shirts and jeans Nuperman. The only thing from the N52 that seems definitively in is his fight with Ulysses.

[DragonPiece]

They basically just added New 52 adventures onto Pre-Flashpoint Superman's life and a lot of his N52 adventures will necessarily have to have been rewritten to the extent that they only occurred in the vaguest sense or not at all. For example, I doubt that Truth still happened and Lois outed Superman. The Morrison origin likewise seems definitively out as well as T-shirts and jeans Nuperman. The only thing from the N52 that seems definitively in is his fight with Ulysses.

False. New Super-Man's Reborn Aftermath refrenced the 2015 FCBD story which was the beginning of the Truth storyline. Ma and Pa kent dying on Clark's prom night happened in Morrison's story so at least some of that story is in continuity. Plus based on what we know, Clark's only interractions with Kara in continuity are his new 52 storylines based on what we know.

[Ascended]

He's right that Clark's Morrison origin is out. The Kents still died but the t-shirt era seems completely gone.

Truth happened in some form, but I dont think we know any details about how, or if Lois revealed Clark's identity (odds are she didnt, but that was a small part of the story anyway).

So we have Johns' New52 run (Ulysses), we know the Jim Lee armor was a thing, we know the Kents died in similar circumstances to Morrison. Xa-Du is still around and Lana is still Superwoman, so we know that at least parts of Pak and Morrison's runs survived the continuity re-write.

Best thing about this right now is that its so vague almost anything could fit in somewhere. Maybe before his public debut saving Lois, Clark wore a t-shirt proto costume and spent a few weeks/months saving lives in Suicide Slum as an urban myth. Far as I know nothing contradicts that. And I think its best if DC keeps it this way. As long as Superman is written in a way that the spirit of all eras and versions can be seen reflected through the character's presentation and personality, it wont matter whether a previous story is "officially" canon. If I want to believe that before Clark got serious with Lois, he struggled with the two sides of himself and "Superman" got more attention than "Clark" I can insert a big chunk of the Silver Age into this current model. If I dont want to insert that, I dont have to.

That's probably as good as it'll get. As long as DC has Superman informed by previous versions, they dont have to worry about the exact events in his life; fans will ignore or insert what they want as long as they have precedence for it.

[DragonPiece]

He's right that Clark's Morrison origin is out. The Kents still died but the t-shirt era seems completely gone.

Truth happened in some form, but I dont think we know any details about how, or if Lois revealed Clark's identity (odds are she didnt, but that was a small part of the story anyway).

So we have Johns' New52 run (Ulysses), we know the Jim Lee armor was a thing, we know the Kents died in similar circumstances to Morrison. Xa-Du is still around and Lana is still Superwoman, so we know that at least parts of Pak and Morrison's runs survived the continuity re-write.

Best thing about this right now is that its so vague almost anything could fit in somewhere. Maybe before his public debut saving Lois, Clark wore a t-shirt proto costume and spent a few weeks/months saving lives in Suicide Slum as an urban myth. Far as I know nothing contradicts that. And I think its best if DC keeps it this way. As long as Superman is written in a way that the spirit of all eras and versions can be seen reflected through the character's presentation and personality, it wont matter whether a previous story is "officially" canon. If I want to believe that before Clark got serious with Lois, he struggled with the two sides of himself and "Superman" got more attention than "Clark" I can insert a big chunk of the Silver Age into this current model. If I dont want to insert that, I dont have to.

That's probably as good as it'll get. As long as DC has Superman informed by previous versions, they dont have to worry about the exact events in his life; fans will ignore or insert what they want as long as they have precedence for it.

Honestly Jurgen's Twitter comments about how it was impossible to fit everything into two issues makes me believe it's possible the t-shirt and jeans could make a appearance. Things may go very different about why he wore them, but I don't think we should assume they never appeared in continuity.

And I realize most of the Morrison run is out, but the only time we saw Clark's parents die on his prom night in continuity was in his run as well as the new 52 origins book, so by definition, that run is still important and in continuity in the thick of things as much as how lois an clark mini series is important even though the events aren't entirely in continuity.

I know I'm grasping at straws, but this makes sense somewhat in my head.

[DCJdog]

And really, isnt that how it should be?

I dont like drawing lines in the sand and saying "Everything before 1986 never happened!" or "Everything before 2011, except the details we tell you about, never happened!"

Rebooting history is never a good idea. It complicates continuity, pisses off older fans, and causes problems that never go away no matter how many Zero Hours you have. I much prefer the mentality that you go all in, utilize everything at your disposal you want, ignore what you dont, and dont become so cemented to the past you cant move forward. A retcon and tweak here and there is to be expected, and generally doesnt amount to much in the wider narrative. Marvel's managed to keep their history in more or less working order like that, whereas us Super-fans are still arguing about post-Crisis thirty years after the fact, and a lot of us even came in during the late 80's, early 90's, when post-Crisis was at its Super-best.

Whether you call the current version a new one or not, to me he feels like a natural evolution of what came before. And not just post-Crisis; I can see the pre-Crisis guy becoming this Superdad too. He's still got enough pre-Crisis in him to make me believe that there was a time in his life when he enjoyed pranking Lois and making her run in circles trying to prove who Superman was, or that as a kid he had such wild adventures in the future everything he comes at now is just "Well, this is another Monday" and that's (partially) where his seemingly unshakable confidence comes from. And I can even see this being the same guy who, in his youth, threw gangsters off roof tops and basically said "Treat people right, Metropolis, or get a visit from me!" as a noble-hearted social crusader.

Yep. I couldn't have said it better. D.C. has surely learned by now to stop with the trying to fix their continuity.

As for the Superman question: is the Reborn Superman a new character, I would say both yes and no. On the no side, he is basically the merger of two different "lives of Superman." There was the Superman who lived before Flash Point and then the one who lived after it. Flashpoint should have erased the old PreFP one but it somehow didn't. Instead, he was split somehow. And so, no, he is not new. He is the same old PreFP Superman but reunited. However, when he was divided, the two divisions (Red and Blue) lived different lives. One carried on his preFP memories and had a kid with Lois. The other was Nuperman. Now, they are back together in one body again and so, yes, he is a new character now.

I guess we can call this new Superman Schitzo-Superman since he has dual personalities in one body. I would think that such a merger would make a person insane. But hey, this is the funny books. Roll with and enjoy the stories . . . the good stories anyways.

[Ascended]

I know I'm grasping at straws, but this makes sense somewhat in my head.

As a pre-Crisis fan, I get it. This Superman is very much a post-Crisis construct, and I knew he would be (didnt we all?). But I was hoping there'd be enough pre-Crisis/New52 in him to satisfy me, and so far I feel like there is. I have to squint my eyes a bit and maybe lie to myself a little, but only a little.

I like this new "inclusive" approach, instead of DC telling us that years of stories that have informed our perception of the property no longer apply.