If Norman Osborn is back, then why can't Marvel bring back Gwen Stacy?

[AngelJD]

I like your post.

How do you feel about the revisions over the years impacting the original story?

Think a lot of the why can't they bring her back comes from Marvel claiming it's a story of biblical proportions while strip-mining it until nothing is left but a dead girl from New York - and the easiest way to bring back a bystander is to not have them die in the first place

The way I see it with matters of the Marvel Afterlife, Mutants, Inhumans, and Magic there could be ways to have 616 Gwen Stacy to make an appearance without removing the fact that she died.

First off keeping her dead yet having her:
A comic book series about the Marvel Multiverse Afterlife (tons of cameos from dead Marvel Characters and establishing a few things such as all the souls of the Multiverse and maybe if the afterlife has jobs/tasks even)

Another can be: Peter or MJ meeting a: Magic User/Mutant/Inhuman/ect that can sense and summon spirits or spirit can enter inside shapeshifting that person to take physical form of that spirit. That Magic User/Mutant/Inhuman senses a spirit that seems to be following Peter and/or MJ around and seems to have a spiritual link between the two. Giving the ghost a visible appearance and sound to the living it's revealed to be ghost Gwen Stacy. She explains she has been watching over as an official guardian angel job she took in the afterlife.
Gwen Stacy covers the history of the Spider-man and MJ in the comics (giant size anniversary issue maybe) revealing she was there all this time fulfilling her duties as a angel to the two. There for their wedding, trying to fight off death from taking their child and failing, the highs and lows of the series, talk about how she sometimes took a vacation seeing how other Multiverse Peter, Gwens, and MJs were doing (other series Multiverse series) and also the many MANY clones of her.
Mentions how she has heard every word MJ and Peter has spoke about/to her ("I remember Gwen Stacy and Spider-Man: Blue) and her own feelings.
Mentions how she feels Peter might of been giving her too much credit in life as she did have flaws (as how Peter remembers her as a saint and Gwen doesn't recall herself as one). However despite her actual flaws and mistakes she made when she was living there was one thing that got her upset.
Then ghost Gwen can be the readers mouthpiece explaining/ranting about how she never f***ed the Goblin but reality it was all a giant ruse and mind screw against Peter. The Gwen that Osborn used was a very early (and was made to be used and tossed out) proto clone. Explaining the Miles Warren got tons of funding from Osborn all this time as Osborn was hoping of making a clone army that could always be replaced and limitless in numbers and Gwen was the test run subject in cloning and they tested the mental manipulation of the clones by forcing her just born clone to have consensual sex with Osborn which the real Gwen would be disgusted by. The clone however wouldn't lasted a year normally being very unstable and when she got unexpectedly pregnant reduced greatly her life expectancy. Held in a secret lab that first clone died while giving painful birth with a miracle she lasted that long. The matter of the Goblin DNA and clone DNA cause the two kids to have genetic problems. Miles was let fired from Osborn employment.
Then Gwen can slap Peter and maybe MJ for that really dumb deal she was shouting for them not to take (OMD).
Talk about Superior Spider-man and how Gwen knew Peter would be back as the afterlife never took his spirit but it remained in the body even if he was not in the 'driver's seat'.
Talk about the different and new people in his and MJs life. Talk about how when Peter became a successful CEO she decided that he would be fine without her presence as she was curious and a bit of a explorer to what new worlds was being created by Mr. Fantastic (Secret Wars). Her talking about a world she very much wished happened that she calls 'Renew Your Vows' and how she after watching Annie decided to make herself her new guardian angel...but that Multiverse dead Gwen already was her official godmother Guardian angel thus didn't need two.
She retuned to discover another Civil War that annoyed her seeing the heroes act so shamefully. After everything that happened Gwen felt Miles who was hurting after the Civil War 2 stuff (and questions Peter as to why he didn't support Miles when he need Peter support) need help more then Peter thus followed him for a bit. Doing so she found herself 'shipping' her alternate Spider-Gwen and Miles when they had a mission together. When she finally came back she was hoping to learn that MJ and Peter patched up. Instead she met some more dead clones telling her about the latest clone conspiracy and how Peter was now fighting Osborn once again.
Ghost Gwen breaking the fourth wall tell us that she knows due to Multiverse hopping that on some Earths the Earth '616' is seen as a comic to them (such as a certain other Gwen who wasn't a Stacy but a Poole coming from such a Earth). She, other dead Gwens of the Multiverse, and her 'sisters'/clones yearly go to such a Earth to watch a annual marathon of movies about another Earth called the MCU (plus gives respect to one Emma Stone that majority of Gwens loved playing another version of her... and one so happens to be her).


Then once agian using imagination if Gwen was brought back to the land of the living there are ways to resurrect her truly while still having her been killed.

Yeah, I think Gwen's death is pretty much one of the most defining moments of Spider-Man's mythology. I mean, if she came back for good, it would sort of ruin the memory of that story and the lessons that it taught Peter.

I feel the lessons would not be ruined. As for ruining the memory I also feel that would stay as it did happen thus part of the memory. However with knowledge of her actually returning (and it sticks) what it would impact the most likely would be that issue's ebay price value. Having been dead and impactful and shocking for it's time the issue's valued would still be extremely high but still a bit of a hit if 'the' 616 Gwen truly return from death.

A 'defining' death it was thus writers who attempted to truly resurrect her MUST have in turn a 'defining' impactful (for good reasons) resurrection (pulling that feat off will be very tough but nothing is impossible).

[Spidercide]

The death of Gwen Stacy is, to me, the greatest tragedy in comics. During the clone conspiracy, I was really expecting Gwen to be "resurrected" permanently. However, we know what happened. I noticed these statements by Spider-man in Clone Conspiracy 5: "Villains get to come back." And, about Gwen: "You deserved better than this, Gwen Stacy. Better than me."

Good people deserve to come back much more than bad people. Gwen was a good person. To me, it does not make sense to "tease us" since the 1st clone saga about Gwen Stacy being revived and then get rid of her. It's like repeating the tragedy over and over again. Peter was going to admit he felt Gwen was real before she died. You can tell they both desired to rekindle the love they had toward each other.

I hope when and if they do something like this again, that Gwen is permanently revived. This has already been done three times (3 clone sagas).

Okay so there are a few things to unpack there.

Firstly i absolutely didn't get the sense that Peter wanted to rekindle anything and even if he did that'd be creepy. At best Peter is at least 29 years old and Gwen is 20 biologically. Really when you do the math peter is over 30 and realistically should have moved on from the first girl he was in love with when he was a kid 10+ years ago and knew her for maybe a year and a half tops. It isn't a sweet tragic romance for Peter to still be so in love with Gwen he'd honestly consder restarting anything, it just makes him unhealthy. So even if the intention was that he wanted to rekindle something, that intention is at odds with a realistical healthy portrayal of the character.

It would also be at odds for Peter's character since he moved on from Gwen during the FIRST Clone Saga in 1975!

Third, I find it difficult to believe Gwen would be all that interested given peter's lying to her and his role in her death. Maybe they could be friends but romance is very questionable.

Now to address the issue of good people coming back vs bad people coming back.

Yeah int he real world bad people deserve to remain dead and good people don't deserve to die.

But there is a creative point of view to be considered.

Norman Osborn even in the Silver Age was a good character and a great villain. Supporting characters are important and should be good but making a good or great supporting character isn't half as difficult as making a great villain for the superhero in your superhero story. Good villains are worth their weight in gold and so you cannot afford to sacrifice them too lightly, vs supporting characters who can usually be more easily replaced (not always though).

Gwen's role as a supporting character was to be a love interest to peter. And it was a role she was incredibly ill suited for. She was never a good love interest and was only a decent character when Ditko was on the series, even then though she was a good character who was not suited to be Spider-Man's romantic match.

Compare and contrast her to her replacements in the form of Mary jane or Black Cat. They were egregiously better characters and love interests.

But no villain brought in to replace Norman could ever quite do it. Harry and Hobgoblin were awesome but Hobgoblin was botched during the time Norman came back and even then lacked the personal connection to Peter. Harry was also dead and had died in a brilliant story (one better frankly than the death of Gwen Stacy arc) and whilst things were very personal between him and Peter his role in that regard as a villain was compromized by virtue of him having a platonic love for Peter as his friend and an unwillingness to harm Peter's loved ones. Norman though never had such qualms and Gwen and Harry's deaths were a potent source of enmity between him and Peter. Norman could be villainous without restraint and raise the stakes in the story whilst Harry could not, hence his run as the Goblin was blindingly brilliant yet brief.

As for repeating the tragedy over and over again for Peter I agree...and it is why reviving Gwen in this was asinine.

[AngelJD]

Gwen's role as a supporting character was to be a love interest to peter. And it was a role she was incredibly ill suited for. She was never a good love interest and was only a decent character when Ditko was on the series, even then though she was a good character who was not suited to be Spider-Man's romantic match.

I'm going to have to disagree with this statement in my opinion. MJ was ill suited as well. Let's look at her. When we meet her she does have that memorable line and great first appearance reveal but that doesn't prove that she isn't ill suited.
A stand out part for me to why she wasn't the best during that time was: a villain (rhino I think) is attacking in the City and it's a dangerous scene... let's go there as that is cool! That's a great way of ill responsibility and a great way to die. Usually a person would stay away from danger instead of placing herself in it. Now later in the series it would be altered to appear that MJ was helping Peter all along (a good revision) but only taking information from MJ's first appearance to Gwen's death MJ wasn't acting smart.
Then she played around with the boys and was a party girl and danced all the time (which her extroverted personality help her gain fans but doesn't showcase why she would be any better then Gwen for Peter). Meanwhile Gwen and Peter was shown to have similar interests in the field of science.

Now that where positive things end for me for either one as sadly due to the culture and time period love interests didn't get much else in developments. Both were damsels in distress a couple of times. The artist or writer due to people liking MJ's party girl extrovert attitude then tried to make Gwen look more like MJ (a mistake I feel trying to copy vs making something fresh and special and later on in the Multiverse MJs and Gwens were given was to contrasted and play off of each other better).

But ultimately neither one grew much or at all during that time area.

MJ became a suit love interest and more importantly a much more developed character due to developments giving to her after Gwen's death helping that to be the catalyst to start MJ's character development. But a writer has to do/had to do that first. Gwen also while "ill suited" could in time by good writers been able to evolve possible into a good love interest or better yet into a superior character than her past self and develop in ways from great writing.

Now currently MJ is ill suited once agian due to her attitude towards Peter and how much she seems to quickly blame him (which I find annoying). But hopefully with devopments giving and a character journey of some form she can rise agian. If Gwen ever came back she might then also have then possibilites then allowed to happen if writtters can perform them with above and beyond writing.

But I do agree the age factor might have to be addess (technically both are adults even with the age difference but still).

[Vixx]

I'm going to have to disagree with this statement in my opinion. MJ was ill suited as well. Let's look at her. When we meet her she does have that memorable line and great first appearance reveal but that doesn't prove that she isn't ill suited.
A stand out part for me to why she wasn't the best during that time was: a villain (rhino I think) is attacking in the City and it's a dangerous scene... let's go there as that is cool! That's a great way of ill responsibility and a great way to die. Usually a person would stay away from danger instead of placing herself in it. Now later in the series it would be altered to appear that MJ was helping Peter all along (a good revision) but only taking information from MJ's first appearance to Gwen's death MJ wasn't acting smart.
Then she played around with the boys and was a party girl and danced all the time (which her extroverted personality help her gain fans but doesn't showcase why she would be any better then Gwen for Peter). Meanwhile Gwen and Peter was shown to have similar interests in the field of science.

Now that where positive things end for me for either one as sadly due to the culture and time period love interests didn't get much else in developments. Both were damsels in distress a couple of times. The artist or writer due to people liking MJ's party girl extrovert attitude then tried to make Gwen look more like MJ (a mistake I feel trying to copy vs making something fresh and special and later on in the Multiverse MJs and Gwens were given was to contrasted and play off of each other better).

But ultimately neither one grew much or at all during that time area.

MJ became a suit love interest and more importantly a much more developed character due to developments giving to her after Gwen's death helping that to be the catalyst to start MJ's character development. But a writer has to do/had to do that first. Gwen also while "ill suited" could in time by good writers been able to evolve possible into a good love interest or better yet into a superior character than her past self and develop in ways from great writing.

Now currently MJ is ill suited once agian due to her attitude towards Peter and how much she seems to quickly blame him (which I find annoying). But hopefully with devopments giving and a character journey of some form she can rise agian. If Gwen ever came back she might then also have then possibilites then allowed to happen if writtters can perform them with above and beyond writing.

But I do agree the age factor might have to be addess (technically both are adults even with the age difference but still).

Think the age factor is why most think she's better off never dying in the first place - plus itS better supported by details in the line before and after IMO

I used this arc as a team research project for some interns (panel by panel starting at 1 and ending at ...150?) and shared the raw results with Oz on another board... the results were very detailed, posted a while pack for fun ... It's definately possible to connect and provide alternate account of events and come up with a story; like in any comic book, but what to do with in today's book that makes it worthwhile...

Premise was along the whole cloning stuff didn't start at 143 - lot of work had to be done to get those results... So if she is the first , why her, when did it start and whose behind it ..and what happened to her.....

[Spidercide]

I'm going to have to disagree with this statement in my opinion. MJ was ill suited as well. Let's look at her. When we meet her she does have that memorable line and great first appearance reveal but that doesn't prove that she isn't ill suited.
A stand out part for me to why she wasn't the best during that time was: a villain (rhino I think) is attacking in the City and it's a dangerous scene... let's go there as that is cool! That's a great way of ill responsibility and a great way to die. Usually a person would stay away from danger instead of placing herself in it. Now later in the series it would be altered to appear that MJ was helping Peter all along (a good revision) but only taking information from MJ's first appearance to Gwen's death MJ wasn't acting smart.
Then she played around with the boys and was a party girl and danced all the time (which her extroverted personality help her gain fans but doesn't showcase why she would be any better then Gwen for Peter). Meanwhile Gwen and Peter was shown to have similar interests in the field of science.

Now that where positive things end for me for either one as sadly due to the culture and time period love interests didn't get much else in developments. Both were damsels in distress a couple of times. The artist or writer due to people liking MJ's party girl extrovert attitude then tried to make Gwen look more like MJ (a mistake I feel trying to copy vs making something fresh and special and later on in the Multiverse MJs and Gwens were given was to contrasted and play off of each other better).

But ultimately neither one grew much or at all during that time area.

MJ became a suit love interest and more importantly a much more developed character due to developments giving to her after Gwen's death helping that to be the catalyst to start MJ's character development. But a writer has to do/had to do that first. Gwen also while "ill suited" could in time by good writers been able to evolve possible into a good love interest or better yet into a superior character than her past self and develop in ways from great writing.

Now currently MJ is ill suited once agian due to her attitude towards Peter and how much she seems to quickly blame him (which I find annoying). But hopefully with devopments giving and a character journey of some form she can rise agian. If Gwen ever came back she might then also have then possibilites then allowed to happen if writtters can perform them with above and beyond writing.

But I do agree the age factor might have to be addess (technically both are adults even with the age difference but still).

Dude I was talking about MJ FOLLOWING Gwen’s death not before. She replaced gwen AFTER her death.


But even then neither Gwen nor MJ were realistically a good match for Peter in the Silver Age.



MJ was at the time seemingly too self-absorbed and uninterested in anything like a serious relationship, though her personality would’ve been a positive influence upon Peter since it balanced out his more serious personality (which we saw in their interactions following Gwen’s death, which is why I’m saying she was better).


Gwen for her part was interested in a serious relationship and…also liked science too or something. I guess that was the reason he was attracted to her *shrugs * . Seriously she is a science major but it’s brought up like twice and never beyond their first date do you see them bonding over a mutual love of science (not that that’d be that interesting to read about anyway). People act as though that was a big deal to her character or their relationship and it really wasn’t. You might as well say Peter and Harry were friends due to a mutual love of science because they were in the same class too.



But she was in need of looking after, which is something Peter just because of the life he leads can only do up to a point and a lot of the time he needs more support himself. So the people he’s close to by and large need to be tough as nails and Gwen was not like that at all. She cried at the drop of a hat, could become hysterical and even got concerned over Peter risking his life as a mere photographer.This is putting aside the stuff involving her Dad, her irrational hatred of Spider-Man, her beleiving the worst of him when he seemingly revealed himself as Spider-Man in ASM #87 and in all other respects being a silver age Marvel girlfriend. Which is to say a crappy character.


If you look at who Gwen was, her social standing, her personality and then compre it to Peter’s yes REALISTCIALLY it made comparatively more sense that he could have a long term relationship with her rather than mary jane. Note I said comprataively because when you really look at their relationship it wasn’t going to last if it had continued as it had done and she hadn’t died. But reaistically it stood a much better chance than if he’d tried to hook up with Mary Jane or if somehow MJ and he had gone steady (which is impossible since MJw asn’t going steady with anyone back then.)


However CREATIVLY Mary Jane was leagues above Gwen as a character in general and almost the antihesis of a Marvel silver age girlfriend. She was simply a more interesting and dynamic character than Gwen was. If you want proof of this other than you know…Stan Lee, John Romita Senior and plenty of readers of the time saying so, look at the Brainwasher storyline. The first part of that story gets rollin because Mary jane gets a job and then Gwen is invovled because her Dad is a victim of the Kingpin. Gwen is dragged into the plot as a passive player but MJ was in her capacity in the story much more dynamic and a go-getter. She simply had more life to her.


So creatively speaking MJ was still a much better characetr to pair Peter up with, if for no other reason than there was an attraction there in addition to different personalities which could provide potent conflict. I just don’t believe they’d have ever made anything long term work if she’d stayed the way she was back then.


But if you were goknna hinge the franchise on one romance MJ was the better bet.


At the same time you cannot make the case for gwen’s character on the grounds that hypothetically somebody could’ve made her good. Like…it took Betty Brant 30 years to become a non-ironically interesting supporting cast member. It took the Spot 30 years before someone used his powers properly.


For all we know Gwen might’ve become like Liz Allan and just disappeared.


Not to mention the fact that for Gwen to have been a good love interest you essentially would’ve had to overhaul her so extensively that she might as wel have been a different character altogether. At which point…just make a different character. Which is why its pointless to want to bring Gwen back, wuit eapart from the undoing of the greatest Spider-Man story ever, the second greatest tragedy of Peter’s life and the story from which whole eras of Spider-Man have hinged upon and the catalyst for his greatest relationship. All to bring back one characetr you’d have to write so utterly differently to be viable they might as well not be the characetr and we could’ve just left gwen dead. Hell, Gwen’s CLONES have been more interesting than her and they are still alive so why do we need to bring back the actual Gwen at all? Esepcially when we have Spider-Gwen in multiple books.



Currently MJ is ill suited but that’s like…hereditarily out of character so no one should really count that.


You don’t need a journey to evenaddress that. Just have her wake up and act in characetr again, then find some explanation for why she wasn’t for the longest time.


This isn’t even addressing again how its creepy, sad and frankly realy pathetic and regressive for Peter to want to hook up with Gwen again. Like…he should be over her by now and he in fact got over her in 1975.

[Uncanny Mutie]

you've got spider-gwen. You've got clone gwen in cc. You had the joyce delany clone before that. A gwen clone in the 90's clone saga.

You had gwen as the focus in a big story in asm in sins past.

We've had modern backup stories about gwen, and entire miniseries devoted to gwen (sm: Blue).

We've had emma stone as gwen in two movies.

Gwen stacy has never really gone away. How about less gwen?

lol, right!!!!!

[Vixx]

lol, right!!!!!

/agree

But don't forget the customary dissolving Gwen, or rough draft Gwen clone. Peter must be leery of anything blond at this point.

But first reset the 616 version to about 150 levels and leave her alone first ...

Tired of them digging her up just to defecate on the corpse ... Leave Spideys lesson in tact, get him back with MJ, and execute the wonder twins at the gravesite while you are at it

Leave us our memories ... And if they even dream of some clone story, some Norman / twins like arc or bringing her back in a way that defiles the charector or lessons the impact on Peter ... You should wake up and apologize :P

Stop fucking with us lol

This book has a deep supporting cast ... But you wouldn't know it.. Reads like the Amaxing Gwen Clone (featuring Spiderman)

That Joyce stuff .. Forgot about that ... That was a weird bit of retcon, no?


Think my favorite is the "**** it - just shoot her with a rifle and never speak of it again" story ... Never mind a famous dead girls fingerprints have been popping up in this magical place called "Europe" for years

That staff meeting must have been something else

#nomoreclones #notmygwen lol

[AngelJD]

Vixx. I agree.

The moment the real title "Clone Conspiracy" came out everybody it feels saw the writing on the wall. Because it's been done before and the 616 spider history didn't look promising that something long term new and good might appear.
Plus it feels the Spider books can't do any clone type story justice. The only one close was found in the Ultimate Universe.

To see what could work let's look at the few clones that many people (well debatable as no character has a 100% likability factor) actually liked (for the most part):
Laura
Gabby (based on the reviews and forums posts people seem to like her)
Ultimate Jessica Drew (based on a recent forum topic hoping she lives)
and Ultimate Gwen Stacy (based on people's mention of which Gwen version they liked I found her popping up a good deal of times and she feels like the ONLY Gwen Stacy clone of the Multiverse to exist past a few issues and was used in the Spider-Man tales long term)
Earth-65 Falcon 16 has possibilities with Earth-65 Betty and having his own personality from what little seen of him thus far it feels,
and before this tale popped up Ben and Kaine.

Looking at possibly why they work out. In some form likable characters that can/did grow (always important), used efficiently in the tales for the most part, and them being clones isn't constantly stated (exception of Ben and Kaine a the spider books love to keep that info up there) and soon becomes an afterthought as the focus comes to them as a person then a clone. They are treated like a person by other characters. Like a life that matters. How they were born is not as important to what they do in life and the connections they make and bond with. They had a life to live.

That a huge problem I have with all the Clone stories found in the 616 Spider-Man series. I never got that feeling/vibe that the writer treats any new character who so happens to be born from science (aka 'a clone') as a person that is special or matters. That when they die nobody really grieves for them (outside of the Rhino based on the preview) and fast to forget. The significance of life itself and the matters of 'what makes a life' is never real put into the spotlight. They are discarded as story tools vs characters.

Howard the Duck series recently had clones who was treated with far more respect and importantly as characters! They were given a life, fathered, discovered by Howard, then Howard worked to saved them and was treated to matter. In the end they didn't die at the end of the tale. Howard the Duck series gave more respect and a more compelling tale then how I felt any clone story in the 616 Spider-man series gave thus far.
Who was that writer who wrote a actual clone story where the clone's live mattered and had a personality...Chip Zdarsky.
The writer who will be writing a Spider-man series already has a good/decent clone story over majority of others before writing a Spider-man series.


"Think my favorite is the "**** it - just shoot her with a rifle and never speak of it again" story
Prime example. I came into comics in late 2014 but was able to read may past comics or at least the history from various pages. When I read about that it baffled me to the necessity of that in the end. Did it have a purpose of some kind? Was it another 'just because the writers could'.


Well for the huge supporting cast I agree that many others should be used more. In fact a small break from the main big three spider interests (MJ, Gwen, and Black Cat) might be necessary right now (till a fantastic idea and developments can be done with them and worked out). MJ appears in Iron Man and has a multiverse main character version in Renew your vows (which I love), Gwen has a multiverse main character version in Spider-Gwen (which I love), and Black Cat doesn't have a Multiverse version starring main character (yet) but has been popping up in multiple titles (which I...the best present series using her was from Silk so far as Cindy tried to know more about her and convince her to go back into the hero side but failed).

There are some characters I would love to see agian. One such as the character Norah Winters who upon reading about her caught my interest. Between reading some old issues and how she was introduced with a nice 'establishing character' action of her licking Peter in part jest and to make a claim on him as her own cameraman which made me smile. The character who Peter convinced her in New York only for her to eventually still got the short end and fall in Superior broken hearted and her career she worked hard for gone. Then we never saw/heard from her again since.
Other characters I certain I don't know about but in the 700+ issues has been presented and ready to make a reappearance (provided a story is set and perfect for them to reappear).

Some new cast I do like (Anna) and some old cast I hope to see, and seeing how possible some new and old can mingle and form interactions possibly.

[Spidercide]

Vixx. I agree.

The moment the real title "Clone Conspiracy" came out everybody it feels saw the writing on the wall. Because it's been done before and the 616 spider history didn't look promising that something long term new and good might appear.
Plus it feels the Spider books can't do any clone type story justice. The only one close was found in the Ultimate Universe.

To see what could work let's look at the few clones that many people (well debatable as no character has a 100% likability factor) actually liked (for the most part):
Laura
Gabby (based on the reviews and forums posts people seem to like her)
Ultimate Jessica Drew (based on a recent forum topic hoping she lives)
and Ultimate Gwen Stacy (based on people's mention of which Gwen version they liked I found her popping up a good deal of times and she feels like the ONLY Gwen Stacy clone of the Multiverse to exist past a few issues and was used in the Spider-Man tales long term)
Earth-65 Falcon 16 has possibilities with Earth-65 Betty and having his own personality from what little seen of him thus far it feels,
and before this tale popped up Ben and Kaine.

Looking at possibly why they work out. In some form likable characters that can/did grow (always important), used efficiently in the tales for the most part, and them being clones isn't constantly stated (exception of Ben and Kaine a the spider books love to keep that info up there) and soon becomes an afterthought as the focus comes to them as a person then a clone. They are treated like a person by other characters. Like a life that matters. How they were born is not as important to what they do in life and the connections they make and bond with. They had a life to live.

That a huge problem I have with all the Clone stories found in the 616 Spider-Man series. I never got that feeling/vibe that the writer treats any new character who so happens to be born from science (aka 'a clone') as a person that is special or matters. That when they die nobody really grieves for them (outside of the Rhino based on the preview) and fast to forget. The significance of life itself and the matters of 'what makes a life' is never real put into the spotlight. They are discarded as story tools vs characters.

Howard the Duck series recently had clones who was treated with far more respect and importantly as characters! They were given a life, fathered, discovered by Howard, then Howard worked to saved them and was treated to matter. In the end they didn't die at the end of the tale. Howard the Duck series gave more respect and a more compelling tale then how I felt any clone story in the 616 Spider-man series gave thus far.
Who was that writer who wrote a actual clone story where the clone's live mattered and had a personality...Chip Zdarsky.
The writer who will be writing a Spider-man series already has a good/decent clone story over majority of others before writing a Spider-man series.


"Think my favorite is the "**** it - just shoot her with a rifle and never speak of it again" story
Prime example. I came into comics in late 2014 but was able to read may past comics or at least the history from various pages. When I read about that it baffled me to the necessity of that in the end. Did it have a purpose of some kind? Was it another 'just because the writers could'.


Well for the huge supporting cast I agree that many others should be used more. In fact a small break from the main big three spider interests (MJ, Gwen, and Black Cat) might be necessary right now (till a fantastic idea and developments can be done with them and worked out). MJ appears in Iron Man and has a multiverse main character version in Renew your vows (which I love), Gwen has a multiverse main character version in Spider-Gwen (which I love), and Black Cat doesn't have a Multiverse version starring main character (yet) but has been popping up in multiple titles (which I...the best present series using her was from Silk so far as Cindy tried to know more about her and convince her to go back into the hero side but failed).

There are some characters I would love to see agian. One such as the character Norah Winters who upon reading about her caught my interest. Between reading some old issues and how she was introduced with a nice 'establishing character' action of her licking Peter in part jest and to make a claim on him as her own cameraman which made me smile. The character who Peter convinced her in New York only for her to eventually still got the short end and fall in Superior broken hearted and her career she worked hard for gone. Then we never saw/heard from her again since.
Other characters I certain I don't know about but in the 700+ issues has been presented and ready to make a reappearance (provided a story is set and perfect for them to reappear).

Some new cast I do like (Anna) and some old cast I hope to see, and seeing how possible some new and old can mingle and form interactions possibly.

Excuse me but a lot of people love Kaine and pre-CC ben Reilly.

Also the 1970s Clone Saga was fine as was.