Bleeding Cool says "Make Mine Marvel" will restore legacy numbering

[Tiamatty]

and have even weaker sales?
If You are right that white people read about white heroes while black about black... then We should have much more white characters and they should be more important because white people are majority of us population.

Except I am not saying that white people only read about white heroes and black people only read about black heroes. I'm a straight white guy, and most of the characters I love most are not those things. But the comics industry has a reputation for pandering to straight white men. A reputation that turns off some potential readers. The more the industry - Marvel included - works to prove its inclusiveness, the more it works to prove that women and minorities of all kinds are welcome within the industry, the better the odds of picking up new readers.

White people = majority of population
more peple = more writers
if Marvel will hire more diverse writers then quality of books will drop.
and why Marvel should treat them better than white writers?

I'm sorry, are you saying that diverse writers aren't talented? It sure as hell seems like that's what you're saying. "We can't hire those non-white writers! They suck! They're no good!" It's hard to find another way of interpreting your statement that hiring diverse writers will make the quality drop. I mean, if you're not saying that non-white writers are bad, then what else could you be trying to say here?

Also, giving them the same opportunities they give white writers isn't treating them better. And they're not getting the same opportunities. Anyone who thinks female and minority writers get the same opportunities white guys get is deluding themselves, and really needs to read the experiences of women and minorities within the industry.

New writers usually have weak titles and they need to prove that they are good enough to have better books.
Do You think that diverse writers can't compete with white writers? and they need special treatment?

Is it a sales competition or a quality competition? Because white guys can go from low-selling titles to A-list titles, based on critical reception. But female and POC writers don't seem to get that same option. If a white guy's book has shit sales, people are willing to give the writer more chances, but if a woman or POC has shit sales, it's used as proof of why they shouldn't be writing anything bigger. Howard the Duck didn't get great numbers, but Zdarsky's getting a Spider-Man title. Where's Kate Leth's Spider-Man title? Hellcat lasted longer than Howard did, and got about as much critical praise. So what do you think the odds are that Marvel will give her a high-profile project? Hell, women of colour who write comics can't even get their feet in the frigging door at Marvel. They're just straight-up not allowed to compete with white writers, because it's more important that Spencer and Bendis and Aaron and Lemire and Bunn all have 20 books a month than to see if maybe a black woman might be able to do a good job.

You are wrong. You can't hire many diverse writers without losing quality because there is not enough diverse writers.

No. There aren't many you know about. Because they don't get jobs at the big publishers. They have to do webcomics, or go through Kickstarter, or just make their own damn publishers entirely, in order to get their comics out, because no matter how good they are, the bigger publishers do not give one single wet shit about any of them. If you're a woman of colour and you want to write for a major comic publisher, you need to become a critically-acclaimed prose author first, because the comics publishers sure as hell don't give a shit about comics written by women of colour.

There are tons of immensely talented minority writers. And none of the established publishers want anything to do with any of them.

If they don't need to prove that they are good enough for flagships and events? If they don't need to prove then it is treating them better.
Marvel would give flagship to diverse writer if he would be good enough.

No. They wouldn't. At this point, there is not a single chance in hell that Marvel would give any truly important title to anyone who isn't a white guy. They've proven that. There are incredibly talented female and minority writers. They don't get the opportunities white guys get.

Institutionalized racism is a thing. It is real. All the major comics publishers have it. Marvel, DC, Image, Dark Horse, IDW, Valiant, even the new Aftershock Comics - they're all guilty of institutionalized racism that makes it incredibly difficult for anyone who isn't a white guy to break in, especially as a writer. The people at those publishers don't read comics made by POC, so they don't hire POC.

[skyvolt2000]

You are wrong. You can't hire many diverse writers without losing quality because there is not enough diverse writers.

There are TONS of them. Funny they don't get hired at Marvel or others because no one bothers to GOOGLE or ask the few POC that are in the industry about them.
And DEFINE quality? How do you know a writer of color is bad of good if NO ONE reads the book?

Lets talk Dwayne McDuffie.

25 YEARS in the comic book industry and he only got to be head writers for ONE book-Justice League and we saw how that ended.
So after selling jokes to David Letterman, Ben 10, Static Shock, editor for 257 issues of Milestone that came ON TIME-unlike 90% of Image, Scooby Doo, Hellraiser, She Hulk pitch, Emmy nomination, 3 DVD direct movies and editor at Marvel-he got his shot in 2007.

Lets talk Christoper Priest.

I can say BLACK PANTHER and that is all you need to hear. Not the writer who killed John Stewart's wife or Ironfist. Not the guy behind Xero, Quantum & Woody, The Ray or all the other books he has done. He did what the LEGENDARY Jack Kirby could not do-make BP SELL. Yet can't get shots at Peter Parker, Bruce Wayne & others. He gets offered Cyborg and leaves the industry. The default black character writer. He is now doing Deathstroke and many say he is doing a better job than guys NOT named Marv Wolfman.

Lets talk CM Punk
No writing skills and gets Drax.

Lets talk JT Krul
EVERY book he has done at DC has been a BAD SELLER. His last one did WORST than Moon Girl.

Lets talk Scott Lodbell
Every book he did under New 52 was considered the the WORST and he kept getting JOBS.

Lets talk BENDIS
For all the HATE he gets-I still see a LINE of folks running to buy his books.

In the Static Shock special-Matt Wayne pretty much said this industry will gladly keep WHITE writers no matter how bad employed.

[Alpha Storm]

I honestly couldn't care less if you gave a damn about any of the new heroes. And once again, an old fan seems to skip past all the reasons that a new fan might be upset. It's been 75+ years for several heroes and I would love for them to adopt new identities. People change and to see Steve go right back to being Captain America is regression. I didn't say anything about them not being there anymore. Having most of Marvel's books being just pairs of "Captain America" & "Hulk" & "Wolverine" & etc is just wasting space. If the old heroes are so popular then let them spin off into a new titled book. I'd rather see Laura handling the new title of "Wolverine" and what it emans to her then Logan coming back and dealing with something about his background for the umpteenth time. Or, the much smarter route, let legacy and original chracters share titles so there'd be more room for experimental titles with old, forgotten characters.

And so many assumptions as far as how I feel about Bruce and Steve headlining their own titles. If Bruce comes back then he'll be back to struggling against the Hulk. Yeah, he had a tragic end to his life but guess what? Tragic things happen. Not every hero gets to go out with a bang and sacrificial speech. As far as Steve, if it would make you happy, he can sacrifice himself to defeat Madame Hydra and Baron Zemo or something. I mean, he is the main villain of the event (as far as we know) so it would make sense if he were to die. Especially with all the heavy hints of Miles Morales killing him. And does it matter if he dies a Hydra agent (note: isn't the same thing as being a Nazi for the umpfteenth time) if the moment he joined Hydra, he lost all sense of his personal ideals. And I'm not saying they should kill off all the characters but if the story calls for it, then bringing certain characters back doesn't make sense. Logan coming back to life doesn't make sense, especially wtih OML and Luara being such great replacements. Same with Wilson to Rogers and Bruce always being stuck in a narrative timeloop.

But why should the originals need to adopt NEW identities? The only reason those names HAVE any meaning at all is because of those characters. If not for Steve Rogers no one would give a damn about Captain America, Steve Rogers is the character who made the name. And of course it matters if Steve Rogers dies Hydra - it's not like he chose this, it was DONE to him. As well there would be no Wolverine without Logan. Same for Hulk without Bruce Banner. No Iron Man without Tony Stark. All these people are the only reason those titles have meaning in the first place.

Frankly IMO it's up to new characters to pave their own ways, to create their own iconic names - not to basically step into something that has already been created for them. Why should the established heroes have to give up their titles, give up what they have built, just so new ones can take them over? The new ones should be building their own under their own names.

[JKtheMac]

This just isn't true. Try starting Flash by Johns for example at Blitz or Rogue War, the most famous arcs. You miss 90% of the backstory which makes the stories what they are. Starting Daredevil with Born Again, shitty experience.
Starting half way through a run almost always provides a lesser experience. And the times I've done it with famous arcs I've almost always went back to the start of the run because I didn't get the hype, and then thoroughly enjoyed it the second time.

I am specifically talking about the Marvel formula currently used for the majority of books. I am not saying that all books follow this and I am not saying every arc is structurally identical. I am specifically saying there isn't as much difference in most books between arcs based on formula and structure as you suggest.

These rules are set up specifically to allow people to be able to read a trade without needing too much context. Just as the early Marvel maxim was every issue could be the reader's first, so do trades try and do this today.

As far as I am aware DC don't require this structural consistency.

[skyvolt2000]

Do You think that diverse writers can't compete with white writers? and they need special treatment?

They can. The issue is not so much with Marvel but OUTSIDE of Marvel.

Take Mosaic-the MOMENT it was announced-I saw store owners say "I do not want THAT BOOK in my store!"

Before that Motor Crush at Image that had the creative team from Burnside Batgirl-store REFUSED to stock the book on the grounds it was about a black woman.

Sanford Greene-funny when he drew white kids in Battleworld Runaways or white X-Men-no one had issues with his art. He does Powerman & Ironfist suddenly it's an ISSUE.

Before that Tim King gets hired for Batman and it's revealed Duke Thomas will be in both Batman books. LONG TIME Batman collectors-who bought the book forever-refuse to buy it. I have never seen this many Batman books in dollar bins days let alone weeks after coming out. You can barely discuss Batman with it turning into a bash a certain character. Duke Thomas barely appears in most of the books and folks act like he RUINED the franchise.

Before Rebirth-the line started to the left of store owners refusing to sell Cyborg.

Before ANAM-one PROMO poster got put out with POC and the Internet went NUTS.

How can writer and artist of color compete when the line of folks that will take issue with what they do starts at the comic book store or fan?

And the question that needs to be asked-why are the main ones getting the abuse black?

Greg Pak isn't going through this. Nor Marjorie Liu.

Simon Baz & Jessica Cruz supplanted Hal in his book and Justice League. No backlash. There are more complaint threads about Duke Thomas than about the lack of progress of Cyborg-who is now fighting rats & Cee Loo Green in his book. Even racist Wally West has only gotten one complaint thread. Moon Girl has complaint threads and yet her book is not selling.

You have tons of badly done books at both companies yet Duke Thomas and Moon Girl lead the charge in complaint threads.

[dan12456]

I am specifically talking about the Marvel formula currently used for the majority of books. I am not saying that all books follow this and I am not saying every arc is structurally identical. I am specifically saying there isn't as much difference in most books between arcs based on formula and structure as you suggest.

These rules are set up specifically to allow people to be able to read a trade without needing too much context. Just as the early Marvel maxim was every issue could be the reader's first, so do trades try and do this today.

As far as I am aware DC don't require this structural consistency.

Oh got you. Wasn't really aware they were doing this (despite reading a few books like Daredevil and the Inhumans stuff. Soule still loves planting longterm seeds for future arcs). If it's a long term change maybe the arc thing could work there?

[Thor2014]

The diversity of the writing pool be spun-off to a different thread, this thread is about legacy numbering.

[Tofali]

Well since almost all "legacies" are diverse I think the discussion is happening in the correct thread

[Agent of Wolfram & Hart]

The idea of history acknowledging renumbering gives me a big smile, the constant relaunches and new #1s has gotten tired and confusing. You shouldn't have to do research to find what issues you should read to catch up with a character. Issues I want historical numbers on:
Amazing Spider-Man
Avengers
Uncanny X-Men
Thunderbolts
Captain America
Thor
Iron Man
Incredible Hulk

Acknowledging it's past at Marvel makes me happy

[JKtheMac]

Oh got you. Wasn't really aware they were doing this (despite reading a few books like Daredevil and the Inhumans stuff. Soule still loves planting longterm seeds for future arcs). If it's a long term change maybe the arc thing could work there?

To be honest I didn't notice despite reading 98% of books between AvX and SW for a personal project. But Tom King pointed it out in a recent podcast and the motes fell from my eyes. For example count the pages before the first splash or focus on where the fights are. Most writers conform. I suspect you need to stick to the formula until you are trusted to break the rules.

[gurkle]

I can't say I care much about numbering, though the constant #1 relaunches have become so obviously absurd that something had to be done. I think the last straw for me was when Uncanny Avengers got a new #1 for a volume that only lasted one 5-issue arc before Secret Wars, and then got another new #1 after Secret Wars.

The problem with this is not so much the renumbering itself, as that Marvel has to come up with something to justify the new volume and portray the new #1 as a jumping-on point that begins a new story. This makes it difficult for a title to have a lot of momentum.

I don't think that's only because of the renumbering; the creative culture at Marvel is very different now than it used to be. It used to be that editors wanted to create the illusion that everything was all one story, so they didn't call attention to the fact that a new writer was arriving. Writers are more important and a bigger selling point now, and editors want to make it clear that when a new writer takes over, it's a fresh start.

Both these ways of doing things have their virtues and problems, but I would like to see more sense of a through-line and a continuing story even when a new writer takes over.

[Xelossik]

They can. The issue is not so much with Marvel but OUTSIDE of Marvel.

If You are right then it would be stupid to giving events and flagships to diverse writers...

Take Mosaic-the MOMENT it was announced-I saw store owners say "I do not want THAT BOOK in my store!"

few shops ignored this book... whatever... This book is unlucky mostly because marvel started 30 new books with new characters... poor guy is competing with 2 new Iron Mans...

Before that Motor Crush at Image that had the creative team from Burnside Batgirl-store REFUSED to stock the book on the grounds it was about a black woman.

Sanford Greene-funny when he drew white kids in Battleworld Runaways or white X-Men-no one had issues with his art. He does Powerman & Ironfist suddenly it's an ISSUE.

and? did Marvel/DC canceled this books or something? few people wrote something on the internet... end of the world ?

How can writer and artist of color compete when the line of folks that will take issue with what they do starts at the comic book store or fan?

if this is true then only a moron would give them flagships and events...

And the question that needs to be asked-why are the main ones getting the abuse black?

Tell me. please tell me. I am sure that You have Your answer.

Simon Baz & Jessica Cruz supplanted Hal in his book and Justice League. No backlash. There are more complaint threads about Duke Thomas than about the lack of progress of Cyborg-who is now fighting rats & Cee Loo Green in his book. Even racist Wally West has only gotten one complaint thread. Moon Girl has complaint threads and yet her book is not selling.

If Moon Girl has weak sales she should be cancelled... she wasn't...

You have tons of badly done books at both companies yet Duke Thomas and Moon Girl lead the charge in complaint threads.

Moon Girl leads the charge? maybe because there is a flaw in her design?
or maybe because You care about her and because of that You are biased ?
i don't see complains about majority of black heroes...

majority of people doesn't care about writers. Manga is very popular. Some black heroes are also very popular. Of course not all but so what?

[Slicknickshady]

Uncanny got up to 600 at the end of the Bendis run and the Bunn run is 19 issues.I'm not sure what they plan to do with the X-Men line given that Resurrxion is just now starting and we don't exactly have an Uncanny or Adjectiveless X book at the moment.

This current Uncanny is over at #20.

Thanks for the confirmation about the previous. This would mean the next Uncanny is #621

[Digifiend]

Well since almost all "legacies" are diverse I think the discussion is happening in the correct thread

This thread is about legacy NUMBERING though, not legacy HEROES. That's two completely different topics.

[Digifiend]

This current Uncanny is over at #20.

Thanks for the confirmation about the previous. This would mean the next Uncanny is #621

That's the easiest one to work out.

Thunderbolts, which is either going on hiatus or cancelled (not running during Secret Empire) is at 234 issues as of April's issue 12, I believe, making the first issue of volume 4 number #235 under a legacy system. That doesn't count one-shots or annuals, though, nor the six issue mini Avengers/Thunderbolts which ran after issue 81 and before the New Thunderbolts series that ended up getting legacy numbering a year in (and thus IS counted), so they could give it a higher issue number. 190 + 32 + 12 = 234. Adding those extras would almost get it to 250.