Superman issue #18 (aka Reborn part 1) (spoilers)

[DragonPiece]

I know Paul Dini is writing a back up in the next isssue, I wonder if it is gonna be about Oz telling Jon about his life before he came to the new 52 universe

[manofsteel1979]

I've not read the issue yet ( will tonight after work), but the thing with the photo album seems like it's setting up the idea that we will indeed have a completely new continiuity for Superman Post- Reborn that includes Jon in his past.

My gut feeling is all the pre 2000 stuff will be recanonized, a lot of the post 2000 stuff may be shuffled or erased completely and elements of Nuperman's origin and " year one" may become part of Supes ongoing back story, although I think Supes and Lois will likely remember everything, meaning the last few years of Supes and family as refugees remain canon, but only in a tenuous sense.

[bat39]

I felt it was a pretty powerful issue. The way I see it, its a more emotional and personal look at the ramifications of continuity changes/reboots from the perspective of the characters. Readers and writers alike have become pretty blase about the whole thing (Yup, omnipotent being messes with time...WHAM! These two characters are no longer married. That character is erased from existence. That character becomes a douche etc.) but this issue really drives home the very real emotional and psychological trauma that can result from characters actually being aware of the process.

On a thematic level, it fits in well with the overall Rebirth narrative, which is fundamentally the 'anti-reboot' in a sense. We see photographs depicting Pre-Flashpoint Superman history, as well as the son of Pre-Flashpoint Lois and Clark, literally being erased from existence - symbolic of a reboot. And now Superman's goal will be to bring Jon back and reclaim everything he's lost as a result of all this timey-wimeyness. In other words, Reborn is an arc about Superman taking on the ultimate villain - the reboot!

As an aside, did anyone else count the number of candles on the 'anniversary' cake? I counted 14 candles there. So its been 14 years since something. But 14 years since what I wonder? 14 years since Lois and Clark first met (unlikely under current circumstances)? 14 years since they got married (more likely - if they got stuck on Telos 3 years after they got married, spent 1 year on Telos, and then 10 years raising Jon)? The latter makes most sense to me right now. Which does mean that Clark and Lois are officially in their forties (since they first met when they were in their early 20's, and it was at least a few years before they got married).

[Miles To Go]

elements of Nuperman's origin and " year one" may become part of Supes ongoing back story

Will you be picking up Wonder Woman Annual#1 then? It's apparently set to cover the post-reborn take on the Trinity meeting

[RedWhiteAndBlueSupes]

So, the whole point is to say that Superman's continuity is the exact same as it was before Flashpoint, but that he's now always been sans-trunks? Is that literally the only reason for all this?

His trunks will still be in continuity after. DC editorial wouldn't plop a big helping of post crisis going back to Kent's mini series etc. To just screw that up two issues later.

Well, no. The point is to add Jon and the current family into continuity as if it'd always been the norm. Taking the trunks away is an am unfortunate byproduct of the instance on keeping vague shards of the New 52.

I doubt it, DC is showing us everything from Barry's classic Flash suit to Wondey's golden eagle armor, the trunks will stay in continuity. It's too early to bring back classic costumes. Whatever happens we know its the same Superman that comes out the other end...So by this thought process Superman would remember raising a family and also remember being another person the whole time? Uh no. Or yeah, he could be retconned to be "the norm" but that would erase the New 52 Supes from existence as a separate character, doesn't look like that's happening. Every other character still remembers New 52 supes and they don't look like they're primed to forget about him anytime soon. Jon is 10, the new 52 DCU is what? maybe 7 at most, that doesn't even make sense. So while DC is busy reinstating pre-flashpoint history to every other character they're going to pull a 180 with Superman and retcon his history that was only reintroduced (to great acclaim) less than a year ago? Methinks not

[RedWhiteAndBlueSupes]

My gut feeling is all the pre 2000 stuff will be recanonized, a lot of the post 2000 stuff may be shuffled or erased completely and elements of Nuperman's origin and " year one" may become part of Supes ongoing back story, although I think Supes and Lois will likely remember everything, meaning the last few years of Supes and family as refugees remain canon, but only in a tenuous sense.

it's exactly this type of thinking that drove a lot of folks away from New 52and DCYou. Rebirth isn't about reshuffling continuities, DC couldn't make that more clear if they wrote it in the sky in bright neon.

And now Superman's goal will be to bring Jon back and reclaim everything he's lost as a result of all this timey-wimeyness. In other words, Reborn is an arc about Superman taking on the ultimate villain - the reboot!

yep that's the vibe im getting too.

[Miles To Go]

he could be retconned to be "the norm" but that would erase the New 52 Supes from existence as a separate character, doesn't look like that's happening. Every other character still remembers New 52 supes and they don't look like they're primed to forget about him anytime soon.

I would'nt be too sure about that. They remember him right now, but those stories all take place before Reborn. We know from Wonder Woman's annual a new version of the Trinity's initial meeting will take place, as I've mentioned before in this thread.

[RedWhiteAndBlueSupes]

Man who is this Clark Kent guy? He apparently has the ability to control matter? I don't know how this dude can call stuff to erase like that. I don't think he erased anything I think he sent it to another dimension and I think this Clark Kent is probably From Another Dimension/ Earth.

I would'nt be too sure about that. They remember him right now, but those stories all take place before Reborn. We know from Wonder Woman's annual a new version of the Trinity's initial meeting will take place, as I've mentioned before in this thread.

I'm sure Johns has bigger plans for him. And yes I've heard, I don't know what Rucka is doing with his Trinity meeting. It might be some retroactive thing but I doubt it's going to contradict any pre-flashpoint continuity he's been so busy reinstating.

[Kuwagaton]

I felt it was a pretty powerful issue. The way I see it, its a more emotional and personal look at the ramifications of continuity changes/reboots from the perspective of the characters. Readers and writers alike have become pretty blase about the whole thing (Yup, omnipotent being messes with time...WHAM! These two characters are no longer married. That character is erased from existence. That character becomes a douche etc.) but this issue really drives home the very real emotional and psychological trauma that can result from characters actually being aware of the process.

On a thematic level, it fits in well with the overall Rebirth narrative, which is fundamentally the 'anti-reboot' in a sense. We see photographs depicting Pre-Flashpoint Superman history, as well as the son of Pre-Flashpoint Lois and Clark, literally being erased from existence - symbolic of a reboot. And now Superman's goal will be to bring Jon back and reclaim everything he's lost as a result of all this timey-wimeyness. In other words, Reborn is an arc about Superman taking on the ultimate villain - the reboot!

As an aside, did anyone else count the number of candles on the 'anniversary' cake? I counted 14 candles there. So its been 14 years since something. But 14 years since what I wonder? 14 years since Lois and Clark first met (unlikely under current circumstances)? 14 years since they got married (more likely - if they got stuck on Telos 3 years after they got married, spent 1 year on Telos, and then 10 years raising Jon)? The latter makes most sense to me right now. Which does mean that Clark and Lois are officially in their forties (since they first met when they were in their early 20's, and it was at least a few years before they got married).

Very well put, the thing about continuity shifts and the effect being acknowledged as a traumatizing experience.

The candles might as well be for the years of marriage, if they're talking about anniversaries. Nothing else really syncs up. On age, though, there's flexibility. Clark is originally 25 when he debuts as Superman and 28 following Man of Steel. He's in his tenth year during the Doomsday Wars, making him 35. Slightly later than this to have Jon and that means he's circling 50 now.

However... we seem to actually be getting pre flashpoint continuity so far. Post BR and IC, the only events that seemed to connect as remembered were the Death of Superman and the marriage. But references to anything else and previous characterization were so light that I can believe that this Superman was maybe less experienced. If he's younger there, like almost hitting 30 instead of more than halfway to 40, he would be just a bit into his 40s now. The Reborn process may then shave off like ten years.

[Miles To Go]

Man who is this Clark Kent guy? He apparently has the ability to control matter? I don't know how this dude can call stuff to erase like that. I don't think he erased anything I think he sent it to another dimension and I think this Clark Kent is probably From Another Dimension/ Earth. I'm sure Johns has bigger plans for him. And yes I've heard, I don't know what Rucka is doing with his Trinity meeting. It might be some retroactive thing but I doubt it's going to contradict any pre-flashpoint continuity he's been so busy reinstating.

You know, at first I thought Oz was actually responsible for transporting Jon and the house away, taking them "off the grid" like Tim because he was starting to piece together why he was'nt in the photographs, but then the "Prime Suspect" Page intentionally lets it on that Clark Kent was responsible for the attack

[RedWhiteAndBlueSupes]

You know, at first I thought Oz was actually responsible for transporting Jon and the house away, taking them "off the grid" like Tim because he was starting to piece together why he was'nt in the photographs, but then the "Prime Suspect" Page intentionally lets it on that Clark Kent was responsible for the attack

Yeah the prime suspect page asks how this Clark Kent would have the ability to pull off such an audacious attack! Well by God that's a million-dollar question isn't it? LOL. This mystery Clark seems pretty confident in his power too like he's done this kind of thing before or something. I'm running out of guesses on who this guy is I think he's someone we've seen before but with some different backstory and motivation that gives him these strange powers. And did you think that he left that picture of the Daily Planet on purpose? Like as a meeting place or something?

[Miles To Go]

Yeah the prime suspect page asks how this Clark Kent would have the ability to pull off such an audacious attack! Well by God that's a million-dollar question isn't it? LOL. This mystery Clark seems pretty confident in his power too like he's done this kind of thing before or something. I'm running out of guesses on who this guy is I think he's someone we've seen before but with some different backstory and motivation that gives him these strange powers. And did you think that he left that picture of the Daily Planet on purpose? Like as a meeting place or something?

Good catch, maybe he did.

I did get a "Opening From Superman-The Movie" vibe from that bit.

[BeefBourguignon]

I think Prime Suspect Page is asking a trick question. I don't think we are seeing the actions of just one villain. It could be that someone other than Fake Clark left the scrapbook, and that person might not even be the same person who is deleting Jon, the house, and their past. I think they want us to be making assumptions of things not explicitly shown to throw us off. Just my suspicions.

[Patrick Gerard]

Yeah the prime suspect page asks how this Clark Kent would have the ability to pull off such an audacious attack! Well by God that's a million-dollar question isn't it? LOL. This mystery Clark seems pretty confident in his power too like he's done this kind of thing before or something. I'm running out of guesses on who this guy is I think he's someone we've seen before but with some different backstory and motivation that gives him these strange powers. And did you think that he left that picture of the Daily Planet on purpose? Like as a meeting place or something?

Well...

Maybe New Clark is Dominus, Kismet/Strange Visitor is involved, and New 52 Superman is Superman Red.

Heck, as I recall, Dominus was last seen impersonating Superman in Emperor Superman.

[spirit2011]

I think Prime Suspect Page is asking a trick question. I don't think we are seeing the actions of just one villain. It could be that someone other than Fake Clark left the scrapbook, and that person might not even be the same person who is deleting Jon, the house, and their past. I think they want us to be making assumptions of things not explicitly shown to throw us off. Just my suspicions.

I really think they are messing up with us, there is many surprises coming with reborn. it's a long journey