How do you want to see gender equity championed in and by Wonder Woman?

[borntohula]

Good ideas.

I wouldn't ditch the men. What I think people need to realize about the current run is that even if there is too much of everyone else and not enough of WW, you still get a case that everyone is following WW. She is the leader. If you want to show equality of genders, it's good to show that this woman (or various others) can be the leader of women and men alike.

Yeah, while it's a said team book I really like that Diana got to hear it with the "Diana's army". Such a nice thing to say, and something I wish I told people more often IRL.

I also like her as a leader. She's neither afraid to take the lead or to admit she's wrong (even if she perhaps really wasn't.). A strong head with a strong heart.

Perhaps a role that could carry over to Justice League? Her being the glue of the group? And of course not stated before she actually is.

[Dr. Hurt]

Taking my lead from Javier, I am putting up a new thread which takes the focus away from a single statement by a single person and puts it in a broader context. The title explains what that is.

This is not just a discussing of feminism in Wonder Woman. Feminism is a social movement with a philosophy - actually several philosophies, depending on which aspect of feminism you are referring to. The core philosophy of gender equity and how it should be represented in and by Wonder Woman is what we are discussing here. Therefore, this is NOT a discussion about feminism per se. That means if you are talking about whether feminism is good or bad [yes, I take into account that there will be people in either camp] then you are drifting from the topic - gender equity.

I believe that in order for there to be understanding, people must be allowed to come together in DISAGREEMENT! People will say things here you do not agree with, and that's okay. Before you respond to any comment, take a moment to consider WHY the person is saying what they said. What experiences have led the person on the other side of the computer to form these opinions. If you do not know, ask. If your first thought is to assume they are evil or stupid, reconsider or just don't reply. I am not saying you have to agree with everything everyone says, but accept the possibility that you might be wrong, or at least not as right as you initially thought.

This is a very passionate point for many people. Be sensitive to what they might have experienced. And of course, the person you are talking to is not telepathic and might not understand where you are coming from. Unless, of course, you explain. I could have made this thread about all forms of equity, cut I think one type is enough for one thread - other forms of equity and social justice can be discussed in their own threads.

This is about what you want to see happen regarding gender equity, not primarily what you DONT want. If someone says something you disagree with, feel free to disagree but give reasons and give alternatives.

Finally, remember to keep relating the discussion back to the book and its title character [and other characters too]. What would have them say, how would have them act, what situations would you have them confronted with and how would you have them respond?

And...

...go.

I thought feminism was all about gender equality. At least the modern type of feminism.

[Blacksun]

In general, I'd love to read a Wonder Woman book to see Diana spending some of her off hours actively empowering women around the globe. If Superman can stamp out corruption and evil as a journalist, then what can Diana achieve in her non-superhero life? There was a beautiful book and documentary film a few years ago called Half the Sky, and it would please me very much to read about a Wonder Woman who protected, championed, and inspired the women and communities like those depicted in the book/doc. She could do this either as Wonder Woman or as Diana Prince.

On a more specific superhero level, I think it would be great if Wonder Woman pushed the Justice League to recruit and train more female heroes for the team.

how weird is WW coming from a female society and only her as woman in JL and she say nothing about it? In Young Justice she calls out the guys on it, and in the show there is also hawkgirl on the team.

[Dr. Hurt]

how weird is WW coming from a female society and only her as woman in JL and she say nothing about it? In Young Justice she calls out the guys on it, and in the show there is also hawkgirl on the team.

That will never happen because it's not the characters that are responsible for the roster, it's the writers and editors. So if WW chastises them for not having any women there, it'd be like chastising Didio, Lee and Johns. In any case i'd much rather they had Vixen and Canary on the team from the get go. We'd get a better JL and spare outselves (and WW) the fuss.

[AmiMizuno]

More Male Villains make it equal moment of Villains. The amazons reason why they can submit to man should be updated to both parties have to mutual submission. My main problem is the males are more important them the females. I want a balance or just leave it as it was and in outside world we have a controlled moment of people that impact Diana's life. Stop making the amazons man haters and brutes. At least give them mystic.

[Blacksun]

That will never happen because it's not the characters that are responsible for the roster, it's the writers and editors. So if WW chastises them for not having any women there, it'd be like chastising Didio, Lee and Johns. In any case i'd much rather they had Vixen and Canary on the team from the get go. We'd get a better JL and spare outselves (and WW) the fuss.

Maybe DC should do some self critic? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KZ_wJFjkYI in young justice they had 3 women. there's also when Batgirl calls out nightwing because he explain why the all female team, if was a all male team on a mission he wouldn't need to justify. the show did a good self critic on genders. this is what WW should do more often.
But you are right, DC wouldn't recognize their mistakes.

[AmiMizuno]

When we think about couldn't she say something like this? We need to open our rooster to not just on this Earth but beyond it. We need to welcome both Aliens and humans. Females and Males. Whatever religion, Gender, Race, or Sexual orientation, Alien It does not matter for a truth hero is from within for a truth measure of a hero is there heart.

[BlackFeath]

In general, I'd love to read a Wonder Woman book to see Diana spending some of her off hours actively empowering women around the globe. If Superman can stamp out corruption and evil as a journalist, then what can Diana achieve in her non-superhero life? There was a beautiful book and documentary film a few years ago called Half the Sky, and it would please me very much to read about a Wonder Woman who protected, championed, and inspired the women and communities like those depicted in the book/doc. She could do this either as Wonder Woman or as Diana Prince.

On a more specific superhero level, I think it would be great if Wonder Woman pushed the Justice League to recruit and train more female heroes for the team.

I totally agree with you on this =)
What about Mera, for example? I think we will see a team up of the two soon in Aquaman, Diana could push for her to join the league!
And also Black Canary, maybe...they were friends pre-52.


Also the team up with Batwoman was good.

I would really like to see Diana on missions with other female heroines, and them to join the league on Diana's suggestion.
Oh..and Artemis, Donna, Cassy,... I would like them back too...

And what about something like this? =)

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__...n_600_(01).jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/..._0005_0006.jpg

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...n_600_(04).jpg

About her no superheroine persona... I remember what she said in Justice League when her and Clark went to Kandaq to rescue those people... She wanted to give them water and food.

Of course going there as Wonder Woman she was risking to scare people, but what about going there as Diana Prince, like she did in Spirit of the Truth?

I would like her to act like she did there and in A day in the life, and also in Odyssey sometimes. Going where people need her, help people in general, protect them, but also empowering women, teaching them to defend themselves.







I'd like her to do that as Diana Prince and not as Ambassador. As Diana Prince she can stay more in touch with them.

While she is there helping people, there could be some situations where Wonder Woman is needed though, and then it would be good to see her reveal herself to the people she has helped till then in disguise.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...4-ww-st-58.jpg

Some of the people she helps could enter in her supporting cast, and of course, she is still young and so she could learn a lot from these people while teaching them.

[AmiMizuno]

Superman can stamp out corruption and evil as a journalist, then what can Diana achieve in her non-superhero life?

This is why I always loved her Diana Prince Id. She can empower women. Why not make her a writer and motivation speaker. Even a blogger. She go's around the world helping women as well men. Teaching them to defend themselves and be independent . Teaching them what love is a both way road both people have to committed not just one. At times even getting them a new home.

[brettc1]

First of all? Great thread, Brett!

Thank you

I don't think the male characters need to be "ditched." But they can definitely have their importance downplayed some.

Totally agree on bringing back Diana's female supporting cast. Donna, Cassie (sans Stupid Demon Armor), Artemis, Nubia? Throw in Io, and sold!

Athena's influence? I'm thinking that reveal may be coming. Azz has been subtly hinting at Athena's presence for a while now. I'm hoping she shows up in a big way and your idea that she may have secretly trained Diana would be a great reveal.

Downplaying the Amazon's participation in the sex raids? Hells yeah! Having Diana teach the Amazons to be more gender-equal? That's just about the only thing that can make all the other badness from the Amazons worthwhile in the end. I don't mind the Amazons starting out savage, but I want to see them EVOLVE into the great women I've always loved and admired.

So, pretty much this ^^^^^^

Yup. Again, the only reason why I've tolerated the sex raids is because it gives the Amazons a dark past to motivate them to move on and leave that past behind them.

Having them take care of their sons, who they abandoned, as part of their atonement for past mistakes is a great starting point.

I love the idea of Diana empowering women. Both in and out of her role as a hero. I'm usually not the biggest fan of the Diana Prince secret ID, but if "Diana Prince" were to start up some international organization dedicated to improving the lives of women all over the world? I might just warm to the idea after all.

Even if she doesn't start her OWN organization, I'd love to see Diana start working with organizations that already exist in the world. This doesn't even have to downplay her superheroics. Story ideas abound with her doing stuff like this. What if Diana finds out that a supervillain is secretly behind a human trafficking ring? What if Diana discovers that a sudden surge of women turning up at battered women's clinics is the result of some kind of "Hate Demon" that's inflicting their husbands with some kind of insane misogyny? What if the DC equivalent of Boko Haram is holding girls hostage, and he's infused with the power of a god, so that the U.N. literally CAN'T rescue those girls without Diana's help?

And I can't agree enough with the idea of Diana advocating more women on the League. Honestly, I can't fathom why she hasn't done this already. Let's just hope that after this new Crisis (if that's what we're heading for), the League comes out of it more serious about doing their jobs right, and they finally recognize the need for a REAL roster expansion. One that will hopefully see Diana help to bring in a ton of deserving heroines.

Personally, I like the word empowering much better than teaching.

Teaching people, while it sounds good [and is a great job] is a dominant role. Ironic, considering WW's 40's background, but it doesn't really work because people have to WANT to be taught. The old saying is "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear."

Its very difficult to sell this. Putting WW as a figure who has all wisdom which she dispenses to the ignorant masses immediately alienates her from a lot of people. I'm not saying the ideas she espouses are wrong, just that having the main character as a teacher can be very difficult.

Personally, I think a better way to engage the audience and still maintain that role of championing equity is to have Diana and other Amazons setting an active example. Actions speak louder than words. Having Diana in a civilian role, in her secret id, being an example of equality simply by being who she is as a person instead of as a costumed celebrity. It's ever easy for people to be dismissive of the opinions of a celebrity superhuman because no matter how well you write her, her incredible abilities [which 99.999999% of people on the planet could never aspire to] separate her from ordinary folks.

In short, I think there has to be a feeling that she is down on the level of ordinary humans, both women and men. Honestly, even her apartment in London is more than most people can afford. But the scenes showing her dancing in the pub are a step in the right direction because they show her connecting with ordinary humans. Something which has been sadly lacking for the last three years. The only ordinary person she has connected with is Zola, and only because Zola was dragged unwillingly in Wonder Woman's world.

So perhaps what is called for is less time in OZ, and more time in Kansas.

[DochaDocha]

So perhaps what is called for is less time in OZ, and more time in Kansas.

Smallville is in Kansas...

[/trolling brettc1]


But back to the topic at hand. How commercially viable is this? I feel like the limiting factor here is that DC or WB (assuming the movie gets made) is going to see the social stuff as a bit preachy, and would rather go Michael Bay and concentrate on the action bits that seems to correlate well with big box office receipts.

[kidstandout]

When we think about couldn't she say something like this? We need to open our rooster to not just on this Earth but beyond it. We need to welcome both Aliens and humans. Females and Males. Whatever religion, Gender, Race, or Sexual orientation, Alien It does not matter for a truth hero is from within for a truth measure of a hero is there heart.

because it comes off as too preachy, i don't want diana recruiting members looking like she's trying to fill a diversity quota. she should just nominate more females and be done with it. yj did it in a way that was subtle, but straight forward. a simple comment on the sausage fest followed by nominating new females, no sermons thank you very much

[AmiMizuno]

Actions speak louder than words. Having Diana in a civilian role, in her secret id, being an example of equality simply by being who she is as a person instead of as a costumed celebrity

Agreed, I feel that she should be Diana Prince. She should be a freelancer writer and motivation speaker.

[Vanguard-01]

Personally, I like the word empowering much better than teaching.

Teaching people, while it sounds good [and is a great job] is a dominant role. Ironic, considering WW's 40's background, but it doesn't really work because people have to WANT to be taught. The old saying is "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear."

Its very difficult to sell this. Putting WW as a figure who has all wisdom which she dispenses to the ignorant masses immediately alienates her from a lot of people. I'm not saying the ideas she espouses are wrong, just that having the main character as a teacher can be very difficult.

Personally, I think a better way to engage the audience and still maintain that role of championing equity is to have Diana and other Amazons setting an active example. Actions speak louder than words. Having Diana in a civilian role, in her secret id, being an example of equality simply by being who she is as a person instead of as a costumed celebrity. It's ever easy for people to be dismissive of the opinions of a celebrity superhuman because no matter how well you write her, her incredible abilities [which 99.999999% of people on the planet could never aspire to] separate her from ordinary folks.

In short, I think there has to be a feeling that she is down on the level of ordinary humans, both women and men. Honestly, even her apartment in London is more than most people can afford. But the scenes showing her dancing in the pub are a step in the right direction because they show her connecting with ordinary humans. Something which has been sadly lacking for the last three years. The only ordinary person she has connected with is Zola, and only because Zola was dragged unwillingly in Wonder Woman's world.

So perhaps what is called for is less time in OZ, and more time in Kansas.

Yeah, I think that's something that a LOT of superheroes need to get back to. This is representative of a lamentable shift in comic book writing philosophy: the near-elimination of the secret identity.

Look at Marvel and DC. What do you see? Peter Parker unmasking as a publicity stunt (the fact that it was retconned is immaterial), Tony Stark swaggering around in front of the cameras with his helmet off, Wonder Woman living more like a celebrity who fights evil than anything else, even Clark Kent's importance hasn't been as significant as it used to be.

And what has been the result of this sudden attitude that heroes should just be heroes all the time? More stories about heroes showing signs of developing a "god complex" and thinking they can do whatever they want. More stories about heroes believing that even their fellow heroes are wayward children who must be shown the error of their ways. More stories about the people being more afraid of the men and women who are supposed to be keeping them safe, rather than being grateful and admiring of them.

DC and Marvel's universes suck so much today because they let them suck by writing all these stories wherein their heroes behave more like gods than heroes.

Now, not every hero necessarily NEEDS a secret identity. For some, it just doesn't work. But they all DO need to have more connections to the "mortal" world. I refuse to believe that Tony Stark would've developed the god complex he has now if he actually spent a lunch every month or so with the rank and file employees of his company, or if he didn't spend so much time trying to bang every superheroine in the Marvel Universe.

So, yeah. In general, superheroes need to connect with the people more. Good point.

Yeah, you're also right about Diana being more about leading by example, rather than being a teacher, coming to enlighten us. Having her show us a better way, rather than lecturing us about it, is a much more inspiring representation of what she's supposed to be about.

[ed2962]

But back to the topic at hand. How commercially viable is this? I feel like the limiting factor here is that DC or WB (assuming the movie gets made) is going to see the social stuff as a bit preachy, and would rather go Michael Bay and concentrate on the action bits that seems to correlate well with big box office receipts.

It depends on how it's done... Just show her acting on those ideas as opposed to speechifying. SHOW her having deep relationships with women, but also having men friends. SHOW her occasionally extending her hand to an enemy. SHOW her saving kids or oppressed people. She doesn't have to preach every issue.

Capt America's a patriotic hero who believes in freedom and equality, but it's not like he's quoting the Bill of Right every story.