The Phoenix Force vs. free will

[Shellhead]

(Disclosure: I admit that I ignored Marvel's mutant titles for a very long time. Maybe three years after Byrne quit the X-Men, I gave up until the midway through the Morrison run. Since then, I followed the Whedon run and stuck with Astonishing for a few trades after that. I caught a decent chunk of Kieron Gillen's X-run, including half of AvX, and I recently knocked off the first five trades of the Bendis run on Uncanny.)

There have been a number of hosts of the Phoenix Force over the years, and one recurring element seems to be some degree of loss of self-control. From what I have seen, it seems that the Phoenix Force is particularly effective at tapping into certain emotions like passion or rage, and driving the host into extreme actions as a result. So when Cyclops ran wild with the Phoenix Force and [spoiler]killed Professor X[/spoiler], it seemed like most of his fellow mutants were quick to hold him directly responsible without any allowance for possible influence by the Phoenix Force. Even when Rachel Grey pointed out that Scott was probably being controlled by the Phoenix Force, her teammates just ignored that comment and continued to hate on Scott as though he simply acted in cold blood.

Are they being unfair? Or do hosts of the Phoenix generally maintain self-control and therefore Scott just did what he wanted.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

He had a choice.

WPotC had to talk his dumb ass down.

[Alan2099]

Keep in mind, Phoenix tends to be reconnected everytime it appears and I still don't understand that whole Jean Grey was always Phoenix, even before the Phoenix ever met her stuff, but USUALLY the Phoenix doesn't possess people as much as it does intoxicate them. They get drunk off their own emotions and keep pushing to be MORE than what they're currently feeling.

There was a time when Phoenix took over Rachael's body but that's because her conscious mind was kinda sorta comatose at the time.

Cyclops ... he was just doing what he's been doing, except he was doing it MORE. He was still following his "I'm the only one that can be right and be in charge" mindset that he'd had for years and was still going after the same people he had already viewed as enemies. he was just going about it in a more extreme way than before.

[yet another]

I think the brain trust behind AvX compared possessing the Phoenix Force to being jacked up on cocaine or some similar drug.

So you would have free will in principle, but not exactly be your normal rational self.

[SpiderClops]

Keep in mind, Phoenix tends to be reconnected everytime it appears and I still don't understand that whole Jean Grey was always Phoenix, even before the Phoenix ever met her stuff, but USUALLY the Phoenix doesn't possess people as much as it does intoxicate them. They get drunk off their own emotions and keep pushing to be MORE than what they're currently feeling.

There was a time when Phoenix took over Rachael's body but that's because her conscious mind was kinda sorta comatose at the time.

Cyclops ... he was just doing what he's been doing, except he was doing it MORE. He was still following his "I'm the only one that can be right and be in charge" mindset that he'd had for years and was still going after the same people he had already viewed as enemies. he was just going about it in a more extreme way than before.

This. There's way too much inconsistecies and retcons when it comes to Phoenix. Phoenix is coming in the new Jean Grey solo, it will again be most likely retconned. Hosts have free will only when the writers want them to be, other times they don't.

You're lucky you didn't start this thread on the X-Books forum Shellhead.

[Shellhead]

You're lucky you didn't start this thread on the X-Books forum Shellhead.

I knew that I would get rational answers here, and expected BSC there.

So, what are we to conclude from Scott's actions? Did he choose to kill Xavier, or did the Phoenix choose? If Scott chose, then why are angry mutants like Iceman just yelling at Scott instead of taking him down and bringing him to justice? If the Phoenix Force chose, why are they giving Scott so much grief for something done against his will?

[Anarchist]

The Phoenix Force amplifies emotions, especially negative or passionate ones.

Imagine you have a very bad day and a person annoys you. Most of us certainly have thought more than once 'I would so like to kill this guy!', but off course would never actually follow through with it.
The Phoenix Force would remove this restraint.

But it also depends on the strength of the user.
Afair, it was at least indirectly stated once that only Omega Muants are capable of fully controling the Phoenix.

[Anarchist]

So, what are we to conclude from Scott's actions? Did he choose to kill Xavier, or did the Phoenix choose? If Scott chose, then why are angry mutants like Iceman just yelling at Scott instead of taking him down and bringing him to justice? If the Phoenix Force chose, why are they giving Scott so much grief for something done against his will?

Honestly, the answer to much of this is:
The writers want us to hate Scott.

Seriously, didn't Hopeless recently literally compare Scott to Hitler in All-New?

It's just a blatant case of official character dislike, which naturally has the exact opposite reaction in the fanbase.

It also shows what a bunch of hypocrite people like Wolverine in particular are, defending Jean Grey but condemning Scott.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

I hate everything equally. But at least Wolverine didn't kill Xavier.

[Beadle]

Honestly, the answer to much of this is:
The writers want us to hate Scott.

Seriously, didn't Hopeless recently literally compare Scott to Hitler in All-New?

It's just a blatant case of official character dislike, which naturally has the exact opposite reaction in the fanbase.

And I think it's ironic because I suspect it started around the time that James Marsden jumped from the X-Men movies to Superman.

Marvel hate what Fox are doing to the X-Men, so they're prepared to metaphorically burn the X-Men as a property, but they hate DC more so they're going to evacuate their bowels all over Cyclops before they burn him.

There's no point doing the same to people like Dum Dum Dugan or Howard Stark because the former hardly ever appears anyway and the latter's death predates the Marvel Age.

It also shows what a bunch of hypocrite people like Wolverine in particular are, defending Jean Grey but condemning Scott.

Scott would need the Red Punch Force to come out of his head as hair rather than out of his eyes before Logan gives him any credit. And then Logan would try to mate with him.

He'd bang a red squirrel if they weren't so bloody rare.

Ever wonder why there's no orang utans left in Canada?

Bub.

[Anarchist]

And I think it's ironic because I suspect it started around the time that James Marsden jumped from the X-Men movies to Superman.

Marvel hate what Fox are doing to the X-Men, so they're prepared to metaphorically burn the X-Men as a property, but they hate DC more so they're going to evacuate their bowels all over Cyclops before they burn him.

There's no point doing the same to people like Dum Dum Dugan or Howard Stark because the former hardly ever appears anyway and the latter's death predates the Marvel Age.

I mean the whole problem is, everyone always says that Scott is the devil himself, but he never acts like this.
After Secret Wars (2015), Scott died off-screen and everybody talked about some mysterious horrible event, which turned the world against mutantkind and made Cyclops the epitome of evil in both the humans and mutants mind.
Over a year and more later, it was finally revealed in the Death of X-Storyline.....and the supposed 'horrible' deed was nothing but trying to stop the Terrigen cloud which horribly poisoned the mutants. Apparently this cloud is so holy for the Inhumans that trying to dispel it is akin to Genocide. And the funny thing is, Scott didn't even do it, he died of the effects of the poison way before, it was a mental projection by Emma Frost.

maybe Marvel should just take the damn hint already that Scott doesn't work as a villain.

I hate everything equally. But at least Wolverine didn't kill Xavier.

No, he only killed Northstar.
And tried to kill Hope and Wiccan :P


Aaanyway, only people strong enough to fully control the Phoenix can be held accountable for their actions with it. For everybody else, it is like acting under drugs.

[Alan2099]

So, what are we to conclude from Scott's actions? Did he choose to kill Xavier, or did the Phoenix choose?

It's basically just like Cyclops getting drunk and loosing his temper. he might not have really meant to do it, but he did kinda MEAN to do it.

I hate everything equally. But at least Wolverine didn't kill Xavier.

When Wolverine became Phoenix, Spider-man talked him down.

When Cyclops became Phoenix he took over the world.

Some people are just mean drunks and some people just cannot handle their cosmic powers.

maybe Marvel should just take the damn hint already that Scott doesn't work as a villain.

Scott doesn't work as a villain, but Marvel keeps trying to push him that way and has ever since he kicked Xavier out of his own house and basically declared himself master of all mutants. In that time Scott's just became increasingly brutal, racist, and jaded, taking more and more of the bad character qualities from magneto and Emma Frost and none of the good ones. Yet, it never feels like real character development. It feels more like Cyclops, in his thirties, is just finally going into his rebellious teenage phase.

[Anarchist]

I thought it worked great, as it was a mental breakdown after his race was basically decimated. Also, honestly, Xavier was so shady and manipulative, he kinda deserved getting kicked out. I don't mind his more brutal/ruthless side, he works great as an Anti-Hero, he just doesn't work as a VILLAIN.

Especially because it comes off as pretty ridiculous when people in-universe try to condemn him, since there are other people who have done FAR worse and are still unanimously accepted on the side of the good (like Red Hulk).

EDIT: But since we are basically discussing characters now, I think this isn't really rumble material anymore.

[Huntsman Spider]

I thought it worked great, as it was a mental breakdown after his race was basically decimated. Also, honestly, Xavier was so shady and manipulative, he kinda deserved getting kicked out. I don't mind his more brutal/ruthless side, he works great as an Anti-Hero, he just doesn't work as a VILLAIN.

Especially because it comes off as pretty ridiculous when people in-universe try to condemn him, since there are other people who have done FAR worse and are still unanimously accepted on the side of the good (like Red Hulk).

EDIT: But since we are basically discussing characters now, I think this isn't really rumble material anymore.

Which just makes the Avengers look like filthy hypocrites, in retrospect, especially since it took Doc Green Hulk depowering Red Hulk to make him actually pay for his crimes.

[Iron Fist]

I always considered the phoenix force to be like a plea of insanity, you can't be held accountable for things that happened while the PF is amping your emotions to a 100.