Is there a way to integrate the clay-brought-to-life & Zeus origins?

[Agent Z]

Or to put it as it is, we know Heracles kills monsters, we dont know what else he was doing. But we also know that the King of Atlantis evidently didn't think it was a huge loss if Heracles was lost with the Giantborn... that ofcourse may be more of a sign of Atlantean notions of supremacy over air-breathers, but it's also possible they knew Heracles wasn't worth keeping outside of monster fighting.

Until we’re told otherwise, we have no reason to believe he wasn’t a hero. Speculation is all well and good, but at the end of the day we have to go with what it is on the page.

I would ask which women he has abused as such firstly? Because as far as I can see, he doesn't beat Hera or the others, he is simply negligent about them after he's gotten what he wanted. Does that count as abuse?

He raped Hera which forced her into marriage and he once hung her by her feet as punishment when she did something to piss him off. There are also at least three instances in the Lliad when he threatens her with physical abuse
https://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/arts/..._the_iliad.pdf

Also we may have to consider that back then when Zeus took power, it wasn't thought of as a wrong or bad thing that Zeus was in charge, it was just the way things were and everyone was happy with it.

Where they happy with it or they just couldn’t do anything about it? There’s plenty of stories about mortals being pissed with the gods.

And lets not forget that Zeus is the reason the Olympians didn't all end up as Chronus' lunch.

Given the crap the Olympians ended up doing, some would say them getting ingested by Cronos may not have been entirely a bad thing.

It didn't have to mention the word love, the description and depiction is all thats needed to show that it was what happened from Hippolyta's perspective.

Hippolyta’s perspective and what actually happened are two different things.

[CRaymond]

Hippolyta's perspective:

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[Agent Z]

Hippolyta's perspective:

tumblr_m5cwsabOjk1qjcq1co1_500.jpg

Not sure what your point is.

[CRaymond]

Not sure what your point is.

Unless you want to build alternative facts about "what actually happened" between Zeus and Hippolyta, all we have to go by is the queen's record of the event. It's fairly obvious from the art and text that they challenged each other, battled, and eventually chose to submit to each other in a sex act. I don't get the sense that Hippolyta felt anything other than lust.

[Vanguard-01]

It didn't have to mention the word love, the description and depiction is all thats needed to show that it was what happened from Hippolyta's perspective.

I read the same pages you read. I never interpreted it as a love story. I saw two people rutting like animals, knowing full well what would happen if they were discovered.

Once again, if Azz was trying to convey a love story, he didn't do a very good job of it. Show, don't tell, and definitely don't just assume that your audience can read your mind.

Hera did not have the option of killing the others because they had simply become too powerful for her to overcome in anything but a prolonged engagement, something Zeus would stop her from completing. And thats the other thing, Hera attacks them when they are young and when they are weak, she doesn't confront them when they can actually fight back. Likewise, I don't see why she would relent in the cases like Milan, Cassandra or Lennox had she found them at another time.

She doesn't confront them when they can fight back because that's when they've actually become gods and are now protected by Zeus' laws. She attacked them when she could get away with it and stopped attacking them once she couldn't.

She didn't go after Milan because he was already basically living in a Hell of his own making. Lennox, I believe, specifically mentioned that he was very good at laying low and avoiding Hera's notice. Cassandra? She's the only real unknown. Why didn't Hera take her out? No idea for certain. Best guess? Like Lennox, Cassandra figured out how to fly under Hera's radar for the most part. Siracca sure didn't, and Hera murdered her for it.

The fact that Zeus' kids get good at hiding from Hera doesn't mean Hera will never go after them. And even if Hippolyta was utterly sure Diana could escape Hera's wrath, Hera was well-known for being petty enough to harm innocent bystanders, so the Amazons were still at risk.

You mean aside from the time right before they had to fight off the First Born and his army. They didn't show adoration for her there either.

She had just punished them for something over which they had no control. Heck, the Amazons were probably pretty mad at her because she punished them for Diana's birth. Since they hated Diana themselves, I imagine they were quite unhappy with being punished for something they wished had also never happened.

To some women. She knew well enough that if it remained secret, then nothing would happen. And from her end of the scales, nothing leaked... what did leak was Zeus getting drunk and telling Strife.

In the myths, not a single one of Zeus' lovers escaped Hera's wrath completely.

And even still? Hippolyta had no idea her plan would work. She was still gambling the future of herself, her child, and her people on "Well, if absolutely NOTHING goes wrong, everything will be fine." That's still a huge gamble, considering the consequences if anything DID go wrong.

Zeus is more in the wrong than Hippolyta is.

If you did wrong, you did wrong. The fact that someone else did something "more wrong" doesn't excuse what you did. If you're an accessory to murder, you're still a criminal and deserve to be punished. The fact that someone else actually did the murdering just means that said individual deserves and even harder punishment than you do.

Hippolyta is supposed to be a feminist. She knowingly betrayed another woman. A woman who had been good to her and her people, no less. She knew full well that if that other woman learned of her betrayal, she would suffer, as would virtually everyone else who was under her protection. She didn't just gamble with her own life. She gambled with thousands of other people's lives as well.

Also, what is it thats supposed to stop Hippolyta from going to bed with a man who fancies her if she chooses to do so despite the danger? She isn't married to anyone, there aren't Amazon laws that forbids it... what should stop her?

The fact that she KNOWS Hera won't limit her vengeance to just her if she ever finds out? Hippolyta can do whatever she wants with her own life, but when she endangers others through her selfishness, that's a problem.

And how about Hera doing something about Zeus instead of killing his mistress'... right before she stoned Hippolyta we even got to hear that Hera doesn't know why she is not enough for him.

Zola asked Hera the very same question you just did. Hera's response was stunned disbelief at the mere IDEA of rebelling against her husband and king. In Hera's perspective, she is supposed to be Zeus' faithful and dutiful wife. It is not the place of the Queen to challenge the authority of her King. In her mind, it is the fault of these other women for leading Zeus astray. Classic misogynist victim blaming endemic to the patriarchal system of which Hera and Zeus were a part.

[CRaymond]

Hippolyta is supposed to be a feminist. She knowingly betrayed another woman. A woman who had been good to her and her people, no less. She knew full well that if that other woman learned of her betrayal, she would suffer, as would virtually everyone else who was under her protection. She didn't just gamble with her own life. She gambled with thousands of other people's lives as well.

This is exactly why I like reveal. Hippolyta was Feminist before the idea of feminism existed. She lusted, rutted, messsed up, and wove an elaborate myth in order to save her daughter. Wonder Woman has a very literal secret origin --hidden under a creation myth.

Zola asked Hera the very same question you just did. Hera's response was stunned disbelief at the mere IDEA of rebelling against her husband and king. In Hera's perspective, she is supposed to be Zeus' faithful and dutiful wife. It is not the place of the Queen to challenge the authority of her King. In her mind, it is the fault of these other women for leading Zeus astray. Classic misogynist victim blaming endemic to the patriarchal system of which Hera and Zeus were a part.

Hera is my favorite goddess. She's so complicated. She married the wrong man, but clings to the fantasy that she can "get him back" if she figures him out. I mean, does she LOVE Zeus, or the marriage fantasy? Does she even acknowledge HIS bisexuality?

[SiegePerilous02]

Even if we discount the scenes between Hippolyta and Zeus as being nothing more than lust on her part, the scene where Hermes tells Zola that Zeus inspires an uncontrollable lust in the women he chooses gives it a very uncomfortable undercurrent. Is Hippolyta even in control of her own actions here? What thoughts are hers and what thoughts are the ones Zeus placed in her head? I know that was a source of controversy early on and Azzarello broke his silence to clarify that it wasn't rape, but I dunno. It can certainly come across that way, and Diana could be the product of romanticized rape at that. There's certainly nothing on the page to indicate love of any sort, definitely not on Zeus's part.

Zola asked Hera the very same question you just did. Hera's response was stunned disbelief at the mere IDEA of rebelling against her husband and king. In Hera's perspective, she is supposed to be Zeus' faithful and dutiful wife. It is not the place of the Queen to challenge the authority of her King. In her mind, it is the fault of these other women for leading Zeus astray. Classic misogynist victim blaming endemic to the patriarchal system of which Hera and Zeus were a part.

It's stuff like this that makes aspects of this run so frustrating, because that was a GREAT scene that ultimately didn't lead to a catharsis. Zeus gets to hold onto his throne and weasel his way out of responsibility for his actions, and the women just have to deal with it. Had Diana just punted the little demon seed into the pit along with the First Born and Hera claimed the throne for herself with no Zeus in her life dictating her actions, a lot of this would have been worth it.

[CRaymond]

It's stuff like this that makes aspects of this run so frustrating, because that was a GREAT scene that ultimately didn't lead to a catharsis. Zeus gets to hold onto his throne and weasel his way out of responsibility for his actions, and the women just have to deal with it. Had Diana just punted the little demon seed into the pit along with the First Born and Hera claimed the throne for herself with no Zeus in her life dictating her actions, a lot of this would have been worth it.

I'm on record saying I don't agree with several of the choices Azzarello made. The scene you mention between Hera and Hippolyta was SOOOO GOOD, and the rest of the run was bull compared to that setup. You're absolutely right about Zeus making a mess of women having to deal... but that's kinda the nature of the Patriarchy.

The elevation of Hera to the Queen of Olympus should have been the endgame for Diana's masterplan.

[Agent Z]

Even if we discount the scenes between Hippolyta and Zeus as being nothing more than lust on her part, the scene where Hermes tells Zola that Zeus inspires an uncontrollable lust in the women he chooses gives it a very uncomfortable undercurrent. Is Hippolyta even in control of her own actions here? What thoughts are hers and what thoughts are the ones Zeus placed in her head? I know that was a source of controversy early on and Azzarello broke his silence to clarify that it wasn't rape, but I dunno. It can certainly come across that way, and Diana could be the product of romanticized rape at that. There's certainly nothing on the page to indicate love of any sort, definitely not on Zeus's part.



It's stuff like this that makes aspects of this run so frustrating, because that was a GREAT scene that ultimately didn't lead to a catharsis. Zeus gets to hold onto his throne and weasel his way out of responsibility for his actions, and the women just have to deal with it. Had Diana just punted the little demon seed into the pit along with the First Born and Hera claimed the throne for herself with no Zeus in her life dictating her actions, a lot of this would have been worth it.

This is why Diana helping Athena take the throne in Rucka's original run and punching out Zeus in Simone's are two of my favorite WW moments of all time.

[Outside_85]

Until we’re told otherwise, we have no reason to believe he wasn’t a hero. Speculation is all well and good, but at the end of the day we have to go with what it is on the page.

And you are certain Heracles is actually a hero on those pages? Remember, the heroic qualities of Heracles is spoken by someone who has never met him and only ever heard of him through stories and legends. So why on Earth should him being a hero be any less speculative than attributing monstrous qualities to his character?

He raped Hera which forced her into marriage and he once hung her by her feet as punishment when she did something to piss him off. There are also at least three instances in the Lliad when he threatens her with physical abuse

Which is a different Zeus than then one we are discussing here. Also that instance of hanging her from her feet was because she had suckered Dionysus' mother into forcing Zeus to reveal his true face to her, which killed her.

Where they happy with it or they just couldn’t do anything about it? There’s plenty of stories about mortals being pissed with the gods.

And your point is? There will always be people who disagree with how things are being done.

Given the crap the Olympians ended up doing, some would say them getting ingested by Cronos may not have been entirely a bad thing.

Depends if you are an Olympian or not. Also if memory serves, the Titans weren't exactly cherubs either... mostly they were actually regarded as a more barbaric version of the Olympians and usually depicted as such.

Hippolyta’s perspective and what actually happened are two different things.

As she was one half of what was happening, no, her perspective of what is happening is the one that counts unless Zeus shows up to deny it.

Hippolyta's perspective:

Now you can show us the panels that built up to this page.

I read the same pages you read. I never interpreted it as a love story. I saw two people rutting like animals, knowing full well what would happen if they were discovered.

Once again, if Azz was trying to convey a love story, he didn't do a very good job of it. Show, don't tell, and definitely don't just assume that your audience can read your mind.

You read it very shallowly then, Hippolyta went to great lengths to explain to Diana she did what she did out of love, that Zeus had not raped her or otherwise been dishonest about it. But if rutting is all you care to see, then thats what you see.

He did show, it's right there on the pages for you to see, dont blame him if you refuse to do so.

She doesn't confront them when they can fight back because that's when they've actually become gods and are now protected by Zeus' laws. She attacked them when she could get away with it and stopped attacking them once she couldn't.

There aren't any laws. Who gave you this idea?
Diana is grown up and Hera attacks her. Lennox is grown up, and she would have attacked him if she found him. Same with Cassandra and Milan.
This is a question of power, nothing more. She even placed her bets on Zeus sorting out Apollo because she knew she wasn't powerful enough to do so on her own, especially not with Artemis at his side.

She didn't go after Milan because he was already basically living in a Hell of his own making. Lennox, I believe, specifically mentioned that he was very good at laying low and avoiding Hera's notice. Cassandra? She's the only real unknown. Why didn't Hera take her out? No idea for certain. Best guess? Like Lennox, Cassandra figured out how to fly under Hera's radar for the most part. Siracca sure didn't, and Hera murdered her for it.

The only reason Hera never came after those three is because she didn't know they existed.
As for how she finds out at all, well we know Zeus gets drunk and lets his mouth run occasionally to the wrong person. So who knows, maybe half the fatalities is down to Strife and good old fashioned palace intrigue?

The fact that Zeus' kids get good at hiding from Hera doesn't mean Hera will never go after them. And even if Hippolyta was utterly sure Diana could escape Hera's wrath, Hera was well-known for being petty enough to harm innocent bystanders, so the Amazons were still at risk.

Not like they weren't at risk from Olympian-caused fatalities anyways. Remember in Rucka's previous run? Hera kicked the entire island into the sea just because Zeus was taking a bit too long a look at Artemis.

She had just punished them for something over which they had no control. Heck, the Amazons were probably pretty mad at her because she punished them for Diana's birth. Since they hated Diana themselves, I imagine they were quite unhappy with being punished for something they wished had also never happened.

Oh we are back at this dead horse once more: "Everyone on Paradise Island hated Diana." Utter crap. The only ones who ever said anything of the sort was Aleka and her cronies, no one else... I can't tell you how tired I am of hearing that load of nonsense.
And it's not like the Amazons aren't aware that they can't trust the Olympians at the best of times.

In the myths, not a single one of Zeus' lovers escaped Hera's wrath completely.

But not all of them ended up dead. Leto for instance was only troubled in finding a place to give birth, that was pretty much all Hera did to her. But then again Leto was of Titan linage.

And even still? Hippolyta had no idea her plan would work. She was still gambling the future of herself, her child, and her people on "Well, if absolutely NOTHING goes wrong, everything will be fine." That's still a huge gamble, considering the consequences if anything DID go wrong.

And thats not a way you can live a life anyways. Because if you did that, you couldn't leave your house because you'd risk getting hit by a car.

If you did wrong, you did wrong. The fact that someone else did something "more wrong" doesn't excuse what you did. If you're an accessory to murder, you're still a criminal and deserve to be punished. The fact that someone else actually did the murdering just means that said individual deserves and even harder punishment than you do.

Then why are the 'accomplices' here the only ones getting punished? And for that matter, Hera is not the embodiment of any kind of justice, rightful retribution or vindication, so why is it permitted her to do these things without the likes of Dike or Nemesis coming down on her head?

Hippolyta is supposed to be a feminist. She knowingly betrayed another woman. A woman who had been good to her and her people, no less. She knew full well that if that other woman learned of her betrayal, she would suffer, as would virtually everyone else who was under her protection. She didn't just gamble with her own life. She gambled with thousands of other people's lives as well.

No she is not. You can cast her that way if you want, but there is nothing in any text or version that makes Hippolyta the Virgin Mary. Quite often in fact we have stories about Hippolyta's poor judgement. As for doing it to Hera, why is this a subject? Hera is just one of a number of deities to the Amazons, and not a particularly venerated one. Hera does not like the Amazons, and they do not like her, and thats right there in second issue.
And if anything, Hera is everything a feminist or otherwise empowered woman should despise or pity in another woman. She is the Olympian housewife, the 2nd of the house, the one who stays put despite knowing the bad her husband is doing to her, and she is vindictive against the other women... not Zeus. If Amazons were the Ancient Greeks idea of a horrible idea, then Hera is the ideal they'd like all women to be.

The fact that she KNOWS Hera won't limit her vengeance to just her if she ever finds out? Hippolyta can do whatever she wants with her own life, but when she endangers others through her selfishness, that's a problem.

Her people are warriors, and all of them utterly dedicated to her. Hippolyta went out and confronted Hera so she would spare them, but her people intervened anyways. All for one, one for all.

Zola asked Hera the very same question you just did. Hera's response was stunned disbelief at the mere IDEA of rebelling against her husband and king. In Hera's perspective, she is supposed to be Zeus' faithful and dutiful wife. It is not the place of the Queen to challenge the authority of her King. In her mind, it is the fault of these other women for leading Zeus astray. Classic misogynist victim blaming endemic to the patriarchal system of which Hera and Zeus were a part.

So because Hera is narrow-minded, that makes it ok for her to act this way? Hera is not a victim of anything other than her own perceptions.

[Vanguard-01]

I was about to do another full retort, but then I thought about your arguments.

Honestly? You're right. New 52 Hippolyta was NOT a feminist. Neither were ANY of the New 52 Amazons. The logic you present is almost certainly the logic Hippolyta used to justify her actions. I keep forgetting that New 52 Hippolyta was never intended to be anything like the Hippolyta I knew and loved.

If Azz wanted Hippolyta or the Amazons to be likeable and sympathetic, he would've given them likeable and sympathetic characteristics. He didn't, so clearly that wasn't his goal. Clearly he wanted to make the Amazons and Hippolyta unlikeable and unsympathetic and he actually thought that we, the fans, would actually enjoy this change. Clearly he was BADLY mistaken.

So yeah. I really should just stop holding the New 52 Amazons in general and New 52 Hippolyta in specific to the same standards as pre-Flashpoint Hippolyta and the Amazons. They are completely different characters. One I liked, the other I did not. Thankfully the one I didn't like is already gone, so this debate is pointless anyway. Here's hoping Rucka brings the Amazons and Hippolyta back to their Perez-era glory, where they had all kinds of flaws and foibles, yet still managed to be largely good and likeable characters.

[CRaymond]

There's a lot to love about Perez' Hippolyta. What did you like most about the character?

[Vanguard-01]

There's a lot to love about Perez' Hippolyta. What did you like most about the character?

TimothyLaskey already posted arguably her best moment on Post #58. Perez Hippolyta would never submit to Zeus and was willing to risk death to defy him in his attempt to rape Diana.

Perez Hippolyta was strong, kind, and a good mother to her daughter. She actually looked like a worthy successor to Marston's ideals.

[Aioros22]

[QUOTE=CRaymond;2636984]Aww yiss, Outside gets it. And I have no idea how to make it clear to those of you whose sexual philosophies are binary, transactional, and hierarchical. Hippolyta's gender is female. Her sexuality is power bottom. Her TYPE is chauvanist pig, and her GAME is anything you can do, I can do better. Herc and his dad are exactly the kind of guys whose myth perpetuates the patriarchy and view of women as commodity and beauty as their only metric.

There`s stories about Heracles that goes against the standard patriachial view. While I know you`re especifically talking about DCU Hercules, I`ll just leave that out.

[Outside_85]

I was about to do another full retort, but then I thought about your arguments.

Honestly? You're right. New 52 Hippolyta was NOT a feminist. Neither were ANY of the New 52 Amazons. The logic you present is almost certainly the logic Hippolyta used to justify her actions. I keep forgetting that New 52 Hippolyta was never intended to be anything like the Hippolyta I knew and loved.

To be honest, after I posted it, I was thinking that in a way Hippolyta is what I would expect the end goal of feminism would be. Understood as Hippolyta is in charge of herself, her life, her people and her own sexuality. No one commands her, no one belittles her and no one points out 'shes a woman'. The only one in the entire run who would have, was Orion and he was often punched to the ground for doing so.
You however, points to Hippolyta restraining herself because of a sisterhood between women. In highly a idealized world, that sisterhood might exist... but in the real world, and throughout most of WW's publication, it does not. It may have done under Marston, but in most recent years I dont think I've seen Hippolyta or Diana being surprised at the things women will do to each other... they know Circe and Hera after all.

If Azz wanted Hippolyta or the Amazons to be likeable and sympathetic, he would've given them likeable and sympathetic characteristics. He didn't, so clearly that wasn't his goal. Clearly he wanted to make the Amazons and Hippolyta unlikeable and unsympathetic and he actually thought that we, the fans, would actually enjoy this change. Clearly he was BADLY mistaken.

Well, I quite enjoyed the fact they felt real for once, but thats just me. As for unlikable... broad strokes I guess, especially if you focus on the negatives.

So yeah. I really should just stop holding the New 52 Amazons in general and New 52 Hippolyta in specific to the same standards as pre-Flashpoint Hippolyta and the Amazons. They are completely different characters. One I liked, the other I did not. Thankfully the one I didn't like is already gone, so this debate is pointless anyway. Here's hoping Rucka brings the Amazons and Hippolyta back to their Perez-era glory, where they had all kinds of flaws and foibles, yet still managed to be largely good and likeable characters.

Thing is you hold them to different standards regardless. You've forgotten Perez's Amazons were the same Amazons who put Heracles' city to the torch and basically killed everyone inside of it. This is the same Hippolyta who had no problem with sending several Amazons to their deaths and decades of isolation if it meant keeping Diana safe. You are fine with one version committing mass murder, but get all upset when another version commits the same crime.