Questions For Those Considered "Bad Kids" in School

[Tien Long]

Hi all. I thought I'd just ask some of the posters for their input. For the past several months, I've been in the process of becoming a teacher. In order to get some real world experience, I've been substitute teaching at different schools at the elementary, middle, and high school level. Honestly, I've really been digging it and I've had some great moments so far. I can't tell you how good it feels to see someone you've taught improve and become better. Plus, I've been having a good rapport with the students.

Still, there have been less than stellar moments with certain students. It's the usual stuff, kids being disrespectful and acting out both towards me and towards each other. And for me, it's frustrating. While there is a component of frustration over loss of control, what frustrates me more is that I see so much potential in these kids. Indeed, I've tended to notice that the ones who act out are actually quite smart. So seeing them behave this way, it hurts, because I know they can accomplish so much.

Now, there are lots of resources to deal with this. I've read articles on classroom management and other teachers offer advice. There are quite a number of online communities for teachers. Also I'm a substitute teacher and I know that students view me............................in a different light than their regular teachers. However, I'd like to hear from those who were considered the "bad kids" in school mainly because you offer a unique perspective. Specifically, why did (or do) you act in this way? What do you feel could have been done (or should be done) to improve your situation? As a teacher, what can I do to improve?

Any and all responses would be appreciated.

[DebkoX]

It was about fitting in for me a bit. I wasn't rude, just a nuissance to teachers. Called a few by their first names, which was extremely disrespectful. Being a minority, I felt the only way to belong was by being the clown. I still got high grades, and never got into fights or anything bad. I remember it was a stage where I kinda thrived off the thrill of it, knowing I'd get a reaction.

I realised soon that it was a waste of time and stupid. I didn't need it, but I felt I did.

[Invader67]

I was a smart ass in school, got sent to the office on the first day of school for not stop talking to the chick next to me. I can't tell you how many times I was paddled in the principal's office from elementary through high school. In high school I hung out in the smoking area all four years, back then we could smoke in school (graduated in 1985), grew my hair long, still a metal head to this day, usually went to class really stoned. I was the guy with long hair who wore concert shirts everyday. Back then anything below a 60 was an F, and I passed a few classes with a 60 which was a D. I was proud of the fact that one six weeks I got 5 F's and 1 D on my report card cause I beat my buddy who got 4 F's and 2 D's. Didn't really cause too much trouble and I did get along great with some of my teachers, especially my history teachers. I was pretty much all about partying, girls, and going to concerts and was like **** school. I got suspended a couple of times my senior year for telling a teacher to **** off. It was cool, three days at home and by about 1:00PM the first day I had finished the three days of work my teachers sent home. Used to skip out a lot, but if I missed a test because I skipped out, I would make it up at lunch the next day. All that being said, I graduated on time, never been in trouble with the law, I was always respectful with my friends parents - that's the way everyone was raised back then, I've been married to my wonderful wife Christy for 19 years, 20 years this coming September. Not sure if my rambling was of any help, but most of us, turn out okay.

[Tien Long]

I was a smart ass in school, got sent to the office on the first day of school for not stop talking to the chick next to me. I can't tell you how many times I was paddled in the principal's office from elementary through high school. In high school I hung out in the smoking area all four years, back then we could smoke in school (graduated in 1985), grew my hair long, still a metal head to this day, usually went to class really stoned. I was the guy with long hair who wore concert shirts everyday. Back then anything below a 60 was an F, and I passed a few classes with a 60 which was a D. I was proud of the fact that one six weeks I got 5 F's and 1 D on my report card cause I beat my buddy who got 4 F's and 2 D's. Didn't really cause too much trouble and I did get along great with some of my teachers, especially my history teachers. I was pretty much all about partying, girls, and going to concerts and was like **** school. I got suspended a couple of times my senior year for telling a teacher to **** off. It was cool, three days at home and by about 1:00PM the first day I had finished the three days of work my teachers sent home. Used to skip out a lot, but if I missed a test because I skipped out, I would make it up at lunch the next day. All that being said, I graduated on time, never been in trouble with the law, I was always respectful with my friends parents - that's the way everyone was raised back then, I've been married to my wonderful wife Christy for 19 years, 20 years this coming September. Not sure if my rambling was of any help, but most of us, turn out okay.

Glad to hear that! Rock on, bro! And yes, this has been helpful !

[Kees_L]

If you set boundaries and are willing to help anybody meet those, I'd say you would be doing the best you can.

If I were teacher I would make it my aim to prove there wouldn't have to be bad behavior on my watch.

Or in other words: no kids are neededly bad or else they could be acting out due to seeking some assistance. Should such a kid not accept help from you, then you could deduce you might not be able to help them - eventhough you tried - as good as you could. (I'd guess this could likely happen and shouldn't ever keep you up at night!)

If I were a teacher I wouldn't ever want to 'demand for' respect but instead I'd wish to be capable of commanding or at least deserving it. I'd say there's a difference.

[Tami]

I wasn't a "Bad Kid", but my experience might be helpful.

When I was in elementary school, I had, what would probably be diagnosed today as "Selective Mutism" caused by something that happened when I was very young. I pretty much had it up until 8th grade. My teachers tried everything with limited success. It was actually thanks to my parents that I finally started talking more normally.

I guess I got a little more attention from the teachers than the other students as a result. Or maybe because they thought I was an easy mark, but I was bullied a lot .... well, they tried to bully me. Pretty much anyone who tried to attack me physically, they got the worst of it. No one told me I couldn't fight back, so I did and I was good at it. So much so that, before I started High School my mother made me promise not to fight under any circumstance.

And, it happened again, only this time I took it without fighting back. Never been more scared, but I survived it and ultimately graduated 1st in my class. One thing my parents never told me, not til my mother finally did about 15 years ago, was that she and my father had been called into the principle's office in my elementary school where they talked about my fighting.

[Tien Long]

If you set boundaries and are willing to help anybody meet those, I'd say you would be doing the best you can.

If I were teacher I would make it my aim to prove there wouldn't have to be bad behavior on my watch.

Or in other words: no kids are neededly bad or else they could be acting out due to seeking some assistance. Should such a kid not accept help from you, then you could deduce you might not be able to help them - eventhough you tried - as good as you could. (I'd guess this could likely happen and shouldn't ever keep you up at night!)

I've heard about this from some teachers. There will be moments that no matter how hard you try, the kid won't just respond. It doesn't mean that you're a bad teacher, but rather you might not be the right one for this student. At the same time, other teachers put more of the onus on themselves. No matter what, the teacher is responsibility for reaching this kid. The kid doesn't change, but rather you've to change your instruction to get this kid motivated some way, some how.

Me, I think I'm a little bit of both. I'm realistic enough to know that I can't reach every student. But calling it quits on a kid, and just resigning myself to saying that I'll just have to put up with garbage for 9 months, I'm hopeful to find another way.

If I were a teacher I wouldn't ever want to 'demand for' respect but instead I'd wish to be capable of commanding or at least deserving it. I'd say there's a difference.

Oh yeah, most definitely. The worst thing one can do is a teacher is say "Because I said so!" Of course, the kid won't listen to that. Rather, we're taught to model good behavior and show respect to others for our students because they'll show it to both you and each other. Yeah, that's pretty naive and idealistic, but in my experiences it has a better impact that just shouting at kids. It takes a while, but it can work out.

I wasn't a "Bad Kid", but my experience might be helpful.

When I was in elementary school, I had, what would probably be diagnosed today as "Selective Mutism" caused by something that happened when I was very young. I pretty much had it up until 8th grade. My teachers tried everything with limited success. It was actually thanks to my parents that I finally started talking more normally.

I guess I got a little more attention from the teachers than the other students as a result. Or maybe because they thought I was an easy mark, but I was bullied a lot .... well, they tried to bully me. Pretty much anyone who tried to attack me physically, they got the worst of it. No one told me I couldn't fight back, so I did and I was good at it. So much so that, before I started High School my mother made me promise not to fight under any circumstance.

And, it happened again, only this time I took it without fighting back. Never been more scared, but I survived it and ultimately graduated 1st in my class. One thing my parents never told me, not til my mother finally did about 15 years ago, was that she and my father had been called into the principle's office in my elementary school where they talked about my fighting.

Apologies if I'm not understanding this correctly, but are you saying that some of the teachers bullied you?

[Kees_L]

I've heard about this from some teachers. There will be moments that no matter how hard you try, the kid won't just respond. It doesn't mean that you're a bad teacher, but rather you might not be the right one for this student. At the same time, other teachers put more of the onus on themselves. No matter what, the teacher is responsibility for reaching this kid. The kid doesn't change, but rather you've to change your instruction to get this kid motivated some way, some how.

Me, I think I'm a little bit of both. I'm realistic enough to know that I can't reach every student. But calling it quits on a kid, and just resigning myself to saying that I'll just have to put up with garbage for 9 months, I'm hopeful to find another way.

Well, when I think about teachers I had that I liked, or who I thought were really apt at getting themselves across towards me or anyone essentially acting up, they were all pretty laid back. You couldn't get them to overreact or go overboard even if you tried.

Like a "drunken fighter style" martial arts character: they appear jolly or even plain at ease in their own element, intent on getting through each and every day with a happy face no matter what. Making themselves appear (or be) in command only the more, because who doesn't want to be making things better with such almost contagious effortlessness.

I'd believe young people are easily embarrassed or thrown off guard by anything, especially those (young) people who'd feel to have reason to be acting out - control is what is lacking for them and why wouldn't they be exactly accurate to feel that way, due to bad stuff going on for them in school or at home or such.

I'd seriously believe for most any such situations, however grave or pivotal or whatever, a teacher best remains moderate and calm without becoming frustrated or either super engaged. Instead just be, be willing, be "there" at doing your job, best with aiming to be feeling good about that job. People wanting help should be able to find you. Especially to potential 'bad seeds' or kids testing you out, or parents testing you out, this will work in your favor and as such it works in anyone's favor - for way bad seeds or only moderate ones.
I hope I'm explaining myself correctly. To rephrase in one sentence: someone who really wants to help with remaining mindful of their responsibilities likely best does so without overthinking or placing the focus onto themselves TOO much.

Oh yeah, most definitely. The worst thing one can do is a teacher is say "Because I said so!" Of course, the kid won't listen to that. Rather, we're taught to model good behavior and show respect to others for our students because they'll show it to both you and each other. Yeah, that's pretty naive and idealistic, but in my experiences it has a better impact that just shouting at kids. It takes a while, but it can work out.

Agreed. What a nice idea to make a thread about BTW. Best of luck on the job.

[Tami]

I've heard about this from some teachers. There will be moments that no matter how hard you try, the kid won't just respond. It doesn't mean that you're a bad teacher, but rather you might not be the right one for this student. At the same time, other teachers put more of the onus on themselves. No matter what, the teacher is responsibility for reaching this kid. The kid doesn't change, but rather you've to change your instruction to get this kid motivated some way, some how.

Me, I think I'm a little bit of both. I'm realistic enough to know that I can't reach every student. But calling it quits on a kid, and just resigning myself to saying that I'll just have to put up with garbage for 9 months, I'm hopeful to find another way.



Oh yeah, most definitely. The worst thing one can do is a teacher is say "Because I said so!" Of course, the kid won't listen to that. Rather, we're taught to model good behavior and show respect to others for our students because they'll show it to both you and each other. Yeah, that's pretty naive and idealistic, but in my experiences it has a better impact that just shouting at kids. It takes a while, but it can work out.



Apologies if I'm not understanding this correctly, but are you saying that some of the teachers bullied you?

Sorry if I wasn't clear. My classmates, the other students and some neighborhood kids I didn't go to school with did. Just a few over the course of several years. Classmates tried it on me in High School too.

[Abe]

The worst thing one can do is a teacher is say "Because I said so!" Of course, the kid won't listen to that. Rather, we're taught to model good behavior and show respect to others for our students because they'll show it to both you and each other. Yeah, that's pretty naive and idealistic, but in my experiences it has a better impact that just shouting at kids. It takes a while, but it can work out.

Well... Sometimes you have to. Of course it's not the best thing a teacher could say, but there are worst things! Of course it works if you have already some respect - at least from other students. And it shouldn't be said shouting at the kids. They even could listen and understand the implicit in this sentence, even if they are not willing to apply what you're saying. It's not always a sentence that is disrespectful of the persons you are talking to.

Like a "drunken fighter style" martial arts character: they appear jolly or even plain at ease in their own element, intent on getting through each and every day with a happy face no matter what. Making themselves appear (or be) in command only the more, because who doesn't want to be making things better with such almost contagious effortlessness.

Agreed. That's the ideal. (The ever happy face is not always needed btw : we are not robots! But smiling can be very useful! And there are many ways of smiling!)

I never been much into meditation stuffs, but once I accompanied a friend to a session of zazen. Believe it or not but those couple hours (without even a word) completely changed my way of teaching - for the better! One time was enough!

That's a great advice Kees_L. Excellent perception of what the art of teaching should be!

[dzub]

I was'nt a 'bad' kid per se.
More of an unattentive, disruptive class clown who brought my friends along to my circus.
I respected the teachers but i simply just was'nt interested in school, there was no one at that time to tell me the real value of education.

I'm doing alright for myself now but sometimes i just can't shake off how potentially my life would be better if i really paid attention in school and had a degree.
IMO, it is the responsibility of my parents rather than my teachers to tell me to stay focused and get good academic qualifications.

I had a substitute/trainee teacher came in when i was 15 for my Food and Nutrition classes.
My usual teacher saw the potential in me, she kept saying i was very smart but lazy and simply did'nt care.
The substitute teacher worked on that, she really showed plenty of faith in my, made sure i remained focused and true enough, i was top of her class the next year.
I was fortunate enough to have another similar experience during my English classes.

Basically, all i needed was someone to believe in me, guide me and show me the way back when i did'nt know what i was doing, did'nt know the potential i had

hope this helps, brother!

[Tien Long]

Well, when I think about teachers I had that I liked, or who I thought were really apt at getting themselves across towards me or anyone essentially acting up, they were all pretty laid back. You couldn't get them to overreact or go overboard even if you tried.

Like a "drunken fighter style" martial arts character: they appear jolly or even plain at ease in their own element, intent on getting through each and every day with a happy face no matter what. Making themselves appear (or be) in command only the more, because who doesn't want to be making things better with such almost contagious effortlessness.

I'd believe young people are easily embarrassed or thrown off guard by anything, especially those (young) people who'd feel to have reason to be acting out - control is what is lacking for them and why wouldn't they be exactly accurate to feel that way, due to bad stuff going on for them in school or at home or such.

I'd seriously believe for most any such situations, however grave or pivotal or whatever, a teacher best remains moderate and calm without becoming frustrated or either super engaged. Instead just be, be willing, be "there" at doing your job, best with aiming to be feeling good about that job. People wanting help should be able to find you. Especially to potential 'bad seeds' or kids testing you out, or parents testing you out, this will work in your favor and as such it works in anyone's favor - for way bad seeds or only moderate ones.
I hope I'm explaining myself correctly. To rephrase in one sentence: someone who really wants to help with remaining mindful of their responsibilities likely best does so without overthinking or placing the focus onto themselves TOO much.



Agreed. What a nice idea to make a thread about BTW. Best of luck on the job.

You hit on a lot of good points here. Actually, a lot of what you said is what I'm learning for classroom management. Ideally, you shouldn't take things personally. If the kid is rude, obnoxious, sarcastic, or whatnot, returning with the same behavior just makes it worse. I've seen others, both fellow teachers and other students, fall into that. Don't be sarcastic back or try to have the last say.

As you've said, one has to be calm about these situations, and respond to such things with equanimity. And one falls back and enforces the rules and class norms which were established previously. (even the calmest of teachers has to have some teeth). Yes, one hears these things in Eastern philosophy, but well, I think Patrick Swayze from sums up the sentiment nicely here:



Yep, I've fallen back on 'ole Dalton's advice quite often in teaching.

I was'nt a 'bad' kid per se.
More of an unattentive, disruptive class clown who brought my friends along to my circus.
I respected the teachers but i simply just was'nt interested in school, there was no one at that time to tell me the real value of education.

I'm doing alright for myself now but sometimes i just can't shake off how potentially my life would be better if i really paid attention in school and had a degree.
IMO, it is the responsibility of my parents rather than my teachers to tell me to stay focused and get good academic qualifications.

I had a substitute/trainee teacher came in when i was 15 for my Food and Nutrition classes.
My usual teacher saw the potential in me, she kept saying i was very smart but lazy and simply did'nt care.
The substitute teacher worked on that, she really showed plenty of faith in my, made sure i remained focused and true enough, i was top of her class the next year.
I was fortunate enough to have another similar experience during my English classes.

Basically, all i needed was someone to believe in me, guide me and show me the way back when i did'nt know what i was doing, did'nt know the potential i had

hope this helps, brother!

Most definitely! You hit the nail on the head, like I said earlier, I see the potential in these kids. So it does frustrate me when others, especially the students themselves don't believe it. It can be trying to make them see that.

[Mister Happy]

Indeed, I've tended to notice that the ones who act out are actually quite smart. . .

This was exactly the reason I was the "Bad Seed" in school. I was smarter than the teachers and I knew it. I didn't have the city miles to be thought of as an adult, but as far as ANYTHING that could be found in a book, I was more than happy to flaunt it. And if I could make the teacher look like an idiot in front of everyone else, high five! I spent so much time in the office, getting my parents called, getting in fights with students I felt superior to, being suspended. I didn't care. School bored me. I was such a little A-Hole but I got straight A's and even when I was suspended, I did every bit of a week's homework in one day and then spent a week's vacation reading comic books and playing video games. Those straight A's didn't matter when I had to repeat 2 grades for attendance and citizenship failures.

They finally solved the problem when I was 15 by putting me into an accelerated program where I was with college students and being taught as a college student and I wasn't the smart guy any more. Settled me right down when I started actually having to work for my A's. Hope this helps.

[Tien Long]

This was exactly the reason I was the "Bad Seed" in school. I was smarter than the teachers and I knew it. I didn't have the city miles to be thought of as an adult, but as far as ANYTHING that could be found in a book, I was more than happy to flaunt it. And if I could make the teacher look like an idiot in front of everyone else, high five! I spent so much time in the office, getting my parents called, getting in fights with students I felt superior to, being suspended. I didn't care. School bored me. I was such a little A-Hole but I got straight A's and even when I was suspended, I did every bit of a week's homework in one day and then spent a week's vacation reading comic books and playing video games. Those straight A's didn't matter when I had to repeat 2 grades for attendance and citizenship failures.

They finally solved the problem when I was 15 by putting me into an accelerated program where I was with college students and being taught as a college student and I wasn't the smart guy any more. Settled me right down when I started actually having to work for my A's. Hope this helps.

Definitely helps. There are attempts in education now to make sure that everyone gets the appropriate education. As a teacher, some way, some how, I have to make a lesson that satisfies the needs of a kid who has learning disabilities, is an English language learner, has behavorial or emotional problems, OR is gifted and talented. It's a big juggling act and can be overwhelming. But I'm still hopeful .

[lumusislight]

Originally Posted by Tien Long
You hit on a lot of good points here. Actually, a lot of what you said is what I'm learning for classroom management. Ideally, you shouldn't take things personally. If the kid is rude, obnoxious, sarcastic, or whatnot, returning with the same behavior just makes it worse. I've seen others, both fellow teachers and other students, fall into that. Don't be sarcastic back or try to have the last say.

As you've said, one has to be calm about these situations, and respond to such things with equanimity. And one falls back and enforces the rules and class norms to buy essays which were established previously. (even the calmest of teachers has to have some teeth). Yes, one hears these things in Eastern philosophy, but well, I think Patrick Swayze from sums up the sentiment nicely here.

What if it's the teacher who is sarcastic and rude to students? I can't say I was a "bad kid" at school, simply very talkative, and teachers' injustice made me feel irritated and outraged. I always told my teacher exactly what I felt about her, because she would humiliate us all the time. She was too emotional and angry, when we couldn't solve her "ridlles", she used to say: "Rack your brains, if you have any" and laughed with a drammatic laugh. Similar phrases were her favorites ones (about us being stupid and helpless).