Tom King Ranks The Batfamily By Fighting Skills

[Zainu]

Some salty fans throwing shade at Cass in this thread. It's to be expected though..

[dietrich]

but what I can't understand is how damian a 10 year old manages to do half the stuff he does to bigger people

Attachment 46015

Damn kid is a Ninja. Badass and still has baby teeth. Respect.

[millernumber1]

Me neither. We used to have a "Rumbles" board here, and the rules on there were that in any argument over what a character could do, what is shown in the art always takes priority over what is stated in the text. I never really went there, but to me that was always a bit too hard-line.

That's utterly ridiculous. That means any height questions would never be remotely possible, since artists constantly change the heights of characters.

While Bette is definitely underappreciated, speaking as someone whose read almost all of her major appearences, I can't say that I could see her contending with the others you've listed here. Using just the people you named, here's how I'd rank them:

1. Cassandra
2. Bruce
3. Dick
4. Jason
5. Tim
6. Steph
7. Damian
8. Babs
9. Helena
10. Kate
11. Luke
12. Bette

9.

Ah, but is this Bette post-gutting and training by Jake and the Crows? I'm still really mad that she larked off to LA after a broken bone so we never got to see how hard she'd gotten.

Some salty fans throwing shade at Cass in this thread. It's to be expected though..

Um. Just because I think Cass dodging bullets is idiotic doesn't mean I don't think she's a great character. I still would put her at the top of the list of hand to hand.

[Zainu]

Um. Just because I think Cass dodging bullets is idiotic doesn't mean I don't think she's a great character. I still would put her at the top of the list of hand to hand.

My comment wasn't directed at anyone in particular, since I don't remember who said what. I'm just talking about users who keep passive-agressively mocking Cass for being 'The Greatest Fighter of All Time™'. And they're damn right, my girl is the best fighter in DC outside of Karate Kid(haha, alright, I'm just joking. H2H power lists can easily change with writers and eras...but I still love my baby ass-kicker).

With that said, I've finished reading most of this thread, and I want to address some things.

Cass is more than her 'power level' or her skill showings. Most of her fans like her for the person or character she is(mainly displayed in her original Batgirl run by Kelley Puckett, but other writers have done reasonable justice to her as well). Some of you are saying that she's a 2-bit character because you think she's all about the ass kicking, when that is so far from the truth. While Cass does live and breathe martial arts, she also grapples with who/what she is, her past, the missions she undertakes, and her relations with other people/the outside world. Like honestly, go and read the first 24 issues of her series before you run your mouths about her being a sh!t character with little character developement. All you've seen are silent cameo appearances and snippets of her person, not the real deal(maybe throw in some No Man's Land issues/tie-ins, since her interaction with the family is gold. I even loved her team up with Catwoman, and her friendship with Azrael was really great...I really liked it. Her Superboy crossovers were fun too).

She could give Bruce a good fight(or is it the other way around) and win. In her original series, she is ripped and has a compact muscle-bound body a la Bruce Lee. Her boobs are the only fat on her. Pound for pound, I bet Cass can deliver more. Plus, she's been living this life since birth, while Bruce started down this road at the age of 10. Her bones have been broken down and reforged enough that any part of her body(legs, feet, elbow, hands, etc) could be used as a deadly striking weapon. Someone here argued that she can't take Jason because he's a tank and that his blows would be heavier, but that might be contested(with the above). Cass has taken on tank meta-humans before, and has come out on top. She switched to delivering strikes that were hard enough to crush human skulls in order to knock him out. Also, in the tanking blows department, Cass is no slouch when it comes to pain(or resisting it). Aside from the times that she's shouldered bullet wounds or repeated hits to injuries(such of broken arms), she could also take hits from Batman and Shiva(Cass would bleed and bruise, but would still be standing). A fight between her and Jason would be interesting(especially since Lobdell boosted him up with this mystical assasin thing), but it wouldn't be this one-sided affair that some would paint it as. I don't care if he's bigger or heavier. Cass would strike faster and harder.

[Assam]

My comment wasn't directed at anyone in particular, since I don't remember who said what. I'm just talking about users who keep passive-agressively mocking Cass for being 'The Greatest Fighter of All Time™'. And they're damn right, my girl is the best fighter in DC outside of Karate Kid(haha, alright, I'm just joking. H2H power lists can easily change with writers and eras...but I still love my baby ass-kicker).

With that said, I've finished reading most of this thread, and I want to address some things.

Cass is more than her 'power level' or her skill showings. Most of her fans like her for the person or character she is(mainly displayed in her original Batgirl run by Kelley Puckett, but other writers have done reasonable justice to her as well). Some of you are saying that she's a 2-bit character because you think she's all about the ass kicking, when that is so far from the truth. While Cass does live and breathe martial arts, she also grapples with who/what she is, her past, the missions she undertakes, and her relations with other people/the outside world. Like honestly, go and read the first 24 issues of her series before you run your mouths about her being a sh!t character with little character developement. All you've seen are silent cameo appearances and snippets of her person, not the real deal(maybe throw in some No Man's Land issues/tie-ins, since her interaction with the family is gold. I even loved her team up with Catwoman, and her friendship with Azrael was really great...I really liked it. Her Superboy crossovers were fun too).

She could give Bruce a good fight(or is it the other way around) and win. In her original series, she is ripped and has a compact muscle-bound body a la Bruce Lee. Her boobs are the only fat on her. Pound for pound, I bet Cass can deliver more. Plus, she's been living this life since birth, while Bruce started down this road at the age of 10. Her bones have been broken down and reforged enough that any part of her body(legs, feet, elbow, hands, etc) could be used as a deadly striking weapon. Someone here argued that she can't take Jason because he's a tank and that his blows would be heavier, but that might be contested(with the above). Cass has taken on tank meta-humans before, and has come out on top. She switched to delivering strikes that were hard enough to crush human skulls in order to knock him out. Also, in the tanking blows department, Cass is no slouch when it comes to pain(or resisting it). Aside from the times that she's shouldered bullet wounds or repeated hits to injuries(such of broken arms), she could also take hits from Batman and Shiva(Cass would bleed and bruise, but would still be standing). A fight between her and Jason would be interesting(especially since Lobdell boosted him up with this mystical assasin thing), but it wouldn't be this one-sided affair that some would paint it as. I don't care if he's bigger or heavier. Cass would strike faster and harder.

Thank you for understanding my favorite fictional character. Haters really need to read her original run, AKA, the greatest run in the history of comics.

I'm curious why you said "the first 24 issues of her series". The fantastic conclusion to her "Death Wish" arc is Batgirl #25, and Pucket's run didn't end until #37.

I'm of the opinion that, while an out to kill Jason or Azrael could put up a decent fight, and maybe even force Cass to go all out (I don't think Dick could because A) His fighting style would be less practical against Cass than the two I mentioned, and B) We've seen her treat him like a joke in their fights before), but the only member of the BatFam I could see actually beating Cass under any circumstances is Batman himself, and even then, if we did this in the battle forum's "Out of 10" format, my money would still be on Cass taking the majority.

PS. I find it hilarious how Azrael was a better big bro to Cass in one issue than Dick was in 12 years.

[bat_girl_cc]

Psssst.

Oliver has dodged bullets and shot arrows in the same fight sequence. Ask Red Hood.

So now that we can stop pretending that characters like Shiva can`t be touched (despite having already laid down a example where she was), can we just agree on the obvious comic book physics thingie that archery in the hands of a world`s best is something to worry about like so many other things? Thanks.

Can we also drop most of these peak human/meta stuff? Peak humans in comics (and oter media, just look at the absurd stunts Dominic Toretto pulls in the F&F franchise) do things that are impossible in real life. It`s no big deal, it`s like the human potential idealized. But Spider-man doesn`t even belong in the question. He`s most certainly superpowered. A "meta" if you will, ever since he was a teenager. There was never anything "street level" about him.

1) Yeah, no...that is a common misconception...Green Arrow (Oliver) has never actually dodged a bullet...what he did, Dick Grayson did, Jason did, Tim, Damian, Babs, Steph, and just about every street-leveler does...is aim-dodging...aim-dodging =/= bullet-dodging...aim-dodging means that by the time that the bullet its fired you're no longer in its way, so basically you're dodging the shooter and the aim of his gun, not the actual bullet...whereas bullet-dodging (as the name says it) implicates dodging the actual bullet...to perform aim-dodging you don't need to have bullet timing-speed, all you need is to be faster or just have quicker reflexes than the shooter, and that is only impressive if the shooter is impressive.
Just show me one exemple of Oliver (actually) dodging a bullet...the same way that Cass did in the scans that i already posted on this thread...i'm asking for just one (even tho it would still be inconsistent for him to do it if he only had done it once) because i know that he doesn't have any.
Arrows are much MUCH slower than bullets...regardless, show me one exemple of Oliver (actually) dodging a arrow, and not only "avoiding it" (another term for "aim-dodging").
2) Characters that shouldn't lose a certain fight, will lose it anyways, or characters that should just look better in some instances than what they actually did won't anyways, from time to time, due to plot purposes, its nothing new...doesn't mean that it should happen, though.
3) there's several "tiers" of the things that you're trying to put all in the same bag...(low-street/mid-street/high-street) some feats have only been performed by certain characters consistently, hence why they get put above the others, even between "street-levelers"...i'm pretty sure that you're thinking about things that Stephanie Brown could do easly and thinking that puts her on the same ground that Batman, and others...no...whats a high-end-showing for some street-levelers, its a low-showing for others.
4) Spider-Man is between the line that divides street-levelers from mid-tiers, yes he has many "mid-tier" feats, but he also has hundreds of "street-level" showings, Deathstroke, Black Panther, Captain America, etc are all street-levelers.

[bat_girl_cc]

I'm with you guys on this. I don't see how reading people's body language equates to being fast enough to dodge bullets. If a character is meta fine but otherwise it makes no sense

It was explained and shown that due to the way that Cass was born raised and trained, she can do what she does...her father used to freakin shoot her all over her body...hence why she now can tank bullets easly without even flinching...she was training to amp her stats (you know training makes you better, in comics more so than in real-life) but with Cass it wasn't generic training, it was special, because it was different and unique, and that was the reason that the writters found for Cass doing what she does, besides comics logic needs some suspension of desbelif, no big deal

[bat_girl_cc]

It wasn't stated that Cass was trained to "amp her stats" but it was pretty self-explanatory, it was shown her father testing her physical limits to well, the limit...and i'd say that she did fine

[bat_girl_cc]

Some salty fans throwing shade at Cass in this thread. It's to be expected though..

Ya, you know...i kinda saw this coming...it wasn't my objective, but the early discussion led to this...as they say: "one thing led to another, and the rest is history"...
But you know, they are salty about her speed...lets see how they react to her "stricking-force":

Cass opens a huge hole on a brick-wall:

[bat_girl_cc]

Cass punches through 3-inch-quartz:

[bat_girl_cc]

K.O's a superhuman with one punch:

[bat_girl_cc]

Kicks a big punching bag with enough force to cause huge steel chains to break:




This should be enough to keep the salt going for now

[adrikito]

WOW... Cass is really really strong.

[Aahz]

I'm of the opinion that, while an out to kill Jason or Azrael could put up a decent fight, and maybe even force Cass to go all out

Honestly I think when Azrael is really at his full power level (what is hardly ever the case in the comics) Cass is probaly screwed.

[bat_girl_cc]

Honestly I think when Azrael is really at his full power level (what is hardly ever the case in the comics) Cass is probaly screwed.

Probably yes, if he's actually trying, yes...she and pretty much everybody else at street-level...but yeah both going all out it would be something really good to see...although, Cass would be in trouble.