Tom King Ranks The Batfamily By Fighting Skills

[joybeans]

Time to grab the popcorn

[Atlanta96]

Also, it would be nice if the 2 separate threads on this topic were merged.

[Caivu]

I'm mostly pleased with that original list. Weird to see Helena but not Barbara, and if Steph is on the list I'm surprised she's not last, since she's admitted to being the weakest member of the whole Batfamily. She makes up for that in her fighting style, but still. Kate being right in the middle is pretty much where I think of her being (I actually think she, Damian, and Jason are pretty much even to the point where there's no significant difference. Their strengths and weaknesses balance each other out, I think).

Just sticking to these characters, I'd have it:

1. Cassandra
2. Bruce
3. Dick
4. Damian
5. Kate
6. Helena
7. Jason
8. Tim
9. Duke
10. Stephanie

So, pretty close. Jason and Helena I can quibble on.

Taking Helena out and adding Barbara in (since Helena being a Batfamily member is a little iffy):

1. Cassandra
2. Bruce
3. Dick
4. Damian
5. Kate
6. Jason
7. Barbara
8. Tim
9. Duke
10. Stephanie

[Frontier]

I think Barbara should, at best, be on par or a little below Kate (and maybe below Jason). I'd like her to be higher, but I also don't think she's exactly on par with the top four.

I wonder where Selina would fit in...I'd probably put her in the 5-7 range.

Also, what's up with "Earth 1" - does he literally mean Geoff Johns's Earth One series, or does he mean the current main continuity?

Most of these characters haven't shown up in Earth One, so I imagine King means "main Earth" when he says "Earth-1."

[thefiresky]

This man is reckless!!!!! It's trolling the internet without trolling (i.e. i believe his list is true to heart for him)

[Aahz]

Jason's spot feels about right.

Imo he should be around Dicks level. And above Kate, Helena and Damian.

I could understand leaving Dinah out if this was concerned with just the core Batfamily, but then Helena's on the list...

Huntress is at least traditionally part of the Batfamily, Black canary not really. If you go back to pre flashpoint Helena had Appearences in batman storylines line No Man's Land, Hush or Outlaws and a lot of smaller stories, Dinah had never a connection to the Batman franchise appart from BoP.

[Powertool]

Cassie is first. All is right in the world.

[millernumber1]

This is important.

https://twitter.com/tomkingtk/status/833738440739061763

I wouldn't rank the current Barbara Gordon highly in any regard. But Pre-Flashpoint, maybe. Still not as good at strategy as Tim IMO but she was formidable.

To add King's text to the discussion:

"This in one-on-one, hand-to-hand, not about long term strategies, where Batman would be #1, Batgirl (Barbara) #2, Tim #3, Jason below Ace."

[Frontier]

I'm not even Tim's biggest fan but no way in hell is Duke above him; ranking Dick above Bruce is rather absurd to me as well, sorry. And lol at him saying Earth-1 when DC continuity is actually Earth-0.

I would do...

1. Bruce
2. Cassie
3. Dick
4. Damian
5. Kate
6. Tim
7. Jason
8. Helena (Bertinelli?)
9. Stephanie
10. Duke

Just because Cassie, JPV, etc. have been shown to be able to beat Bruce hand-to-hand in certain situations, doesn't mean they automatically rank above him as a fighter. Batman is on top in my opinion, no question. I'd probably put Jean Paul above Kate at least.

That's actually a good question. Where would Azrael rank on this list? Or does his sword and tech discount him since this is hand-to-hand/fighting ability based?

[SiegePerilous02]

This is important.

https://twitter.com/tomkingtk/status/833738440739061763

I wouldn't rank the current Barbara Gordon highly in any regard. But Pre-Flashpoint, maybe. Still not as good at strategy as Tim IMO but she was formidable.

As one of the twitter responses said: she's got a natural eidetic memory and she was raised by one of the best cops/detectives in the city and trained by the best vigilante detective ever. She should be better at long term planning than Tim.

Still don't get why she's not on the hand-to-hand list. Now way is she inferior to Steph and Duke, and I feel like Jason (and maybe Tim) would only be ranked higher because they have the Robin cred going for them.

[millernumber1]

Most of these characters haven't shown up in Earth One, so I imagine King means "main Earth" when he says "Earth-1."

Ah. That makes sense, and is what I assumed, but it was confusing. But I don't think King was putting on his "serious continuity" hat with this tweet. Or maybe he was, and I'm just silly.

Imo he should be around Dicks level. And above Kate, Helena and Damian.

Huntress is at least traditionally part of the Batfamily, Black canary not really. If you go back to pre flashpoint Helena had Appearences in batman storylines line No Man's Land, Hush or Outlaws and a lot of smaller stories, Dinah had never a connection to the Batman franchise appart from BoP.

Good point. I always think of Dinah as a Batfamily member, but that's totally true - she's not, really, just best friends with two of them.

[Frontier]

Huntress is at least traditionally part of the Batfamily, Black canary not really. If you go back to pre flashpoint Helena had Appearences in batman storylines line No Man's Land, Hush or Outlaws and a lot of smaller stories, Dinah had never a connection to the Batman franchise appart from BoP.

True. She used to have the same kind of "honorary" status that Steph did, in that she in some ways counted as part of the family and interacts with them quite a bit despite her outsider status.

[Alycat]

As one of the twitter responses said: she's got a natural eidetic memory and she was raised by one of the best cops/detectives in the city and trained by the best vigilante detective ever. She should be better at long term planning than Tim.

Still don't get why she's not on the hand-to-hand list. Now way is she inferior to Steph and Duke, and I feel like Jason (and maybe Tim) would only be ranked higher because they have the Robin cred going for them.

Nah, I can't see Babs taking Jason or Tim, especially the current one. She has no feats to even prove that. Heck, I would put her below Kate and Helena as well.

[millernumber1]

As one of the twitter responses said: she's got a natural eidetic memory and she was raised by one of the best cops/detectives in the city and trained by the best vigilante detective ever. She should be better at long term planning than Tim.

Still don't get why she's not on the hand-to-hand list. Now way is she inferior to Steph and Duke, and I feel like Jason (and maybe Tim) would only be ranked higher because they have the Robin cred going for them.

Babs had (at least in post-Crisis per Batgirl Year One) some karate classes, and maybe a bit of training from Dick. Steph had training from Bruce, Cass, and Tim in fighting. Babs was beaten by a novice Huntress in Huntress Year One while she was Batgirl.

NOW, if you remember Oracle: Year One, she also has escrima training from Richard Dragon, so that might actually bump her up a lot. But current Batgirl? I don't think we've had enough shown of her pre-Oracle ability or training (or, honestly, her post-Oracle training - she just does a lot of stuff, we don't see a lot of references to her training).

Of course, current Steph is very confusing as to her training and such - closest we've got before Tec was the references to Dick sending her training materials in Batman and Robin Eternal.

[millernumber1]

Nah, I can't see Babs taking Jason or Tim, especially the current one. She has no feats to even prove that. Heck, I would put her below Kate and Helena as well.

Babs took Jason down super hard in Batman Eternal.