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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by AngelJD View Post
    I was thinking about Ben and how he was "reborn" but I was also thinking about how the latest 616 Gwen version was born as it was the same process as him. Unaltered memories and 'rebirth/resurrection/cloned' from the original body.

    Now in my views on the latest Gwen and the subject of "is she the original Gwen resurrected or new version of Gwen and new character" plus the subject of 'what counts as a 'true' resurrection of the original while still having death first'.
    I feel that she is a new character (a sister to original Gwen perse like Ben and Kaine are 'brothers' to Peter) but with the memories of Gwen making her close to the original and close to how possibly the original might act/react while still having her own life and person and choices).

    With the Marvel universe's having and had stories involving 'souls' and an afterlife (such as hell and others) and even the devil that affected Peter with a deal (OMD) I feel the true resurrection happens is if they outright mention the return of the soul/ghost/spirit of the original to a body and that earth plane (thus more linked to celestial, gods, magic, and spirituality forces and process). For example if 616 original Gwen was Peter's or MJ's assigned Guardian Angel (better yet hinting at a future outcome she is given the title of Guardian Angel to their eventual child) and hoping to remove the devils victory over the two that she cares and loves (plus while the devil has his power over them the fated future child existence is threatened) the original 616 Gwen's spirit makes a bet with the devil to be resurrected in order to be able to try to have MJ and Peter remarried by a certain date and can't tell anybody living about her bet nor her end goals (if she fails she becomes the devil's minion (the devil wants a new rider or succubus) but if she wins the devil loses his hold on their happiness and destiny but either way on their 'I do's' or strike of the final hour on the last day Gwen has to lose the body (twist the body the devil places Gwen in is not her original body healed or female but male giving her 'awkward' feelings towards MJ)). In this case since the elements of the 'soul' and godlike powers are put into place I see this more as a resurrection

    Otherwise any other new birth is a new soul and a new person with the rights of life and respect from the cloning process (science not magic/spirituality).

    That said alot of people are worried/upset about how Ben was ruined. To me this Ben from Clone Conspiracy like CC Gwen was isn't the original soul but a new one. That the Miles Jackal murdered with heartless experimentations tons of new souls with each new person/Ben born messed up mentally with the cruel memories carried over till this new human/Ben got free. To me this Ben is his own person with his own choices and also needs some mental help. Now HE sees himself as the original Ben who was brought back truly and killed over and over. He saw the one's he cloned/rebirth to be basically the originals also. That is his belief.
    Oddly that subject and view of him and if he is the original or not wasn't ever really brought up in the comics (but Gwen was and discussed in Amazing Spider-Man 23 and a few other issues). The characters (and readers) seemed to accept/act that he had returned (but not Gwen or others) but now fallen (due to insanity and different beliefs).

    So was the original Ben ruined? I guess it would be if you believe original Ben was truly resurrected (if that is true then the others were truly resurrected as well then by default) or at least would truly act the very same way as this Ben has done.

    Hopefully as long as the character exists the hope of character developments and rising up can happen. If not then still hopefully he will still be fun, used well by writers, and interesting in good ways to see somehow.
    that's a pretty rad and esoteric take on the clone conspiracy mess. it gives Gwen a much more prlomineny role rather than just be the burden on Peter's conscience and having to die eventually.

  2. #62
    Incredible Member AngelJD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KurtW95 View Post
    I think Ben will be fine. Many characters have gone through much worse, and if I'm not mistaken, he never killed anybody who wasn't already dead beforehand or a clone. Could absolutely justify it as mental illness accumulated from the torture he endured at the hands of Warren. And I think he's in good hands with PAD.
    The part that has my attention was "he never killed anybody who wasn't already dead beforehand or a clone".

    So he did kill.
    Clone or not that is a life. Being a clone shouldn't lessen the value of life. If Laura Kinney (X-23) died I'm certain there would be many upset on the 616 Earth of her death and on the Marvel message boards.

    So he did kill living people. The matter of being born by science otherwise a clone shouldn't devalue any individual's life, rights such as the right to exist, right for respect, and happiness. They are real living emotional sentient beings and should not be viewed as disposable as that is a disrespect to life. Miles Jackal didn't just be a evil villain for 'playing god' as it was also and importantly how he treated and used the life made for wickedness, lust, lab rats, and as weapons for his agendas with little regard to their wellbeing outside of what they could offer to him and his ego in being the greatest scientist of his field.

    This recently born version of Ben went off the deep end and was willing to kill (but he believed death was not a crime as death had no power anymore because he had the means of everlasting life now so he believed any consequences of death/murder to anybody could be washed away by his resurrections). Most shocking when thinking about his thought process however was he was willing to kill Kaine and NOT resurrect him (thus he openly is commenting murder even for his standards which further shows how insane and lacking or morality this Ben has gone).

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorIronman View Post
    I'm kind of interested myself in who exactly had what to say in regards to Ben Reilly's direction. It's not like he had to become a villainous spider-character after all since Superior Spider-man proved popular enough despite the controversy, and Lee Price as Venom was already moving forward. Spider-man 2099 could also be argued is morally gray (though leaning towards heroism) and Kaine was still available and Marvel put effort into marketing him to kids on Ultimate Spider-man and is in various video games, not to mention that his comic's failure wasn't for bad writing but shared a market at a time when Superior Spider-man blitzed shelves. Even returning to Scarlet Spider is strange since Ben hasn't been Scarlet Spider in years and Kaine was the most popular incarnation of the name in recent years.
    I'm genuinely curious who thought of this.

    If I had to guess probably

    Tom Brevoort
    Axel Alonso (though to be honest I don't really don't know his thoughts on Ben Reilly)
    Peter David- post Clone Conspiracy is obviously the guiding hand and last but not least

    Joe Quesada. I know he's got a lot more on his plate now a days but there's no way given his clear, repeated stance on Ben over the years that he didn't have some sort of say on this whole thing.

  4. #64
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    I would argue that bringing him back is more important because a future writer could easily change the characterization if it's poorly received.

  5. #65
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by classicgmer View Post
    If I had to guess probably

    Tom Brevoort
    Axel Alonso (though to be honest I don't really don't know his thoughts on Ben Reilly)
    Peter David- post Clone Conspiracy is obviously the guiding hand and last but not least

    Joe Quesada. I know he's got a lot more on his plate now a days but there's no way given his clear, repeated stance on Ben over the years that he didn't have some sort of say on this whole thing.
    in the letters pages it seemed to say there were a few staffers that were very much behind his return, though i can't remember if it's any of the names you mentioned
    troo fan or death

  6. #66

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    I am absolutely disgusted by what Dan Slott did with Ben Reilly. Not everything has to have a damn "monkey's paw" effect attached to it. I mean, God forbid the fans actually get what they want once-in-a-while.

    If PAD can't somehow redeem this trainwreck, Ben would have been better off staying dead.

  7. #67
    Currently MagSeven
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scarlet Spider-Man View Post
    I am absolutely disgusted by what Dan Slott did with Ben Reilly. Not everything has to have a damn "monkey's paw" effect attached to it. I mean, God forbid the fans actually get what they want once-in-a-while.

    If PAD can't somehow redeem this trainwreck, Ben would have been better off staying dead.
    I'm a Spidey fan and this is the first time I've even had a mild interest in Ben. So this fan is getting what he wants.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagSeven View Post
    I'm a Spidey fan and this is the first time I've even had a mild interest in Ben. So this fan is getting what he wants.


    I know this will come off more snarkyish then i intend but you know it's not a crime to not be interested in every character in Marvel's catalouge right?? There's plenty of Marvel characters that don't or have never interested me cause i can easily ignore them rather then think or say "well if they make significant changes here, here and here then maybe i'll care about the character" because i recognize those characters have their fare share of fans and they shouldn't in my view have the character changed to satisfy everyone else because it's ok to not be interested in every character.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by classicgmer View Post
    I know this will come off more snarkyish then i intend but you know it's not a crime to not be interested in every character in Marvel's catalouge right?? There's plenty of Marvel characters that don't or have never interested me cause i can easily ignore them rather then think or say "well if they make significant changes here, here and here then maybe i'll care about the character" because i recognize those characters have their fare share of fans and they shouldn't in my view have the character changed to satisfy everyone else because it's ok to not be interested in every character.
    Absolutely. There are plenty characters that I have no interest in. But in a Spidey book, a book I do have interest in. I'd rather have a Ben that I'm looking forward to reading more about. For the other poster saying that what's going on is "not what the fans want" is treating us all like a hive-mind. This is what THIS fan wants (well let's see how the story plays out, first).

  10. #70

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    he made me like Ben Reilly again
    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    I thought I couldn't love Steve Rogers any more than I already do, but here he is, eating pizza with a fork, just like I do (the only correct way to eat pizza

  11. #71
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    I'm guessing Ben will most likely make a 180 at some point during the initial run of his series. There must be a significant reason for why he switches from a perfectly good costume to his old one besides "sentimentality", maybe he gets a wake-up call and decides to pick up before he died.
    The city I once knew as home is teetering on the edge of radioactive oblivion

  12. #72
    Mighty Member Zeitgeist's Avatar
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    Never change, CBR.
    ♪ღ♪*..* *..*♪ღ♪.* *..*♪ღ♪*

    ♪ღ♪░M░E░P░H░I░S░T░O░ W░A░S░ R░I░G░H░T░♪ღ♪

    *♪ღ♪*..* *..*♪.* *..*♪ღ♪

  13. #73
    Y'know. Pav's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeitgeist View Post
    Never change, CBR.
    Don't listen to Zeit.

    Change, please.

    Kthxbye

    -Pav, who agrees with Sheryl Crow...
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  14. #74
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    do you feel bens fall or breakdown or evil heel turn is similar to what Emma underwent in ivsx 6 when she killed a shipfull of inhumans while having a breakdown? Both are in the same boat now and its interesting to speculate on what's going to be their ultimate fate although I doubt it will he something good but marvel may surprise us although don't hold your breathe waiting.

  15. #75
    Mighty Member Vworp Vworp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theoneandonly View Post
    do you feel bens fall or breakdown or evil heel turn is similar to what Emma underwent in ivsx 6 when she killed a shipfull of inhumans while having a breakdown? Both are in the same boat now and its interesting to speculate on what's going to be their ultimate fate although I doubt it will he something good but marvel may surprise us although don't hold your breathe waiting.
    Emma's turn, like Felicia's and Ben's, is ultimately born out of the same thinking. That Marvel don't know or care how to create interesting new villains. Instead they'll just turn characters who've never been bad guys... or undo years of development with characters that actually moved on from what they were. Of course, that thinking then falls down when said characters are subsequently written as flat and generic villains, no more interesting than a new character might have been.

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