Thoughts about how Ben Reilly's return was handled?

[MarioHerald]

Looking at the solicits and the upcoming change in costume, it is almost safe to say that whatever path of redemption Ben Reilly decides to follow in his new series won't probably start until the end of the first arc.

I think that, for the first 3-6 issues, he's probably going to be as deranged as he was during Clone Conspiracy. But maybe not: Peter David may opt to explore the issue differently.

[Tien Long]

I, for one, am very intrigued with the notion of Ben Reilly being the villain or anti-hero. I like the idea of a hero having a dark twin who opposes him in some way. The relationship between Dante and Nero from the Devil May Cry series comes to mind. Spider-Man has some great archenemies with Green Goblin and Dr. Octopus. He has twisted versions of himself with Venom and Carnage. But an evil twin brother? Ben Reilly could fit that role quite well and I definitely like to see that.

HOWEVER, I'm willing to buy an evil Ben Reilly if there were some compelling reason for it. I don't have all of the issues featuring Ben, but I've read a lot of the Clone Saga TPB's and do have his last appearance in Peter Parker: Spider-Man #75. I see a guy who was a hero, who though felt he was a copy, felt that he was an individual.

So after rereading ASM#22, I'm still not totally convinced with Ben's reasoning. Someone may have to check it over, but we learn in that issue that Ben believes that his entire life was a lie. After all those previous issues of him coming to terms that he was his own individual, he just up and says, nope it was all a lie. That seemed too sudden. Then later on in that issue he says he's not real, but something better, that he can decide what he wants to be. This confuses me. He's a lie, but he's better and still an individual. I apologize, but the logic in that argument is difficult to read.

Granted, I'll accept that the constant deaths made him go a little cuckoo, but his explanation could have been better.

So, in brief, I'm open to Ben's new role. I just wish the execution was better.

[WebLurker]

while i'm one of the cautiously optimistic ones regarding ben's new status quo, i have to say that if marvel didn't anticipate some form of backlash with this direction, then they were really short sighted. how significant that backlash is remains to be seen though

My guess is that they wanted it in hopes that it would drive up sales, with people buying to find out what happens next and why the creative decisions were made. (Or the masterminds of the Clone Conspiracy really liked the idea of making Ben Reilliy a villain through a twisted clone and didn't think or care that the fans wouldn't like it that much.)

[Agent Z]

I, for one, am very intrigued with the notion of Ben Reilly being the villain or anti-hero. I like the idea of a hero having a dark twin who opposes him in some way. The relationship between Dante and Nero from the Devil May Cry series comes to mind. Spider-Man has some great archenemies with Green Goblin and Dr. Octopus. He has twisted versions of himself with Venom and Carnage. But an evil twin brother? Ben Reilly could fit that role quite well and I definitely like to see that.

HOWEVER, I'm willing to buy an evil Ben Reilly if there were some compelling reason for it. I don't have all of the issues featuring Ben, but I've read a lot of the Clone Saga TPB's and do have his last appearance in Peter Parker: Spider-Man #75. I see a guy who was a hero, who though felt he was a copy, felt that he was an individual.

So after rereading ASM#22, I'm still not totally convinced with Ben's reasoning. Someone may have to check it over, but we learn in that issue that Ben believes that his entire life was a lie. After all those previous issues of him coming to terms that he was his own individual, he just up and says, nope it was all a lie. That seemed too sudden. Then later on in that issue he says he's not real, but something better, that he can decide what he wants to be. This confuses me. He's a lie, but he's better and still an individual. I apologize, but the logic in that argument is difficult to read.

Granted, I'll accept that the constant deaths made him go a little cuckoo, but his explanation could have been better.

So, in brief, I'm open to Ben's new role. I just wish the execution was better.

Nero? Don't you mean Vergil?

[Tien Long]

Nero? Don't you mean Vergil?

Oops! Thanks for the correction! Think I got my Devil May Cry mixed up with my Broken Hardys .

Still, I stand by what I previously mentioned, I'm willing to accept an evil/dark/anti-hero Ben Reilly. The evil brother is an exciting theme to explore. However, the reasoning behind it needed to be stronger.

[Vworp Vworp]

It wasn't Ben that broadcasted the degeneration frequency...

Initially no, that was Ock. But when Peter tried to reason with Ben, that gave him a idea.

...and he tried to stop it.

No, he didn't. He basically did the complete opposite of that. He rebroadcast the signal (which at that point had only been affecting the lab and Haven) across all of America via Jonah's News Channel, with a view to wiping out all of America (Fair enough, maybe not the whole world... Guess just one continent was enough to be going on with, right?).

The recap of CC#5 even explicitly states that fact;

When Peter declined, Ben activated a deadly contingency plan. He sent out a signal that destabilised the clones' bodies, making anyone around them vulnerable to the lethal Carrion virus

And OK, for those playing Devil's Advocate with Ben's motivation, let's get into the 'how' because I've been giving that a pass so far (considering the screamingly obviously bigger picture). So let's say Ben's plan has succeeded. All the Clones across the USA destabilise and all the humans (including every superhero without a healiing factor) contract the Carrion virus and die. Ben's itinerary at that point is what? Whip up a new bunch of reanimates and send them out across all of America collecting corpses and remains? About 325,000,000 of them? And in the meantime, there's nobody else alive to do anything. How long before the power goes out? Or before food becomes an issue by the time every single person has been 'reborn'?

If any other villain, from Warren to someone new had carried out Ben's action's in CC, nobody would be having this conversation. It simply would have been accepted for exactly what it was - A generic evil plan from a cliched, moustache twirling, one-note villain.

[Prof. Warren]

Initially no, that was Ock. But when Peter tried to reason with Ben, that gave him a idea.



No, he didn't. He basically did the complete opposite of that. He rebroadcast the signal (which at that point had only been affecting the lab and Haven) across all of America via Jonah's News Channel, with a view to wiping out all of America (Fair enough, maybe not the whole world... Guess just one continent was enough to be going on with, right?).

The recap of CC#5 even explicitly states that fact;



And OK, for those playing Devil's Advocate with Ben's motivation, let's get into the 'how' because I've been giving that a pass so far (considering the screamingly obviously bigger picture). So let's say Ben's plan has succeeded. All the Clones across the USA destabilise and all the humans (including every superhero without a healiing factor) contract the Carrion virus and die. Ben's itinerary at that point is what? Whip up a new bunch of reanimates and send them out across all of America collecting corpses and remains? About 325,000,000 of them? And in the meantime, there's nobody else alive to do anything. How long before the power goes out? Or before food becomes an issue by the time every single person has been 'reborn'?

If any other villain, from Warren to someone new had carried out Ben's action's in CC, nobody would be having this conversation. It simply would have been accepted for exactly what it was - A generic evil plan from a cliched, moustache twirling, one-note villain.

As you're projecting about a storyline that didn't actually occur - what if the Carrion virus wiped out the population? - it's pointless to debate how Ben would've dealt with the aftermath. That's a whole other story that doesn't exist that would've involved decisions on Ben's part that we'll never know about.

But as far as intent goes, Ben's intention as we see in CC is not towards achieving the villainous, nihilistic goal of exterminating life as we know it but rather to bring about a new freedom from death.

[WebLurker]

As you're projecting about a storyline that didn't actually occur - what if the Carrion virus wiped out the population? - it's pointless to debate how Ben would've dealt with the aftermath. That's a whole other story that doesn't exist that would've involved decisions on Ben's part that we'll never know about.

But as far as intent goes, Ben's intention as we see in CC is not towards achieving the villainous, nihilistic goal of exterminating life as we know it but rather to bring about a new freedom from death.

Just because he thought he was helping the world doesn't make make him the hero. The people he was killing wouldn't have agreed. He's not being that much different from the Lizard in the first AMS movie, trying to force everyone to turn into lizards to live what he thought was a better life.

[Prof. Warren]

Just because he thought he was helping the world doesn't make make him the hero. The people he was killing wouldn't have agreed. He's not being that much different from the Lizard in the first AMS movie, trying to force everyone to turn into lizards to live what he thought was a better life.

And...so? Why does he have to be the hero? He sees himself as the 'good guy' in this scenario but that doesn't mean that he actually is. As a reader, I don't need to regard him as a hero to find him interesting.

[Aura Blaize]

Ruined? Eh, I wouldn't go that far.

There's potential here and I'm curious as to where they take it. But honestly, the biggest thing I'm wondering is "Where does he fit in?"

Seriously, why should I care about Ben at the moment. What position is he going to fill? A Spider-Man seeking redemption? That's Kaine. A Darker Spider-Man? That's potentially SpOck. And if not Otto then Venom. Not to mention we have a time displaced Spider-Man and a teenage Spider-Man. So where does he go? After reading the latest issue, I'm more interested in what happens with Otto than I am with Ben.

And at this point, when I think of "Scarlet Spider" I think of Kaine. Maybe things will change.

[Orbus]

Initially no, that was Ock. But when Peter tried to reason with Ben, that gave him a idea.



No, he didn't. He basically did the complete opposite of that. He rebroadcast the signal (which at that point had only been affecting the lab and Haven) across all of America via Jonah's News Channel, with a view to wiping out all of America (Fair enough, maybe not the whole world... Guess just one continent was enough to be going on with, right?).

Ben said he was going to try and isolate the signal in order to stop it.

Admittedly what happens next is a bit confusing. Jonah was broadcasting from Ben's building. It reads to me like the signal was spreading unintentionally through the broadcast at least at first until Ben realizes it can't be stopped and tried to reassure people that even if they die he'll bring them back.

And OK, for those playing Devil's Advocate with Ben's motivation, let's get into the 'how' because I've been giving that a pass so far (considering the screamingly obviously bigger picture). So let's say Ben's plan has succeeded. All the Clones across the USA destabilise and all the humans (including every superhero without a healiing factor) contract the Carrion virus and die. Ben's itinerary at that point is what? Whip up a new bunch of reanimates and send them out across all of America collecting corpses and remains? About 325,000,000 of them? And in the meantime, there's nobody else alive to do anything. How long before the power goes out? Or before food becomes an issue by the time every single person has been 'reborn'?

Even if we accept that Ben spreading the signal over the air was deliberate (which I don't agree with but for the sake of furthering the discussion I'll go with) surely you are not arguing that this was Ben's goal from the beginning? Remember New U under Ben was trying to prevent people from dying by cloning failing organs, it was only people who were terminally ill or already dead that he cloned outright or from another perspective reanimated. That does not sound like the groundwork for a plan to replace the entire population with clones - just the ones that could not be saved.

Sure, there's flaws in his plan, ideally he should have waited until the degeneration problem was 100% completely solved before he started cloning organs and people but surely the intent isn't a malicious one.

If any other villain, from Warren to someone new had carried out Ben's action's in CC, nobody would be having this conversation. It simply would have been accepted for exactly what it was - A generic evil plan from a cliched, moustache twirling, one-note villain.

Except one villain tried to do exactly what you're suggesting Ben was doing; Peter Parker. As I've pointed out Peter joined with the Jackal during the 90s clone saga to replace the world with clones. He didn't get very far in this partly due to Ben fighting to bring him back from the edge but that gets pushed aside. It seems no one wants to have that conversation either.

Just because he thought he was helping the world doesn't make make him the hero. The people he was killing wouldn't have agreed. He's not being that much different from the Lizard in the first AMS movie, trying to force everyone to turn into lizards to live what he thought was a better life.

Ben didn't actually kill anyone though. The people he was bringing back where either terminally ill or already dead. People that could be saved were given replacement organs and did so willingly.

[Spidercide]

Ben Reilly is my favorite fictional character, and I'm glad he's being used again!

Thanks, Dan!

-Pav, who enjoys reading stories...

Pav the RECAP pages of Clone Conspiracy literally admit that this isn't Ben Reilly but his crazy ass clone. And even if he was the genuine article he acts nothing like the Ben from the 90s he might as well be a different character.

I mean honest to God did anyone who wanted Ben back ever want him back in anything resembling an anti-hero/villain/crazy ass roll?

[Spidercide]

Ruined? Eh, I wouldn't go that far.

There's potential here and I'm curious as to where they take it. But honestly, the biggest thing I'm wondering is "Where does he fit in?"

Seriously, why should I care about Ben at the moment. What position is he going to fill? A Spider-Man seeking redemption? That's Kaine. A Darker Spider-Man? That's potentially SpOck. And if not Otto then Venom. Not to mention we have a time displaced Spider-Man and a teenage Spider-Man. So where does he go? After reading the latest issue, I'm more interested in what happens with Otto than I am with Ben.

And at this point, when I think of "Scarlet Spider" I think of Kaine. Maybe things will change.

They ain't ruined anything since this isn't really Ben.

But as for fitting in SpOck doesn't have a series of his own and neither does Kaine. Yes you got Venom but Venom will hopefully be played as a straight villain going forward.

[Spidercide]

And...so? Why does he have to be the hero? He sees himself as the 'good guy' in this scenario but that doesn't mean that he actually is. As a reader, I don't need to regard him as a hero to find him interesting.

He needs to be the hero because that was what literally everyone who ever gave a damn about Ben Reilly liked about him. To say nobody wanted to see him in an anti-hero or villainous light would be a gross understatement. There is absolutely nothing about Ben27 which retains anything about what anyone liked about Ben Reilly from the 1990s.

[classicgmer]

He needs to be the hero because that was what literally everyone who ever gave a damn about Ben Reilly liked about him. To say nobody wanted to see him in an anti-hero or villainous light would be a gross understatement. There is absolutely nothing about Ben27 which retains anything about what anyone liked about Ben Reilly from the 1990s.

I'm not going to go so far as to say nobody was in favor of bringing Ben back as an anti-hero or villain but I'd say the assumption that most of Ben's fans wanted a heroic return for him would be correct.


It's just crazy to me given A. The way they threw the character under the bus to end the Clone Saga & B. How vocal his fanbase has been for the past 20 years that they would choose to bring him back this way.


This just feels like (to me anyhow) like Marvel is lecturing us about the character "You only liked the character cuz he was single Peter & that place is taken soooooooooooooo we have to change him"


It's also puzzling to me how people are having a hard time understanding why some people are so against this I mean think about some of your favorite characters and then Marvel essentially saying "No they don't work the way you liked them anymore and now we have to significantly change them"

Is it really so hard to understand why that would aggravate some people?