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  1. #76
    The Celestial Dragon Tien Long's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher007 View Post
    The issue as well with the "well there were 64 Asian IF's before him" idea is, that's not who were focusing on. They're still focusing on the one white guy, which is telling. Using Asians as background fodder is also a common trope in media.
    I look at it differently. Yes the focus may be on the white guy, but that also brings attention to the co-star. There may be a trope inherent in there, but the cultural climate being what it is, I'm willing to be that people would want to learn, watch, or read more of Asian Iron Fists, and perhaps have them become the star in some way, shape, or form.

    Already, we see a lot of buzz for co-star Colleen Wing. To me, that means there would be a Daughters of the Dragon series possible in the future.


    Quote Originally Posted by Joker View Post
    Well, except the dude who was Iron Fist right before him. He was white.
    I apologize if my wording was misrepresented. Still, as I said before there were 65 other Iron Fists before Danny, 64 of whom were Asian. I know that aside from Danny, Orson Randall was also Caucasian.

    Into the Badlands is a much more contemporary positive example. Yeah, there's the stereotypes that come with an Asian lead, stoic, humorless, pseudo-mystical, supremely skilled -- but its critical reception among Asian American critics and audiences is rather strong because the character ends up transcending that. Even though it's not a ratings smash like the Walking Dead, it remains an important show in the American TV landscape because there are so few Asian Americans in lead roles in general. Cancel that show and you've canceled 30% of Asian American shows (of course, renew or cancel based on quality and ratings, too. but those two seem to be strong enough for now).

    Really, part of what stops diversification is cynicism towards any sort of feedback or reception. Additionally, what turns diversity into tokenism is writing based on assumptions (i.e. assuming all Asians know martial arts). But if minorities are cast (especially as leads), it's important to make them into actual, well-rounded characters with personalities, and not just some ethnic stand in. You get past those assumptions and you're open to critical feedback.
    I agree with you, Cyke. I definitely believe that an Asian-American cast as a Kung Fu master doesn't have to fall into tropes. Into The Badlands is a good example of that, as are the characters from Avatar: The Last Airbender and Avatar: Korra. You can look at my past posts regarding this topic and I was supportive of an Asian-American being cast in this role. As an Asian-American who takes Kung Fu and knows about Chinese history, philosophy, and culture, I can certainly tell you that while those things are a part of me, I am a lot more than them. So, I can tell you first hand that an Asian taking Kung Fu doesn't have to fall into a stereotype.

    HOWEVER, while I was and still am supportive of an Asian-American Danny Rand (as well as Asian-Americans and Pacific Islanders taking roles like Karnak, Triton, and Auran in the upcoming Inhuman series and other main TV and movie roles in general), I can accept a caucausian one. I can especially accept one who for many decades has exhibited nothing but respect and acceptance of other races and cultures and appears to do so in both the "Iron Fist" and "Defenders" series.

    So for me, no, I disagree with critics who say that Danny isn't addressing racial issues. His acceptance of others and by others is more than enough for me.
    "I am a man of peace."

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  2. #77
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    To me, its telling that of the 7-8 reviews I've read so far, the 2-3 reviews I've read which didn't mention the whole 'race controversy' are relatively more positive (or at any rate, not scathingly negative) as compared to the reviews which mention the 'race controversy'.

    Its almost as though the 'race controversy' has clouded the judgement of certain reviewers to the extent that they perceive other aspects of the show (such as storytelling, direction, fight choreography etc.) as being worse than they perhaps actually are.

    The impression I get is that its a decent show with a fair bit of wasted potential and some clunky writing...but the critics have only seen 6 episodes and things might get better (a little, not much).

    Time will tell, of course. And if we get relatively more positive reviews and word-of-mouth once the show is actually released to the public, I'm confident it will expose the 'agenda', so to speak, that certain reviewers had in denouncing the show.

  3. #78
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    I didn't see a single trailer or picture, and was never excited so I am in some senses glad I am not excited.....

  4. #79
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tien Long View Post
    Latest look at Marvel's Iron Fist:



    Y'know, bad reviews and naysayers be damned, after looking at this clip, I'm still excited about the show. Maybe even more so. Colleen has me hyped.
    Colleen is fine. Did you see Finn Jones in that clip? His flips and kicks were amateurish. He literally looks like a guy that just learned some moves because he was playing Iron Fist in a TV show. Maybe that is in the beginning and he gets better but if that is the extent of his skills then I can see why they said the fights are terrible.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  5. #80
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tien Long View Post
    That's the thing, they did update the character. During Brubaker's run, it was established that Danny isn't the sole "white savior champion" of K'un L'un. Rather he is the modern day holder of the Iron Fist. In the past, 65 other Iron Fists came before him, 64 of whom were Asian. In issues concerning future Iron Fists, those Iron Fists are also Asian. In my mind, that means there is potential for 60+ Asian Iron Fists who can get the spotlight, either in comics or in Netflix. Thus, it hurts me to think that because of this particular controversy we might not get to see that happen because we might not get to see Iron Fist anything else in the future .

    Additionally, here is a character who for the better part of over 40 years was both best friends with an African-American, and was involved in an interracial relationship. A white Danny Rand wasn't demeaning characters like Luke Cage and Misty Knight. Additionally, these characters have been able to stand by themselves without Danny's help. So for those who say that Danny being a white savior is the only reason that non-White characters are legitimized and thus that's implicitedly saying that non-White characters are unimportant, I think those individuals are looking too closely to the issue.

    I've looked back at some of the old Iron Fist comics and yes, there are aspects of Orientalism. But there have been changes. Big ones. So, when people say Danny Rand is inherently racist, or a white savior trope, I don't think they are aware of his most recent updates.
    So wait there are 64 Asian Iron Fists but the Marvel comic is about the one that is white? Pause for a second and think about the implications there?

    I don't even want to wade into the SJW debate but the above doesn't really help combat the argument that Danny Rand is cultural appropriation at its most blatant.

    In any event, the biggest problem with the show from the bits and pieces I've seen so far is that Finn Jones is no Danny Rand. The dude looks like a rank amateur. I've seen white belts that are more convincing sparing. They needed a guy that could actually pull off being considered the greatest martial artist in the MU. I'm not seeing that in the trailers. Dafne Keen who played X-23 looks more athletic than Finn Jones does in those clips.
    Last edited by remydat; 03-10-2017 at 05:06 PM.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Know View Post
    As for the race thing revolving Danny Rand, I imagine if they had made Shang Chi the star of the show or even had him as a major supporting character, things would be different.
    Well, they have Colleen Wing costarring, except fanboys seem to bothered about her looking Asian and not having red hair to acknowledge that.

  7. #82
    Fantastic Member Bolo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Colleen is fine. Did you see Finn Jones in that clip? His flips and kicks were amateurish. He literally looks like a guy that just learned some moves because he was playing Iron Fist in a TV show. Maybe that is in the beginning and he gets better but if that is the extent of his skills then I can see why they said the fights are terrible.
    Well I'm pretty sure it's not Finn Jones; but his stunt double David Armstrong, and lol to call him amateurish; see yourself:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ji-5cM4HUhs

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUDNLW8nU7I
    Last edited by Bolo; 03-10-2017 at 06:36 PM.

  8. #83
    The Celestial Dragon Tien Long's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    So wait there are 64 Asian Iron Fists but the Marvel comic is about the one that is white? Pause for a second and think about the implications there?

    I don't even want to wade into the SJW debate but the above doesn't really help combat the argument that Danny Rand is cultural appropriation at its most blatant.
    There seems to be some confusion over a couple of terms here. I'm not referring to "cultural appropriation" but rather the "white savior" trope. As I understand it, the notion of the white savior is that of a white person proves himself to be the lone, single champion of a non-white culture or people. The implication is that white people are better than the non-whites.

    However, as I mentioned, Danny has not been the lone, simple champion of this non-white culture. There have been 64 non-white people who have proven themselves to be the best. There will be one more non-white person in the future who will prove himself to be best. Danny is merely the current example of this. He is not unique, but rather part of a long chain.

    As for the focus on a white guy, I don't mind it. I have never seen a white Danny Rand being Iron Fist as saying to me, a Chinese-American, that white people are better than Asians. Rather, I was proud that someone, finally, was saying that my culture was important and presenting it to a wider stage. It wasn't too long ago that Chinese closed their culture off to foreigners (and have seen this personally). It wasn't too long along when white people mocked and ridiculed Chinese culture. So, for me, seeing Iron Fist use elements of Chinese culture and present them in such a creative way made me so happy.

    So yes, I'd like to have a focus on someone like Danny. He is not some arrogant, white person who laughs at the ignorant brown, black, and yellow people. On the contrary, he has always been respectful and accepting of the other.

    Now, I know that respect of culture is not racial diversity. While I'm respectful of who Danny is, I know that there are MANY examples of culturally accepting white people in the media. As a Asian-American, I do what focus on people of different races, ethnicities, and sexualities. Hearing that Ken Leung and Mike Moh will be the new Karnak and Triton respectively made me very happy. And I can't tell you have happy I am that Asian-American superheroes are getting a focus in the Totally Awesome Hulk series (which everyone should be reading by the way). I know the struggles that Asian-Americans have in media because many of my Asian-American friends are struggling actors, directors, and producers who are trying to make it in this tough business. I've posted in the past asking, pleading, and supporting an Asian-American Jason Bourne, Robin, Nightwing, Namor, and Danny Rand on my movie and television screen.

    So, that's me, I'll always build people up. But a white Danny Rand who respects my culture and other people? No, I won't tear him down.

    In any event, the biggest problem with the show from the bits and pieces I've seen so far is that Finn Jones is no Danny Rand. The dude looks like a rank amateur. I've seen white belts that are more convincing sparing. They needed a guy that could actually pull off being considered the greatest martial artist in the MU. I'm not seeing that in the trailers. Dafne Keen who played X-23 looks more athletic than Finn Jones does in those clips.
    If the rest of the fighting is crap, then it's crap. I'm more than willing to accept that. I've said that perhaps Lewis Tan could have made better choice to be Danny since he has 10+ years of martial arts experience. Maybe if there is an Iron Fist season 2, the martial arts will improve. Again, I'll make the call with the rest of the season.
    "I am a man of peace."

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  9. #84
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolo View Post
    Well I'm pretty sure it's not Finn Jones; but his stunt double David Armstrong, and lol to call him amateurish; see yourself:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ji-5cM4HUhs

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUDNLW8nU7I
    Ok and when he does **** like that in the show then it might look good. That's not what's in the trailers.

    A stunt double only does **** when their face can't be seen which is a problem in itself. You need an actor that is actually physical and good enough so that 90% of the fight scene isn't hiding the dudes face.

    In the trailers you can see occassions where it's Jones throwing the kicks or punches and he looks like an amateur.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  10. #85
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tien Long View Post
    There seems to be some confusion over a couple of terms here. I'm not referring to "cultural appropriation" but rather the "white savior" trope. As I understand it, the notion of the white savior is that of a white person proves himself to be the lone, single champion of a non-white culture or people. The implication is that white people are better than the non-whites.

    However, as I mentioned, Danny has not been the lone, simple champion of this non-white culture. There have been 64 non-white people who have proven themselves to be the best. There will be one more non-white person in the future who will prove himself to be best. Danny is merely the current example of this. He is not unique, but rather part of a long chain.

    As for the focus on a white guy, I don't mind it. I have never seen a white Danny Rand being Iron Fist as saying to me, a Chinese-American, that white people are better than Asians. Rather, I was proud that someone, finally, was saying that my culture was important and presenting it to a wider stage. It wasn't too long ago that Chinese closed their culture off to foreigners (and have seen this personally). It wasn't too long along when white people mocked and ridiculed Chinese culture. So, for me, seeing Iron Fist use elements of Chinese culture and present them in such a creative way made me so happy.

    So yes, I'd like to have a focus on someone like Danny. He is not some arrogant, white person who laughs at the ignorant brown, black, and yellow people. On the contrary, he has always been respectful and accepting of the other.

    Now, I know that respect of culture is not racial diversity. While I'm respectful of who Danny is, I know that there are MANY examples of culturally accepting white people in the media. As a Asian-American, I do what focus on people of different races, ethnicities, and sexualities. Hearing that Ken Leung and Mike Moh will be the new Karnak and Triton respectively made me very happy. And I can't tell you have happy I am that Asian-American superheroes are getting a focus in the Totally Awesome Hulk series (which everyone should be reading by the way). I know the struggles that Asian-Americans have in media because many of my Asian-American friends are struggling actors, directors, and producers who are trying to make it in this tough business. I've posted in the past asking, pleading, and supporting an Asian-American Jason Bourne, Robin, Nightwing, Namor, and Danny Rand on my movie and television screen.

    So, that's me, I'll always build people up. But a white Danny Rand who respects my culture and other people? No, I won't tear him down.



    If the rest of the fighting is crap, then it's crap. I'm more than willing to accept that. I've said that perhaps Lewis Tan could have made better choice to be Danny since he has 10+ years of martial arts experience. Maybe if there is an Iron Fist season 2, the martial arts will improve. Again, I'll make the call with the rest of the season.
    I wasn't commenting of the white savior trope. I was commenting on the fact that in defending the white savior trope, you just provided a statement that shows how blatant the cultural appropriation is. Focusing on the one white dude that became Iron Fist seems problematic if there were 64 Asians ones.

    I'm not even commenting on the the casting of the movie. I'm commenting on the character itself. The character was created in a world where a guy like Bruce Lee had to play sidekick or lose out to David Carradine for roles because he was Asian.

    That is the genesis for why some people don't like the idea of Danny Rand the character. It's more than the white savior trope. It's the idea that you want to borrow all sorts of elements from a culture but then don't want your story to star someone from that culture.

    Of course for people that like the character that doesn't concern them nor should it really. If you can look past the blatant cultural appropriation then do you. But others are also entitled to look at a character like Rand and decide they don't like what he represents. To each his her own.

    As for me personally I don't want to watch a martial arts movie staring a shitty martial artist nor do I want to watch an Iron Fist story where all the mysticism is downplayed.

    I think the misstep here is Daredevil has pretty stellar martial arts and already covered the Hand. So Iron Fist needs to elevate the martial arts and the mysticism otherwise he just becomes a poor man's Daredevil without the benefit of a mask to hide if a stunt double is being used.

    If the reviews are correct and that is what we end up with then I'm out but you are free to still enjoy it. We don't have to agree or have the same tolerance level for shitty martial arts.
    Last edited by remydat; 03-10-2017 at 07:47 PM.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joker View Post
    Brittany Spears sold millions of records. Doesn't make her music good.
    Except the critically, DD season 2 rated high.
    I don't know what Britney Spears has to do with that.

  12. #87
    Incredible Member regg215's Avatar
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    While I obviously have not seen the show, it does appear that most of the reviews are biased because Danny Rand is played by a white guy. If that only popped up in one or two reviews I would not really think anything of it but because in almost every review they mention it I have to believe that it plays a role in the review. This show very well could be terrible, obviously I have not seen it but when most of the review seems to be clouded by a pre-conceived anger that the character is white, it is hard to take the reviews at face value. The reviews seem to be overly negative with the reviewers going out of their way to trash every single aspect of the show even stuff that is comic accurate, some that I have seen say stuff like " we don't need another billionaire superhero" while yes we have quite a few billionaire superheros running around, that aspect is comic accurate and complaining about that in an iron fist show would be like complaining that batman has batarangs in a batman film. I have to say that this reminds me a little of some of the reviews from Batman V Superman, where it seemed like there was an attitude of wanting to dislike the movie from the reviewers. If you want to hate something you can pretty much just look for the flaws and ignore anything good with almost any movie/show.
    "You know, there are some words I've known since I was a schoolboy: "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.. The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged"- CAPT. Picard

  13. #88
    The Celestial Dragon Tien Long's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    I wasn't commenting of the white savior trope. I was commenting on the fact that in defending the white savior trope, you just provided a statement that shows how blatant the cultural appropriation is. Focusing on the one white dude that became Iron Fist seems problematic if there were 64 Asians ones.

    I'm not even commenting on the the casting of the movie. I'm commenting on the character itself. The character was created in a world where a guy like Bruce Lee had to play sidekick or lose out to David Carradine for roles because he was Asian.

    That is the genesis for why some people don't like the idea of Danny Rand the character. It's more than the white savior trope. It's the idea that you want to borrow all sorts of elements from a culture but then don't want your story to star someone from that culture.

    Of course for people that like the character that doesn't concern them nor should it really. If you can look past the blatant cultural appropriation then do you. But others are also entitled to look at a character like Rand and decide they don't like what he represents. To each his her own.
    I am appreciative of these comments remy, because they do give me things to think about. As for the idea of the cultural appropriation behind Iron Fist, I'll concede certain attitudes of the time. I know about David Carradine being favored over Bruce Lee. Thus, it's been hard for me to watch old episode of Kung Fu. However, I don't believe that Iron Fist was motivated out of that idea. Going to a foreign land, experiencing a different culture, becoming a Kung Fu master, those seem to be the motivating factors. In Hong Kong, I saw many foreigners, do this when they came to visit my sifu. I don't know what Gil Kane was thinking when he first wrote Iron Fist, but I dare say it was bred out of spirit of exploring and experiencing the other (which all of us, white, black, Asian, Latino, Middle Eastern, etc. have), not out of a dislike of having an Asian in a starring role.

    Because if Marvel were truly like that, taking elements of Chinese culture but not want a Chinese starring in it, then we would not have Shang-Chi. Granted, those Shang-Chi comics from the 1970s have their own Orientalist overtones, but at the end of the day, it stars a Chinese hero doing heroic things.

    Still, if you feel that Iron Fist is cultural appropriation, then remy, I respect your view. We both can agree to disagree. It just pains me that my favorite hero hurts you and others.

    As for me personally I don't want to watch a martial arts movie staring a shitty martial artist nor do I want to watch an Iron Fist story where all the mysticism is downplayed.

    I think the misstep here is Daredevil has pretty stellar martial arts and already covered the Hand. So Iron Fist needs to elevate the martial arts and the mysticism otherwise he just becomes a poor man's Daredevil without the benefit of a mask to hide if a stunt double is being used.

    If the reviews are correct and that is what we end up with then I'm out but you are free to still enjoy it. We don't have to agree or have the same tolerance level for shitty martial arts.
    If the martial arts are crap, then it's crap. But yeah, we don't have to have the same degree of tolerance for crap. And I'll agree with you, I think there should be more emphasis on the mysticism of Iron Fist. Personally, I wanted the legacy and the Immortal Cities to be highlighted because those are the elements that brought in a lot of Iron Fist fans.
    Last edited by Tien Long; 03-10-2017 at 08:52 PM.
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  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by regg215 View Post
    While I obviously have not seen the show, it does appear that most of the reviews are biased because Danny Rand is played by a white guy. If that only popped up in one or two reviews I would not really think anything of it but because in almost every review they mention it I have to believe that it plays a role in the review. This show very well could be terrible, obviously I have not seen it but when most of the review seems to be clouded by a pre-conceived anger that the character is white, it is hard to take the reviews at face value. The reviews seem to be overly negative with the reviewers going out of their way to trash every single aspect of the show even stuff that is comic accurate, some that I have seen say stuff like " we don't need another billionaire superhero" while yes we have quite a few billionaire superheros running around, that aspect is comic accurate and complaining about that in an iron fist show would be like complaining that batman has batarangs in a batman film. I have to say that this reminds me a little of some of the reviews from Batman V Superman, where it seemed like there was an attitude of wanting to dislike the movie from the reviewers. If you want to hate something you can pretty much just look for the flaws and ignore anything good with almost any movie/show.
    Exactly.

    Its what happens when racial politics seeps into...everything.

  15. #90
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    I wasn't commenting of the white savior trope. I was commenting on the fact that in defending the white savior trope, you just provided a statement that shows how blatant the cultural appropriation is. Focusing on the one white dude that became Iron Fist seems problematic if there were 64 Asians ones.

    I'm not even commenting on the the casting of the movie. I'm commenting on the character itself. The character was created in a world where a guy like Bruce Lee had to play sidekick or lose out to David Carradine for roles because he was Asian.

    That is the genesis for why some people don't like the idea of Danny Rand the character. It's more than the white savior trope. It's the idea that you want to borrow all sorts of elements from a culture but then don't want your story to star someone from that culture.


    Of course for people that like the character that doesn't concern them nor should it really. If you can look past the blatant cultural appropriation then do you. But others are also entitled to look at a character like Rand and decide they don't like what he represents. To each his her own.
    Here is the issue with that...

    First, the only two living Iron Fists happen to be white. One of them only happens to be alive because of being an Iron Fist.

    As for the idea that you are focusing on the "White" Iron Fists, that falls apart rather quickly when you factor in that they have told the stories of multiple non-"White" Iron Fists.

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