Superman never got an Optimus Prime moment.

[Lokimaru]

Optimus Prime turned the tide of a major battle and went down fighting his greatest enemy who cheated and still lost. Superman went down fighting a new guy basically designed to kill him which I think cheapened his death. Optimus is one of the few leader type characters that still commands respect, in all his incarnations. Superman has to be shown a certain way with a specific personality to get any respect at all. How did Optimus tracend the boring goodguy Leader stereotype? Hell even Bay can't tarnish Primes" status.

[Miles To Go]

Prime is basically Abe Linchon according to writer David Wise.

[Adekis]

Please- As much as nobody messes with Lincoln, Lincoln held some beliefs common to his day which we would find unfortunate at best. We wish Lincoln was as great a sentient being as Optimus Prime.

Anyway, Prime has that "old soldier, tired commander" thing going on in a way that Superman never can except in Elseworld stories. I think that's what gives Optimus Prime the automatic respect OP's talking about. He's fought wars long and hard and he's lost a lot of friends. Superman adheres to a status quo which means he cannot have suffered that kind of loss in a permanent way. You can kill his parents, you can kill his homeworld, maybe you can kill a few especially disposable friends, like Pete Ross or a Legionnaire or two- but you can never put Superman into Optimus Prime's position.

This is a reason I don't think Superman should be treated as that kind of old, war-battered leader among super-heroes. Wonder Woman can fill that role so much better, whereas Superman (in my opinion) makes a better classic Jim T. Kirk. He's young, he's passionate, he's simultaneously cool under fire and kind of a hothead.

[magha_regulus]

If the original Death of Superman arc hadn't happened and they went with a story like Our World's at War and killed him in an event like that, Superman would've have gotten the kind of Optimus Prime moment you're thinking of. They really need to show Superman inspiring the heroes and giving them faith.

[Frontier]

Now I'm suddenly imagining Peter Cullen's Optimus Prime from another dimension supplanting David Kaye's Prime in the Transformers Animated universe, only for it to turn out that Cullen's Prime is just a future version of Kaye's .

[Kuwagaton]

I forget who said it, maybe Chris Sims at ComicsAlliance, but the whole point of his conflicts with his regular foes is that they can't beat him. Having that happen would be too great a departure from where they are. Doomsday manages to break even in their famous fight, but then goes on to lose like the rest of them because Superman is too good to lose like that all over again.

They really need to show Superman inspiring the heroes and giving them faith.

Kon-el and Steel are two of the most popular characters from that decade.

[DochaDocha]

Optimus is more central a character to Transformers mythos than Superman is to DC. You could argue Optimus is more important to Transformers than Batman is to DC.

Also, Superman is one of those characters in which there's an effort, conscious or not, to make sure he doesn't look too good. This might apply less to comics, but I hear it all the time in other media when creators want to emphasize the things Superman can't do.

[Maxi]

Anyway, Prime has that "old soldier, tired commander" thing going on in a way that Superman never can except in Elseworld stories. I think that's what gives Optimus Prime the automatic respect OP's talking about. He's fought wars long and hard and he's lost a lot of friends.

I think the same goes for Captain America. He's a soldier like Optimus. That's why Superman gives a more boyscout vibe than him.

[Adekis]

Now I'm suddenly imagining Peter Cullen's Optimus Prime from another dimension supplanting David Kaye's Prime in the Transformers Animated universe, only for it to turn out that Cullen's Prime is just a future version of Kaye's .

I'd watch the heck out of that. You couldn't have Cullen's Prime be the one from G1 or Transformers Prime, but there's no reason why Kaye's Optimus couldn't just happen to sound like Cullen's "when he grows up".

Optimus is more central a character to Transformers mythos than Superman is to DC. You could argue Optimus is more important to Transformers than Batman is to DC.

That's true. Superman might be the root of the DCU, but he's not going to be there for every conflict that every character has, the world's too big for that. Helena Bertinelli doesn't need Superman there to help. Optimus' role is more like Mario in the Mario Universe. You can tell stories without him, but when you do he's immediately conspicuous by his absence.

Also, Superman is one of those characters in which there's an effort, conscious or not, to make sure he doesn't look too good. This might apply less to comics, but I hear it all the time in other media when creators want to emphasize the things Superman can't do.

That's true too, but I think we're getting to a point where more and more Superman fans are annoyed by that tendency. I mean when they made S:TAS in the '90s, they could have Superman go flying from every punch Lobo dishes out, but I think that's more and more irritating to more and more fans, so they're less likely to nerf him that way.

[Doctor Know]

They really need to show Superman inspiring the heroes and giving them faith.

Kon-el and Steel are two of the most popular characters from that decade.

Kon-El, Steel and the remnants of the JLI (from that era in the early 90s) were all inspired by Superman's heroic sacrifice in the Death of Superman, Reign of Superman and World Without Superman arcs.

Some others would be, Kimiyo Hoshi during COIE, Mon-El (way back on Superboy #18 1961), the original Legion of Superheroes of course (although Supes lost his connection with them after COIE 1985 and never really recovered a good relationship with them. Despite Johns revival of them post-Infinite Crisis).

Optimus is more central a character to Transformers mythos than Superman is to DC. You could argue Optimus is more important to Transformers than Batman is to DC.

Also, Superman is one of those characters in which there's an effort, conscious or not, to make sure he doesn't look too good. This might apply less to comics, but I hear it all the time in other media when creators want to emphasize the things Superman can't do.

I lean towards this being a conscious effort. I listed the above instances of Superman inspiring people. But then you look at Geoff Johns' works from 2005 and 2007, lampooning the standards DC advertises and states Superman stands for.





A big writer like Johns; who is now Chief Creative Officer at DC comics, producer for the DC shows (mainly Flash and Supergirl), a producer for the DCEU movies and was recently appointed as President of DC Entertainment, and Editor and Chief Dan Didio gave the green light on the above panels and corresponding stories. Making Superman look like a weak and foolish. I can't remember a single person or instance of Superman inspiring anyone during the New 52 and he was everywhere on those books.

Superman
Action Comics Superman
Batman/Superman
Superman/Wonder Woman
Justice League and Justice League of America (not the Amanda Waller team)

You look at the big arcs and events from that era.
Savage Dawn
Truth
Convergence
Doomed
Future's End
Trinity War
Unchained

You notice that Superman had nothing to do, but show up and punch things or be taken out of the action by the writers somehow. Like the Injustice League and Amazo Virus arcs when Lex joins the League. It's about Batman and Lex dueling personalities, rather than Superman engaging Lex. Batman saves the day with compassion against Jessica Cruz, and it's Bruce and Lex who solve the Amazo Virus problem. In fact, none of Johns' JL were about Superman.

This can't be on accident. The writers just don't seem to care to make Superman look good.

[Agent Z]

Optimus Prime turned the tide of a major battle and went down fighting his greatest enemy who cheated and still lost. Superman went down fighting a new guy basically designed to kill him which I think cheapened his death.

Why? They both died fighting villains. Who cares what type of villains they were? I mean, I don't claim to particularly like Doomsday all that much, but Optimus' death was no more dignified, especially when you recall they killed him off because his toy wasn't selling.

Optimus is one of the few leader type characters that still commands respect, in all his incarnations.

As does Superman.

. How did Optimus tracend the boring goodguy Leader stereotype?

What makes you think he ever did?

[Agent Z]

Kon-El, Steel and the remnants of the JLI (from that era in the early 90s) were all inspired by Superman's heroic sacrifice in the Death of Superman, Reign of Superman and World Without Superman arcs.

Some others would be, Kimiyo Hoshi during COIE, Mon-El (way back on Superboy #18 1961), the original Legion of Superheroes of course (although Supes lost his connection with them after COIE 1985 and never really recovered a good relationship with them. Despite Johns revival of them post-Infinite Crisis).




I lean towards this being a conscious effort. I listed the above instances of Superman inspiring people. But then you look at Geoff Johns' works from 2005 and 2007, lampooning the standards DC advertises and states Superman stands for.





A big writer like Johns; who is now Chief Creative Officer at DC comics, producer for the DC shows (mainly Flash and Supergirl), a producer for the DCEU movies and was recently appointed as President of DC Entertainment, and Editor and Chief Dan Didio gave the green light on the above panels and corresponding stories. Making Superman look like a weak and foolish. I can't remember a single person or instance of Superman inspiring anyone during the New 52 and he was everywhere on those books.

Superman
Action Comics Superman
Batman/Superman
Superman/Wonder Woman
Justice League and Justice League of America (not the Amanda Waller team)

You look at the big arcs and events from that era.
Savage Dawn
Truth
Convergence
Doomed
Future's End
Trinity War
Unchained

You notice that Superman had nothing to do, but show up and punch things or be taken out of the action by the writers somehow. Like the Injustice League and Amazo Virus arcs when Lex joins the League. It's about Batman and Lex dueling personalities, rather than Superman engaging Lex. Batman saves the day with compassion against Jessica Cruz, and it's Bruce and Lex who solve the Amazo Virus problem. In fact, none of Johns' JL were about Superman.

This can't be on accident. The writers just don't seem to care to make Superman look good.

I don't care for the first image, but the second one is pretty spot on even if it's coming from Luthor.

Here's the thing; Superman might be more impressive than the helpless muggles of the DCU. But next to any other cape he really isn't all that special. When writers try to elevate him above all the others in universe it becomes the ultimate form of fanboyism. Morrison and Waid are particularly bad about this. Zack Snyder has many flaws, but even he didn't have Superman fight a guy named after a false god from the Bible. That level of pretentiousness cannot be matched.

In general, treating Superman or Batman or any kind of superhero like some kind of paragon is pretty much were we ended up now as sooner or later someone was going to see if they hold up without the usual cushions. Spoiler alert: they don't.

[Korath]

Optimus is more central a character to Transformers mythos than Superman is to DC. You could argue Optimus is more important to Transformers than Batman is to DC.

Also, Superman is one of those characters in which there's an effort, conscious or not, to make sure he doesn't look too good. This might apply less to comics, but I hear it all the time in other media when creators want to emphasize the things Superman can't do.

Well, I think it is mainly because Superman can do almost anything with ease, really, which doesn't help to create an interesting and engaging story for the caual movie goer/reader/etc. . It's almost as if his creators had given him so much power that, well, he hadn't much left in term of foes or hardships able to actually affect him directly. For all his strength, Optimus is a leader among his species, he is greater than most of the Transformers, but still limited in the way they are. He is also clearly a leader. Superman can be an inspiration, but for me he is fundamentally lacking the ability to lead others because of how powerful he is. That's where Batman's relationship with Superman becomes important : the Bat "ground" Superman, he reminds him of what peoples can't do. Or at least, that's how I see this relation.

[Kuwagaton]

I don't care for the first image, but the second one is pretty spot on even if it's coming from Luthor.

Here's the thing; Superman might be more impressive than the helpless muggles of the DCU. But next to any other cape he really isn't all that special. When writers try to elevate him above all the others in universe it becomes the ultimate form of fanboyism. Morrison and Waid are particularly bad about this. Zack Snyder has many flaws, but even he didn't have Superman fight a guy named after a false god from the Bible. That level of pretentiousness cannot be matched.

In general, treating Superman or Batman or any kind of superhero like some kind of paragon is pretty much were we ended up now as sooner or later someone was going to see if they hold up without the usual cushions. Spoiler alert: they don't.

Haha, well said. But regarding Last Son, I don't think Luthor is supposed to be right. It's a pretty bad argument.

[Agent Z]

Haha, well said. But regarding Last Son, I don't think Luthor is supposed to be right. It's a pretty bad argument.

What's bad about it?