What was Superman like before John Byrne?

[Netherman14]

I CREATED SUPERMAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


On Earth 899....

[Netherman14]

No no no no no no no, you're both wrong. I clearly have it right, Superman was created by Max Landis!

BTW, I've finally read American Alien as a trade. and, I apologize to Superlad in advance, but. I didn't like it, it's not that good in my eyes.

[Kuwagaton]

I was a little confused because it's a loaded question. Is this asking about Superman comics or the character? Is the input to be required from someone who experienced those pre-crisis years?

The thing is, for every outstanding Superman comic there are about four that are rather plain. In the seventies, the plain comics tended to be better than the plain comics from other decades, but they still included unmemorable moments for the character. As a collector it's good because you can skip a whole year and not worry about missing anything, but also bad because you can build up such an unmemorable collection.

I'm hoping that once everything is settled the main continuity Superman is never completely rebooted again. However I doubt DC will ever be able to resist the allure of the shiny red reboot "easy button"

It's easy to feel like someone isn't doing enough when it's not your bottom line. By industry accounts, the sales between the fall of '86 and the fall of '92 were some of the strongest Superman has reported in our lifetimes, more impressive when taking the peak of other comic characters into account.

[Slaughter]

A tangent: I wonder if the Byrne reboot taking the emphasis off some pre-crisis elements haven't been actually been good to them, and therefore Superman?

Not to mention the authors after that had to, well, innovate. Can you imagine the Cyborg-Superman in pre-crisis?

[paurru]

Kuwagaton, the question isn't that hard fir you to understand. It's a simple question.


Pretty much both Superman himself as a character and Action Comics.



What was Superman like before John Byrne came around with the Man of Steel comic

[Kuwagaton]

What I'm saying is that it's a pretty broad question. Technically speaking, "before John Byrne" is just about fifty years across at least a half dozen titles, not counting all of the specials and guest appearances. But the post above would be my general answer.

A tangent: I wonder if the Byrne reboot taking the emphasis off some pre-crisis elements haven't been actually been good to them, and therefore Superman?

Not to mention the authors after that had to, well, innovate. Can you imagine the Cyborg-Superman in pre-crisis?

It's pretty hard to even imagine the change up not taking place. I mean, there could be a Cyborg Superman, but it'd be a little strange if we still had the metallic Brainiac, for example.

[paurru]

Well whatever. That didn't help at all kuwagaton

[Zero Hunter]

No doubt the character need a change.He was growing stale. So, anyone who says "Pre-Crisis Superman was all kittens and rainbows until big bad Byrne ruined him forever "is wrong. There needed to be a new angle and a new fresh take to keep things interesting and something new to launch stories from.

However, a hard reboot that (for a time) took 48-25 years worth of stories and comics and tossed them in the trash wasn't the answer and created a precedent that the character can't seem to shake. I.E....if the character finds him in the rut creatively, don't do the hard work of utilizing what's there and just go in a new direction..No..Just toss everything out and start over! That mindset is more damaging to Superman than anything and continues to be. Yes, even now to an extent.

There really was nothing wrong with the character as he was that a couple years of good writing, paired with a new art style that wasn't Curt Swan (whom I love, but that was the main thing dating Supes at the time) would have fixed things and likely would have put Superman in a much better place and wouldn't have opened the pandoras box of endless reboots/deboots.

The idea of Clark Kent coming more to the fore and his attatchment to Krypton lessening wasn't bad in of itself,but the vehicle by which they got there was the issue. I mean Pre-Crisis Supes was already undergoing a seizmic shift in status quo even without Byrne, Kara had died. The Phantom Zone was destroyed by Mxy. Krypto and the Kandorians were off in deep space and out of Supes life. His life as Clark Kent was slowly becoming more important as he was in a relationship with Lana at the time as his connections to his home world were all going away. Most of the stage was set for a more natural change of direction where Supes was more earthbound and his cast and world being better developed and realized. Things like bringing back the Kents, Superman's powers bring reduced and Lex being changed from less an open criminal to mogul could have been handled in story. Mike Carlin had said in the past that 95 percent of the stories they did could have easily fit with the Pre-Crisis Superman. I imagine if they had we wouldn't see the character on the shakey ground he keeps finding himself on.

I'm hoping that once everything is settled the main continuity Superman is never completely rebooted again. However I doubt DC will ever be able to resist the allure of the shiny red reboot "easy button"

I think one of the biggest problems Superman has had since the first Crisis is latter writer want to bring back those weird and goofy elements that Crisis stripped away. Guys who are silver age fanboys keep sneaking things back in until over time Superman is right back to how he was before and the higher ups feel the need to reboot him again. Silver and Golden age fanboyism is the biggest enemy Superman will ever have since writers want to bring back the things they read as kids instead of actually doing anything new.

[manofsteel1979]

I think one of the biggest problems Superman has had since the first Crisis is latter writer want to bring back those weird and goofy elements that Crisis stripped away. Guys who are silver age fanboys keep sneaking things back in until over time Superman is right back to how he was before and the higher ups feel the need to reboot him again. Silver and Golden age fanboyism is the biggest enemy Superman will ever have since writers want to bring back the things they read as kids instead of actually doing anything new.

Well, if they hadn't taken those things out of continiuity in the first place, I think the writters who felt like they needed to " fix" Supes by bringing that stuff back wouldn't likely have gone out of their way to bring that stuff back. It would have been acknowledged as part of the character then, and still as part of the mythos, but the need to bring it back NOW would have been much less of a priority.

Take for instance Batman. Yeah, they stopped directly referencing all of that goofy stuff , but they never specifically removed it from continiuity or made it a mission to do so. Batman's reboots have always been soft. Thus, when Morrison slipped them back in, it ultimately wasn't a big deal and didn't impede forward momentum. Superman's reboots have always been hard, especially since 1986, and thus why things have been messy for the most part.

Characters like Superman work best when they are allowed to naturally evolve over time and not through forced regression through reboots and forced evolution, which was a problem with Nuperman, and in a way, even now with Jon and Superdad, even though I am enjoying the stories , I see that if not handled right, there could be problems in the near future.

[durabill]

Kuwagaton, the question isn't that hard fir you to understand. It's a simple question.


Pretty much both Superman himself as a character and Action Comics.



What was Superman like before John Byrne came around with the Man of Steel comic

To me the stories were boring and I'm sorry Curt Swan/ Gil Kane lovers but the artwork wasn't appealing.

There were some stories like Superman 388 (The Kid who played Superman) that I loved, but for the most part they were few and far between.

After the movie success of Superman the movie and Superman II, I tried to desperately get into the Superman comics but they didn't keep my interest at all.

Only until Crises On Infinite Earths and the crossovers in the Superman titles did I find the stories fun again.

Then came the revamp and for the most part I've been loving Superman comics ever since.

[paurru]

Same for me. Back then I only got introduced to the Superman comics or even DC by watching the original three Christopher Reeve movies and some of the Man of Steel limited series. I was more into Marvel and NOW Comics when I was a little kid.



I really didnt know what Superman was like as a hero and didn't know what the stories were like in the older Action Comics during the 1980s.

[Kuwagaton]

Contrary to many of the opinions I've seen over the last few years, I guess with enough distance from it, that's the impression I get from old reader feedback. A lot of fans who didn't really advocate a reboot were pleased with the results and a ton of people poured in.

[RedWhiteAndBlueSupes]

Well Im pretty much asking what Superman comic books were like late 1970s and early 1980s before John Byrne's Superman Man of Steel.

Pretty much Superman stuff from 1980 to 1985.

Pretty great if you ask me, I wasn't born then, but going back and reading it is definitely recommended, he didn't use his powers in such gaudy ways as the late golden/early silver age supes. Supes rogues gallery was also at it's best during this period, with everyone from Bizarro to Brianiac/later robot version, and Luthor at their top game for sure. Supes actually quit writing news articles and started working anchoring TV news, actually becoming kind of well known in Metropolis, and the planet cast was more heavily featured. He already had somewhat of a powercreep setting in from the "DC Explosion" era of the 70's. He was already trending in the "post crisis" direction. Stories like "For the Man who has everything" and "Sandman Saga" are highlights as well as the first appearance of Gen Zod, they're is a story from early 1980's where Darksied replaces earth 2 with Apokolips, uhh I forget the name but it happened in JSA. Anyway Great time for Supes

[BeefBourguignon]

I think one of the biggest problems Superman has had since the first Crisis is latter writer want to bring back those weird and goofy elements that Crisis stripped away. Guys who are silver age fanboys keep sneaking things back in until over time Superman is right back to how he was before and the higher ups feel the need to reboot him again. Silver and Golden age fanboyism is the biggest enemy Superman will ever have since writers want to bring back the things they read as kids instead of actually doing anything new.

Yes, I am in complete agreement.

To me the stories were boring and I'm sorry Curt Swan/ Gil Kane lovers but the artwork wasn't appealing.

There were some stories like Superman 388 (The Kid who played Superman) that I loved, but for the most part they were few and far between.

After the movie success of Superman the movie and Superman II, I tried to desperately get into the Superman comics but they didn't keep my interest at all.

Only until Crises On Infinite Earths and the crossovers in the Superman titles did I find the stories fun again.

Then came the revamp and for the most part I've been loving Superman comics ever since.

This is more or less my experience, as well. I didn't find it boring, but I was not "hooked" until after the revamp (which is what I remember we used to call it before reboot became more popular term). By the time of the Matrix and Exile saga, I was a die hard fan and did not want to miss a single issue!

[Ascended]

@ paurru;

Well, it depends on what era of pre-Crisis you're talking about.

Continuity wasn't as big a thing back then, and a lot happened over those fifty years. And you'll take my comments with a grain of salt; it's been a while since I read a lot of older material and my memory isn't infallible. Nor is my knowledge absolute.

But all of pre-Crisis has to be read with a few admissions in mind. This is old stuff. Generally, it doesnt age well (comics rarely do) and you gotta keep in mind the sensibilities of the time. Sometimes it seems really odd, or even offensive. For example (and this is one of the most extreme ones I can recall), there was a point where Superman told us it was okay to "slap a Jap." And it was perfectly fine if Superman took a woman who was being uppity, put her over his knee, and gave her a good spanking to straighten her out.

Golden Age stuff is simple, straight forward, and bare-bones. A lot of these stories were done-in-ones told in about half the page space you see today. The morality is simple, the solutions simpler, and usually achieved by an "eye for an eye" methodology. A foreman is forcing laborers to work in unsafe conditions? Superman makes him do the dangerous work for a day, foreman is scared out of his wits and amends his ways to avoid pissing Superman off more. Superman's a macho, chest puffing, man's man and he's not afraid to throw his weight around. He's also basically a soft socialist in a lot of ways, and a champion for the oppressed. But as America drew closer to entering WWII, Clark starts shifting focus and going after spies, axis weapons dealers, and so forth.

Pretty soon he's a patriotic, flag-waving symbol of American grit and power. And post-War, things start to get silly. A lot of the classic pre-Crisis elements, like Supergirl, Kandor, Krypto, and a lot of stuff best left forgotten (like Comet the Super-Horse) show up in this era and Clark largely leaves human concerns behind him and starts dealing with alien invasions and other dimensions and time travel, and his powers creep up until he's eventually got every power you can imagine and is blowing out galaxies like candles. I'm not crazy familiar with this era, but the stories I've read tend to be bigger in scope, occasionally using proxies to tackle real world issues, and remain fairly straight forward and simple and focused on safe, committee approved entertainment for kids. Saturday morning cartoon type stuff. Random PSA's included.

When we get into the Bronze Age, we sort of hit a sweet spot. All those wild big ideas are still in play, the more ridiculous stuff has been quietly put on a shelf, and better characterization and development were being built. You see Clark start a new job as a news caster, and a lot of big classic stories hit, such as "For the Man Who Has Everything." The tone and characters were starting to move towards a direction that Byrne would dive head-first into with his reboot, taking that subtle shift and building a whole new status quo around in the extreme.

Or so my faulty memory tells me.

No doubt the character need a change.He was growing stale. So, anyone who says "Pre-Crisis Superman was all kittens and rainbows until big bad Byrne ruined him forever "is wrong. There needed to be a new angle and a new fresh take to keep things interesting and something new to launch stories from.

Excellent post man. Cut it down here to save space, but damn fine post.

Not to mention the authors after that had to, well, innovate. Can you imagine the Cyborg-Superman in pre-crisis?

I can totally see Henshaw happening to pre-Crisis Superman.