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  1. #61

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    I was excited for the initial Daredevil show and was not disappointed...it was great, great acting, engaging characters, awesome storyline and then....it was over. I felt like I had my dessert first and now I had to eat the rest of my meal backwards. Jessica Jones was okay, Luke Cage i stopped at episode three and now I can't even summon internet for Iron Fist.

    Iron Fist is the brussel sprouts of the Netflix Marvel Universe :-/

    I think Netflix has just dragged on the development of the Defenders past their logical shelf life. Who (other than truly hard core fans), really cares any more? The urgency and originality of the narrative has been sucked dry. I have no interest at this point in even trying out Iron Fist to see if the early reviews are accurate. I feel that Netflix really squandered the energy and momentum that came with Daredevil....it's a shame really. The strategy of each member having their own series did not work, better to have developed a series that introduced multiple characters and arrive at the Defenders in a more timely manner.

  2. #62
    Bishop was right. Sighphi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher007 View Post
    Are some people REALLY trying to argue critical bias AGAINST Marvel, seriously? If anything, critics bend over backwards to give Marvel the benefit of the doubt. Hence why exactly NONE of the MCU films to date have gotten a flat-out negative critical reception, nor any of their TV shows either.

    So arguing "well they just went in looking for problems" seems more like fan bias.
    Iron Fist ha a bunch of hurdles. It's a rich white dude that does magical Kung Fu. Go read the Verge review on it, i couldn't finish it cause the virtue signaling was so strong. Apparently the show was supposed to discuss Danny being white and rich for some reason.

    And just because movie have gotten high scores it doesnt mean that the movies dont get attacked. Remember that Joss left twitter cause people started slamming what he did to BW.

  3. #63
    Mighty Member Mr. Mastermind's Avatar
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    Doctor Strange had a controversy about whitewashing and Asians in the MCU and it got like 90% on RT. This show sounds like a boring Arrow knockoff from the guy behind the crappy last series of Dexter.

    The racial politics of the Iron Fist character are inherently weird and uncomfortable. Saying "well no one thought it was racist in 1975" isn't a good defence. Marvel should have updated the character or not done him at all.

  4. #64
    Bishop was right. Sighphi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Mastermind View Post
    Doctor Strange had a controversy about whitewashing and Asians in the MCU and it got like 90% on RT.
    But that was countered by AO being a female. So we had a powerful female master character. Plus they had the nice excuse of China not wanting a Tibetan character also.

    This show sounds like a boring Arrow knockoff from the guy behind the crappy last series of Dexter.
    You read the Verge article, didnt you.

    The racial politics of the Iron Fist character are inherently weird and uncomfortable. Saying "well no one thought it was racist in 1975" isn't a good defence. Marvel should have updated the character or not done him at all.
    What racial politics?

    What was racist about a kid getting super powers from an alien city on earth?

  5. #65
    The Celestial Dragon Tien Long's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Mastermind View Post
    Doctor Strange had a controversy about whitewashing and Asians in the MCU and it got like 90% on RT. This show sounds like a boring Arrow knockoff from the guy behind the crappy last series of Dexter.

    The racial politics of the Iron Fist character are inherently weird and uncomfortable. Saying "well no one thought it was racist in 1975" isn't a good defence. Marvel should have updated the character or not done him at all.
    That's the thing, they did update the character. During Brubaker's run, it was established that Danny isn't the sole "white savior champion" of K'un L'un. Rather he is the modern day holder of the Iron Fist. In the past, 65 other Iron Fists came before him, 64 of whom were Asian. In issues concerning future Iron Fists, those Iron Fists are also Asian. In my mind, that means there is potential for 60+ Asian Iron Fists who can get the spotlight, either in comics or in Netflix. Thus, it hurts me to think that because of this particular controversy we might not get to see that happen because we might not get to see Iron Fist anything else in the future .

    Additionally, here is a character who for the better part of over 40 years was both best friends with an African-American, and was involved in an interracial relationship. A white Danny Rand wasn't demeaning characters like Luke Cage and Misty Knight. Additionally, these characters have been able to stand by themselves without Danny's help. So for those who say that Danny being a white savior is the only reason that non-White characters are legitimized and thus that's implicitedly saying that non-White characters are unimportant, I think those individuals are looking too closely to the issue.

    I've looked back at some of the old Iron Fist comics and yes, there are aspects of Orientalism. But there have been changes. Big ones. So, when people say Danny Rand is inherently racist, or a white savior trope, I don't think they are aware of his most recent updates.
    Last edited by Tien Long; 03-09-2017 at 08:13 PM.
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  6. #66
    Astonishing Member Arfguy's Avatar
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    I just checked RottenTomatoes and I do not know if it is the critic's choice or someone on RT's end, but the little excerpt taken from the full reviews for two of them seem to highlight that race was a significant point of contention.

    Now, I am avoiding reading any reviews, just because I am worried about spoilers. It could also be a very bad show, for all I know. I just find that very interesting that the race issue is something being a nagging issue.
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  7. #67
    Extraordinary Member Doctor Know's Avatar
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    Just now hearing about Iron Fist being savaged by critics and internet reviewers. I'm still going to watch the show, but I'm always bummed to see a CB property be received badly.


    As for the race thing revolving Danny Rand, I imagine if they had made Shang Chi the star of the show or even had him as a major supporting character, things would be different.


  8. #68
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    Daredevil and JJ were great. Luke Cage was great as well, but I felt it was way too similar to Daredevil season 1, pretty much just moving from Hell's Kitchen to Harlem, and it got to be ridiculous that no one called Murdock or Jones for help as things went on.

  9. #69
    Extraordinary Member Cyke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arfguy View Post
    I just checked RottenTomatoes and I do not know if it is the critic's choice or someone on RT's end, but the little excerpt taken from the full reviews for two of them seem to highlight that race was a significant point of contention.
    Yeah. I also have been avoiding any reviews just so that I don't come across any spoilers, but geeze, just checking out RT's numbers (which are incredible), I highly, highly doubt that they're all quote-unquote "SJWs" or motivated by some shallow PC-ness. With that many critics from across the spectrum disparaging the show based on how it's handling race (even the reviews that list race as a secondary or tertiary concern), that's a pretty big arrow pointing out that something is terribly wrong on, yes, very much racial contexts.

    Which is pretty disappointing considering how well Jessica Jones handled rape/abuse culture, Daredevil with gentrification, and Luke Cage with Black lives. I imagine the upcoming Punisher series would likewise handle PTSD and veteran care very thoughtfully. The quality of Iron Fist won't undo all the work its predecessors did, but it would leave a bad taste in the mouth that would take some time to recover from.

  10. #70
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    The issue as well with the "well there were 64 Asian IF's before him" idea is, that's not who were focusing on. They're still focusing on the one white guy, which is telling. Using Asians as background fodder is also a common trope in media.

  11. #71
    Invincible Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Know View Post
    Just now hearing about Iron Fist being savaged by critics and internet reviewers. I'm still going to watch the show, but I'm always bummed to see a CB property be received badly.


    As for the race thing revolving Danny Rand, I imagine if they had made Shang Chi the star of the show or even had him as a major supporting character, things would be different.
    Unlikely.

    If he was a sidekick, they would bring up the "MCU keeps using minorities as sidekicks!" argument (Rhodey, Sam, Mordo/Wong, and such).

    If he was a lead, it would be, "oh great, another Asian martial arts kung fu lead. Diversify the roles Hollywood!!!"

    The "movement" wouldnt be as strong, but it still would have been there for sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyke View Post
    Yeah. I also have been avoiding any reviews just so that I don't come across any spoilers, but geeze, just checking out RT's numbers (which are incredible), I highly, highly doubt that they're all quote-unquote "SJWs" or motivated by some shallow PC-ness. With that many critics from across the spectrum disparaging the show based on how it's handling race (even the reviews that list race as a secondary or tertiary concern), that's a pretty big arrow pointing out that something is terribly wrong on, yes, very much racial contexts.
    This is one problem with releasing only half a season for reviewers.

    People are judging on incomplete information.

    If you are only going to show people 6 issues, you need to make those 6 issues HIT to get that positive buzz.
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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    Daredevil and JJ were great. Luke Cage was great as well, but I felt it was way too similar to Daredevil season 1, pretty much just moving from Hell's Kitchen to Harlem, and it got to be ridiculous that no one called Murdock or Jones for help as things went on.
    I've actually seen several reviews that bring that up as an issue for this show to.

  13. #73
    BANNED Joker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tien Long View Post
    That's the thing, they did update the character. During Brubaker's run, it was established that Danny isn't the sole "white savior champion" of K'un L'un. Rather he is the modern day holder of the Iron Fist. In the past, 65 other Iron Fists came before him, 64 of whom were Asian.
    Well, except the dude who was Iron Fist right before him. He was white.

    Also, the thing that keeps getting overlooked here: K'un L'un is a fucking space ship that crashed in Asia. It's not an asian city, it's not full of asian people. It's goddamn aliens. Danny's race is fucking irrelevant when your'e talking about aliens and punching dragons in their hearts.

    Also also, K'un L'un exists on a different plane and only appears on earth, what, every ten years?

    All these problems go away if you tell the story right. Magic, Aliens... it's a comic book, these things shouldn't be problematic.

  14. #74
    Extraordinary Member Cyke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    If he was a lead, it would be, "oh great, another Asian martial arts kung fu lead. Diversify the roles Hollywood!!!"
    Not necessarily. Setting aside Iron Fist for a moment, Asians also like Asian martial arts kung fu leads. The problem is how they're written, but no one ever protests an American-made Jet Li movie (at least, not at critically). Jackie Chan is almost universally adored. Bruce Lee is forever an icon. But if an Asian American male is cast in, like, a non-action dramedy and one of the characters thinks he knows kung fu? That could be a problem.

    Into the Badlands is a much more contemporary positive example. Yeah, there's the stereotypes that come with an Asian lead, stoic, humorless, pseudo-mystical, supremely skilled -- but its critical reception among Asian American critics and audiences is rather strong because the character ends up transcending that. Even though it's not a ratings smash like the Walking Dead, it remains an important show in the American TV landscape because there are so few Asian Americans in lead roles in general. Cancel that show and you've canceled 30% of Asian American shows (of course, renew or cancel based on quality and ratings, too. but those two seem to be strong enough for now).

    Really, part of what stops diversification is cynicism towards any sort of feedback or reception. Additionally, what turns diversity into tokenism is writing based on assumptions (i.e. assuming all Asians know martial arts). But if minorities are cast (especially as leads), it's important to make them into actual, well-rounded characters with personalities, and not just some ethnic stand in. You get past those assumptions and you're open to critical feedback.
    Last edited by Cyke; 03-10-2017 at 09:58 AM.

  15. #75
    Astonishing Member The Kid's Avatar
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    I'm not a big fan of the 6 episode argument. 6 episodes is half the season. That is more than enough time to determine if a show is worth it. Hell, I usually give a show 2 episodes to grab my attention before dumping them. No one (who isn't a hardcore Marvel fan) is gonna slore through 6 crap episodes just for the possibility that the back 7 are good. There's just too much quality television for that nowadays

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