Post-September Post-Political Marvel

[whiterabbit]

I just don't recognise that criticism. I can only assume you just are not reading the book.

You have the internet, JK. Go goggle if Marvel has a liberalism, feminism, or pushed any kind of agenda in the past 5 years. There is a reason Marvel is pushing less politics after Secret Empire. Go check if Angela and Mockingbird had zero agenda's and how their sells are doing.

[CentralPower]

(Although I guess the Magnum in Dirty Harry had that too.)

Did the UK get "Sledgehammer"? (It was a parody of "Dirty Harry". It was to "vigilante cop" movies what "Airplane!" was to disaster movies.)

You want a fetishized gun? Oh, you have not seen a fetishized gun.

The disturbing development was the war parties that regularly were formed and went out on skirmishes. It was creepily very human. But one must take those doco's with a pinch of salt these days. False news comes in all sorts of packages. I'm not sure how the researches were able to insinuate into the chimp society, or, the bias of the editing to portray events the way they wanted them to look. But it sounds very authentic.

Chimps are very much like people, which is likely why some people dislike them so much. There are multiple documented examples of them engaging in war or just plain old recreational violence. (There are interesting studies of baboons as well.)

AoA happened in an alternate universe didn't it? Elaborate how this relates to Secret Wars destroying the whole Multiverse if you could please Mike?

Marvel wanted a reboot so they could streamline and modernize. They let Hickman blow everything up because it is more fun/profitable to do it that way than to just announce "everything is now streamlined and modernized".

[ImprobableQuestion]

Not that Jackolover has ever needed context for any of these threads, but what makes people think that Marvel will stop being political in the one year where it's more important than ever for media to be political?

[ViewtifulJC]

If you can name any work in any creative medium that isn't political in one way, I'll be impressed. Every single work of narrative fiction is pushing some kind of moral standard or agenda, whether it be that vigilante violence is needed in an unjust world, or maybe they should've left Kong alone on Skull Island, or that power corrupts absolutely, or etc etc. It only becomes an "agenda" when its something you don't care for. So you pretend comics can be created in a vacuum, with no influence from the outside world and offends nobody's delicate sensibilities and no opinion about anything, ever.

And of all franchises to look for that, the X-Men! Fighting for a world who hates and fears them! Definitely no agendas or influences from current events, that series.

[whiterabbit]

If you can name any work in any creative medium that isn't political in one way, I'll be impressed. Every single work of narrative fiction is pushing some kind of moral standard or agenda, whether it be that vigilante violence is needed in an unjust world, or maybe they should've left Kong alone on Skull Island, or that power corrupts absolutely, or etc etc. It only becomes an "agenda" when its something you don't care for. So you pretend comics can be created in a vacuum, with no influence from the outside world and offends nobody's delicate sensibilities and no opinion about anything, ever.

And of all franchises to look for that, the X-Men! Fighting for a world who hates and fears them! Definitely no agendas or influences from current events, that series.

Surprising to believe so when Mockingbird herself appears on her on comic with a shirt dedicated to feminism or Nick Spencer is gigantic liberal writer who compares conservative Republicans to Nazi's or we have Donald Trump as a villain being punched in the face for trying to make America Great Again. If they had printed a comic in 2008 featuring Spider-Man punching Obama there would have been riots. They do it to Trump, the guy who ended up being the President, and it's fine. Because it's fine when it's one of theirs but not okay when it's one of their own. I don't care about your message. Comics do contain politics but Stan and Jack never told their readers that they were idiots for simply believing something different than they do. Believe or not, the X-men are superheroes who don't tell their readers they're dummies.

[JKtheMac]

You have the internet, JK. Go goggle if Marvel has a liberalism, feminism, or pushed any kind of agenda in the past 5 years. There is a reason Marvel is pushing less politics after Secret Empire. Go check if Angela and Mockingbird had zero agenda's and how their sells are doing.

I also have the actual comics. I read Mockinbird, and Angela. One was a very solid comic, one was slowly turned into a self referential mess. Perhaps the saving grace of Angela was the low key non-ceremonial wedding at the end. If that is liberal feminism then I am all for it. But just because I happen to have liberal feminist sympathies doesn't make me suddenly unable to appreciate politics as a multifaceted and nuanced persuit that can only suffer from polarised thinking.

I have never been a member of any political party because I could never toe the line. I am an individual with my own opinions that cross party lines. So when political books come along that are prepared to get their hands dirty actually addressing such issues with intelligence and multiple points of view then I appreciate them. And we have made the point many times in this thread, we are not talking about diversity here, Marvel are not going to abandon that, we are talking about the way Marvel are addressing actual political debates as seen in Civil War and the Captain America books.

I think you will be disappointed with the so called post-political Marvel, because there is zero chance they will stop using their universe as a reflection of our own, and as such they will always be political. The metaphor may thicken, as it has many times. It may be harder to distinguish individual issues. They are clearly concerned by the way some people are seeing direct analogy where it doesn't exist. But, bottom line, dozens of Marvel's comics have always had political content and they always will. They are baked into the premise, or have been incorporated as key elements in their modern incarnations.

[jackolover]

Age of Apocalypse destroyed the regular universe to create the alternate universe of the Age of Apocalypse, stopped printing of all X-titles and replaced them with new books during that time, and then reset everything at the end after the big story with a few characters brought into the new reset timeline.

Secret Wars destroyed the multiverse to create an alternate universe of Battleworld, stopped printing all titles and replaced them with new books during that time, and then reset everything at the end after the big story with a few characters brought into the new reset universe.

It's about creating a cool event, not about anything bigger long-term.

I can see the similarity in design, yes, but the severity of the destruction is more pronounced in Secret Wars. Marvel didn't have to destroy the Multiverse, like they didn't in AoA, but this time they wiped the board clean. That is a big difference, and what they brought back as ANAD was sub par. Wiping out the MU, Multiverse and all indicates to me Marvel was destroyed. Now hopefully after September they'll have to put it back together the way it was.

[JKtheMac]

If you can name any work in any creative medium that isn't political in one way, I'll be impressed. Every single work of narrative fiction is pushing some kind of moral standard or agenda, whether it be that vigilante violence is needed in an unjust world, or maybe they should've left Kong alone on Skull Island, or that power corrupts absolutely, or etc etc. It only becomes an "agenda" when its something you don't care for. So you pretend comics can be created in a vacuum, with no influence from the outside world and offends nobody's delicate sensibilities and no opinion about anything, ever.

And of all franchises to look for that, the X-Men! Fighting for a world who hates and fears them! Definitely no agendas or influences from current events, that series.

Precisely. I return again to my point about Star Wars. Heavily laden with political analogy from the very start. It is anti-colonial, pro republic, against centralised power, and the military-industrial complex. That doesn't stop a person opposed to those views enjoying the story, or even using the politics as a point of debate.

[jackolover]

Did the UK get "Sledgehammer"? (It was a parody of "Dirty Harry". It was to "vigilante cop" movies what "Airplane!" was to disaster movies.)

You want a fetishized gun? Oh, you have not seen a fetishized gun.




Chimps are very much like people, which is likely why some people dislike them so much. There are multiple documented examples of them engaging in war or just plain old recreational violence. (There are interesting studies of baboons as well.)




Marvel wanted a reboot so they could streamline and modernize. They let Hickman blow everything up because it is more fun/profitable to do it that way than to just announce "everything is now streamlined and modernized".

Thanks for the chimp wars discussion.

I think because of Secret Wars, Marvel gave up, just like they gave up on Spiderman in Brand New Day. You get to a point, and then you can't do anything more with where you took the story. That's what I think happened to Marvel.

[JKtheMac]

Surprising to believe so when Mockingbird herself appears on her on comic with a shirt dedicated to feminism or Nick Spencer is gigantic liberal writer who compares conservative Republicans to Nazi's or we have Donald Trump as a villain being punched in the face for trying to make America Great Again. If they had printed a comic in 2008 featuring Spider-Man punching Obama there would have been riots. They do it to Trump, the guy who ended up being the President, and it's fine. Because it's fine when it's one of theirs but not okay when it's one of their own. I don't care about your message. Comics do contain politics but Stan and Jack never told their readers that they were idiots for simply believing something different than they do. Believe or not, the X-men are superheroes who don't tell their readers they're dummies.

Seriously? Kirby and Lee were making comics about Hitler being punched in the face at the same time people in the US were arguing for Hitler, and against getting involved in the war. Chaplin was making political comedy farce containing a plea to America to recognise what was really happening in Europe.

[jackolover]

Not that Jackolover has ever needed context for any of these threads, but what makes people think that Marvel will stop being political in the one year where it's more important than ever for media to be political?

I'm just going on Marvels announcements to Bleeding cool, (I gave two links on the previous page. Look at them).

But you're right. It is the worst time to discard politics in the books considering the politics at the moment. I can only suggest Ike Perelman put pressure on the editors to leave politics out because he felt his politics was being attacked. If that was the case, it's one of the most blatant interferences by a publisher to his own staffs freedom to express themselves.

[JKtheMac]

I'm just going on Marvels announcements to Bleeding cool, (I gave two links on the previous page. Look at them).

But you're right. It is the worst time to discard politics in the books considering the politics at the moment. I can only suggest Ike Perelman put pressure on the editors to leave politics out because he felt his politics was being attacked. If that was the case, it's one of the most blatant interferences by a publisher to his own staffs freedom to express themselves.

The problem is we have no context to what is really happening in Marvel. But, whatever is going on do we seriously expect Black Panther to stop being political? More to the point Captain America has been political forever. The one time it drifted into straight polarised flag waving the whole run was retconned so that The Patriot could carry the can.

[whiterabbit]

Seriously? Kirby and Lee were making comics about Hitler being punched in the face at the same time people in the US were arguing for Hitler, and against getting involved in the war. Chaplin was making political comedy farce containing a plea to America to recognise what was really happening in Europe.

And Donald Trump, who WON the election (if you forgot), is comparable to a man who committed genocide and declared war on the Earth? Were Stan and Jack making comic books for the Nazi's, JK? Logic seems to say they weren't. It was us VS them as we stood against one of the worst 15 evils to walk the Earth. Now what happens when the preachy, holier than thou, righteous writers are crafting a book that is actually a parody and antagonism of 50% of the reader base who keeps your business going? I don't know what everyone else does, but I walk. Who wants to be bullied? No one. Who wants to pay for the message that you're a terrible person because your perspective is different?

[JKtheMac]

And Donald Trump, who WON the election (if you forgot), is comparable to a man who committed genocide and declared war on the Earth? Were Stan and Jack making comic books for the Nazi's, JK? Logic seems to say they weren't. We were all unified and standing up against something that is unquestionably one of the worst 15 evils to walk the Earth. Now what happens when the preachy, holier than thou, righteous writers are crafting a book that is actually a parody or antagonism of 50% of the reader base who keeps your business going? I don't know what everyone else does, but I walk. Who wants to be bullied? No one. Who wants to pay for the message that you're a terrible person because your perspective is different?

Trump is not in the comics, is not being compared to anyone, you are reading something into the comics that is not there. Red Skull represents the kind of political opportunist that feeds on political rhetoric and turns it into terrorism. Nobody is accusing Trump of supporting terrorism on US soil as far as I know.

[Kintor]

Precisely. I return again to my point about Star Wars. Heavily laden with political analogy from the very start. It is anti-colonial, pro republic, against centralised power, and the military-industrial complex. That doesn't stop a person opposed to those views enjoying the story, or even using the politics as a point of debate.

Yet for all your insinuations about the true politics of Star Wars the fact remains that the most popular and enduing symbols of Star Wars are the Galactic Empire and the Dark Lords of the Sith. When Darth Vader is one of the iconic villains in all of cinema. That the greatest character in the Star Wars EU is Grand Admiral Thrawn. While the tune of the Imperial March is instantly recognisable the world over. Not to mention fan organisations like the 501st legion, dedicated to the authentic reproduction and public display of Stormtrooper armour. Heck, there's even an official Book of Sith, explaining Dark Side philosophy; it's a good read actually.

Sometimes, I wonder if this is why George Lucas decided to sell Star Wars in the end. Perhaps he simply became fearful of the growing power of the Sith in popular culture. That for all his carefully constructed morality plays he couldn't alter the passions of the human race, as audiences the world over forged a stronger association with the Dark Side of the force then his vaunted Jedi. It's a lesson that Marvel (and Disney) would do well to remember, the heavy handed politics they've been advocating as of late just reveals them to be out of touch with the rest of society.