Is Batman a Bad Father in Rebirth?

[dietrich]

Can you maybe elaborate "abusive and manipulative" a little bit more? Are we only talking about the big fight between Jason and Bruce in RHatO #25?

Because RHatO actually has some really nice moments with good dad Bruce.

I'm talking about the Big fight and trying to haul him off to Arkham. I'm talking about the whole deal which forces Jason to compromise on his ideals just to be accepted. The anywhere but in Gotham deal.

[Tzigone]

Damian was a child of a happy accident. According to Bruce in Robin Rises he fell in love and followed his heart.

I really don't like that version. Not sure if it's still in continuity, either. Frankly, they never have been able to keep his conception straight.

Also Bruce has 3 children.

I'm still bitter about Cass. And I do think they count as his kids, even if they aren't formally adopted, as metioned (did adoptions for Jason and Dick get reinstated)?

[Restingvoice]

Makes me think of this. It's basically an article on employee management saying 6 pieces of positive feedback to 1 piece of negative is a good ratio. While I'm certainly not going to pin it to a number, myself, I do think it takes a significant number of good acts to outweigh one bad one. It certainly applies to me as a reader, anyway.

Oh, you're using that point of view, then yeah, it's bad.

[dietrich]

I really don't like that version. Not sure if it's still in continuity, either. Frankly, they never have been able to keep his conception straight.

I'm still bitter about Cass. And I do think they count as his kids, even if they aren't formally adopted, as metioned (did adoptions for Jason and Dick get reinstated)?

It is still in continuity unless someone retconned robin rises? No one has mentioned his conception since Robin Rises. So yep he was a product of Batman falling in love [not quite as solid as his original origin where they were engaged but better than Morrison's error]

I do think Dick is adopted [we've got conflicting info in Rebirth] but I know Jason said he was a foster kid and Tim is his ward. that makes 4 kids actually my mistake.

There is nothing to support that Bruce is legally responsible for Cass or Steph and Duke's legal Guardian is his uncle.

[redmax99]

I would say considering how he became a father, he’s doing the best he can. Damien isn’t a child he has known since he was baby, expecting Bruce to suddenly take to fatherhood is a big ask.

Damien isn’t the child of a loving relationship or even a happy accident, he’s the product of the scheme by one of Bruce’s rogues. So I think calling him a bad father is a tad harsh.

The situation with his adopted children and wards is frankly messed up.

bruce and Talia were married when she got pregant with damian, Talia fake a miscarrige because he was going to get himself killed trying to protect her. i don't care about the retcons original stories always wins out

[Vakanai]

Yes, Batman is a bad father...so can we have him not be a father?

(Feeling on a particular anti-son kick at the moment)

[Restingvoice]

It is still in continuity unless someone retconned robin rises? No one has mentioned his conception since Robin Rises. So yep he was a product of Batman falling in love [not quite as solid as his original origin where they were engaged but better than Morrison's error]

I do think Dick is adopted [we've got conflicting info in Rebirth] but I know Jason said he was a foster kid and Tim is his ward. that makes 4 kids actually my mistake.

There is nothing to support that Bruce is legally responsible for Cass or Steph and Duke's legal Guardian is his uncle.

Robin Rises is not retconned as far as Damian dead and revived is concerned but the most recent Talia before Leviathan was Priest, I think, who doesn't care about Damian beyond a tool for revenge during the Son of Deathstroke arc and did a kill or be killed training. I don't remember if this affects the conception but the impression I got was she really didn't care.

Though Tomasi wrote Talia in Super Sons like she wants the best for him so it's still contradictory... kinda like how Batman treats his kids lol

[Celgress]

OP Question -

Oh hell yeah he is a bad father, at least IMO.

[Tzigone]

bruce and Talia were married when she got pregant with damian, Talia fake a miscarrige because he was going to get himself killed trying to protect her. i don't care about the retcons original stories always wins out

Wasn't that originally supposed to be out of continuity? And therefore not the actual background for the in-continuity Damian? Or did I get mixed up? Either way, I don't like my heroes marrying people as immoral as Talia al Ghoul (and I'm not talking about stuff she did later, but pre-crisis stuff). Even if he does have a long-standing fetish for bad girls.

[Restingvoice]

Wasn't that originally supposed to be out of continuity? And therefore not the actual background for the in-continuity Damian? Or did I get mixed up? Either way, I don't like my heroes marrying people as immoral as Talia al Ghoul (and I'm not talking about stuff she did later, but pre-crisis stuff). Even if he does have a long-standing fetish for bad girls.

It was and still is out of continuity. The original Damian was not named Damian but Ibn Al Xuffash and only appeared beside that story in Kingdom Come. Morrison remembers it wrong and adapted that story to his own continuity the way he remembered it and resulted in nonconsensual intercourse and a mischaracterized Talia. He acknowledged it's wrong later, but by that point, the story's already ongoing. During the New 52, he changed the relationship to be consensual but evil Talia remained.

[Jackalope89]

It was and still is out of continuity. The original Damian was not named Damian but Ibn Al Xuffash and only appeared beside that story in Kingdom Come. Morrison remembers it wrong and adapted that story to his own continuity the way he remembered it and resulted in nonconsensual intercourse and a mischaracterized Talia. He acknowledged it's wrong later, but by that point, the story's already ongoing. During the New 52, he changed the relationship to be consensual but evil Talia remained.

Though Talia became more gray in regards to Jason. Brought him to the All Caste (good assassins) to train. And I don't believe either really has anything against the other, last I checked.

[Restingvoice]

Though Talia became more gray in regards to Jason. Brought him to the All Caste (good assassins) to train. And I don't believe either really has anything against the other, last I checked.

Yeah, Jason only went against Talia because he's on Bruce's side most of the time and she wanted to destroy the world, but nothing against her personally.

[dietrich]

Robin Rises is not retconned as far as Damian dead and revived is concerned but the most recent Talia before Leviathan was Priest, I think, who doesn't care about Damian beyond a tool for revenge during the Son of Deathstroke arc and did a kill or be killed training. I don't remember if this affects the conception but the impression I got was she really didn't care.

Though Tomasi wrote Talia in Super Sons like she wants the best for him so it's still contradictory... kinda like how Batman treats his kids lol

Yeah I know Robin Rises is not retconed. the story of his conception that Bruce narrated is still canon.

i think Priest's talia has a dash of Morrison's who has long since fallen out of love with Bruce [note Inc was a divorce story according to Morrison and talia herself notes that what she's about to do next the detective is never going to forgive her for and yet she goes ahead.

After damian is killed Bruce still appears to have feeling for her [making out with her instead of arresting her and appearing to break down when she's shot] despite the horrid thing's she's done while she's more concerned with her plans.

Priest talia like Morrison's was once in love but has long since fallen out of love and both talia have a warped concept of what caring means when it comes to Damian.

Tomasi's Talia cared but she cared more about Damian the future Alexander. the little perfect weapon she created not Damian the child which is consistent with Priest's and Morrison's talia.

[Restingvoice]

Yeah I know Robin Rises is not retconed. the story of his conception that Bruce narrated is still canon.

i think Priest's talia has a dash of Morrison's who has long since fallen out of love with Bruce [note Inc was a divorce story according to Morrison and talia herself notes that what she's about to do next the detective is never going to forgive her for and yet she goes ahead.

After damian is killed Bruce still appears to have feeling for her [making out with her instead of arresting her and appearing to break down when she's shot] despite the horrid thing's she's done while she's more concerned with her plans.

Priest talia like Morrison's was once in love but has long since fallen out of love and both talia have a warped concept of what caring means when it comes to Damian.

Tomasi's Talia cared but she cared more about Damian the future Alexander. the little perfect weapon she created not Damian the child which is consistent with Priest's and Morrison's talia.

Okay, I got this from a Talia fan on Tumblr analyzing how she's portrayed in Rebirth.

There's no direct mention of the conception but Bruce did have feelings for her. It's just more muted compared to their classic original relationship because it's framed by Tom King who portrays Catwoman as Batman's true love since their first meeting. So the context is Batman and Catwoman had a lot of tension and breaks, and in between that, she found other people and he found other people. One of these other people is Talia.

From Talia herself, she fell for Batman because she's starving for love. Her father gave her training from hell and she has no friends, only subordinates, and from that Al Ghul indoctrination, she considers only Batman worthy to be his equal.

So yeah. It's consensual and it was with love. Even with an Al Ghul indoctrination surrounding her, her feelings are hers. Which is why it's even more painful to her after Batman rejected her, so she went back to full Al Ghul mode.

[CPSparkles]

In Robin Rises Bruce recounts the events of the night Damian was conceived and they were in love [at least he was] and it was consensual.

I like Morrison's thoughts on talia. he believes that Talia is way out of Bruce's league. She is operating on a whole different level. I didn't however like that he changed Damian's conception so I was glad when Tomasi retconed it.

Plus I think relationships with villains just makes a mockery of everything Batman and his allies are fighting for.

Bruce has had many loves and his true love depends on the writers but I prefer him with the law abiding ones not the Kleptomaniacs or World Domination cultists.