SuperWoman #8 Discuss (Spoilers!)

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

If Indeed Nuperman was Superman Red and the current guy is Blue, then you could take the opportunity to clarify some of the merkiness of Supes back story over the 2000's. you could say that because Supes was incomplete, the universe kept trying to rewrite his history, particularly his Origin, to somehow compensate for the imbalance that resulted from their split. That would explain how we got the Loeb/Kelly attempted retcon , BIRTHRIGHT, the initial undefined and vague Post INFINITE CRISIS origin, SECRET ORIGIN and NEW 52 origin reboots/ resets over the decades between 2001-2011. Heck you could also toss Byrne's Origin and Perhaps even EARTH ONE as attempts for the universe to attempt to " fix" Supes.

Having Nuperman merge with Superdad wouldn't have to drastically alter the present or the past to a significant degree. Just use it as an opportunity to unclutter Superman's origin , Perhaps just return to a variation of the Pre- 1986 bronze age version of his origin with a few minor tweaks, have 80-90 percent of his pre and post 1986 history return essentially verbatim ( again with minor tweaks where appropriate for the sake of Simplification) , have Supes remember his time as Nuperman as just one of his crazy phases in his crazy life , and move on . Perhaps have Supes remember the constant Origin reboots as just one long weird time in his life. You don't have to mirror preFlashpoint one to one, nor do you have to overtly toss anything out. It'll all be there to reference in future stories if a future writer wants to utilize something from the 2011-2016 era .

Say for instance someone decides to bring back H'EL. Just make a reference to Supes remembering encountering him during a very odd time in his life, have the obligatory editors footnote saying something to the effect of " as seen way back in SUPERMAN ( New 52 series) # 23!" No muss, no fuss.

Yeah, I would prefer something like this. It keeps pretty much everything, literally everything in continuity. Just treat the New 52 as this "House of M" phase of Superman's life where he didn't remember he was married to Lois and didn't remember some of his rogues the way they were, but now he has those memories back. A writer would then be able to call upon any and every story from Superman's 75+ year publishing history in order to tell future stories.

[Superlad93]

[/QUOTE]

This is interesting. Tempus can still see the New 52 Superman's future.....yet he is gone. He also can't fully see Mr. El's future. He also describes them both as "echos." By definition, echos are reverberations that come from a singular source.

And we know that, going forward from Reborn on, Superdad will not only be Superman but he will live as Clark Kent. If the New 52 Superman will still be around to accomplish things, then why would he give up his family and friends? It would make no sense.

Now also take into account what happened in Superwoman

The only reasonable explanation is that the New 52's accomplishments still happen is because Mr. El and he become "whole" again, and go on to accomplish them. And I'm sure that Superdad mixing with the New 52 Superman will clear up his future.


Anyone can disagree with me if they like, but as Wednesday is my witness, we will see a merging of Supermen. I won't go into a long debate. I'll just leave this here, and wait till Reborn is over.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Anyone can disagree with me if they like, but as Wednesday is my witness, we will see a merging of Supermen. I won't go into a long debate. I'll just leave this here, and wait till Reborn is over.

Nobody is saying we won't probably see a merger or something along those lines. The only thing that's unclear is how it will impact Superman's memories or continuity. As manofsteel1979 said, it could be that Superman will from Reborn onwards just remember the New 52 portion of his life as some "wacky time" when he forgot his real life (his marriage, his villains, other Supers, important arcs) or as a time when Superman Red was split off from him doing his own thing. Something like that would keep literally everything in continuity.

Plus, it would allow Clark to still play the role in Rebirth that he's been pretty much poised to play since the beginning. The role of the guy who "remembers everything" as opposed to the other guys.

[Superlad93]

Nobody is saying we won't probably see a merger or something along those lines.

Actually, weren't you saying that the most likely thing that would happen would be that Superdad would just explain to people that he and Nuperman are technically the same man because he's finds out that this is his world but altered. That doesn't sound like a merger.

And the interesting thing is, he's already told them that they're the same man in JL here



Or did I misread/interpret?

The only thing that's unclear is how it will impact Superman's memories or continuity.

Yup, that's my big question.

As manofsteel1979 said, it could be that Superman will from Reborn onwards just remember the New 52 portion of his life as some "wacky time" when he forgot his real life (his marriage, his villains, other Supers, important arcs) or as a time when Superman Red was split off from him doing his own thing. Something like that would keep literally everything in continuity.

I actually think his New 52 timeline as we know it will be almost completely erased.......and it'll make PERFECT sense in relation to the New 52 Superman's story.

Here's why: so, I don't know if you read Morriosn's Action Comics or not, but in it we find out that the reason Superman's life was changed even beyond Flahspoint's influences was because of Mxy's rival named Vyn. Vyn went in and basically killed the Kent thus setting off a domino effect in Clark's life that made him into what he was for better or worse. Though, it is made clear a number of times in the run that Clark could've and more than likely would've been something almost completely identical to the Pre-52 Superman had Vyn not killed his parents.

This is a vision of what Nuperman wished his life was like back in Morrison's run. Notice how the basics are FAR closer to Pre-52. The only think that's really changed are the aesthetics (ie the suit and the look of his friends).




I'm thinking that going forward we're going to have a past that is closer to this ideal version ie the Pre-52 one because that's what his life would've been without Vyn's attack.

So ihe wouldn't even remember his New 52 life as anything. He'd have his new/old idealized pre-52 origin.

[Superlad93]

And the great part is that in addition to giving Superdad back his place in the world, this will also act as a sort of reward for Nuperman and all he's done.




He finally gets the life he was supposed to have. He finally gets back what he "lost"--the life of his dreams. This would make a pretty satisfying conclusion and new beginning for both Supermen, imo.

[durabill]

Nobody is saying we won't probably see a merger or something along those lines. The only thing that's unclear is how it will impact Superman's memories or continuity. As manofsteel1979 said, it could be that Superman will from Reborn onwards just remember the New 52 portion of his life as some "wacky time" when he forgot his real life (his marriage, his villains, other Supers, important arcs) or as a time when Superman Red was split off from him doing his own thing. Something like that would keep literally everything in continuity.

Plus, it would allow Clark to still play the role in Rebirth that he's been pretty much poised to play since the beginning. The role of the guy who "remembers everything" as opposed to the other guys.

I'm saying I'm not sold on a merger.
The same way I wasn't sold on fake Clark being Superman Prime.
The writers are doing there job crafting an amazing story.

Now a merger is possible but I don't see the point. New52 Supes and Superman led very different lives that IMO don't mesh together very well.
I fail to see how merging into a so-called Ultimate Superman is suppose to be better and less convoluted.

Lois : Remember when you got infected with the Doomsday virus.
Superman: Oh yeah I was also sleeping with Wonder Woman, and living with Jimmy Olsen at the time while still being married and having a kid with you.

Like I said earlier I'm getting massive OMD vibes from that scenario.

If anything Superman Blue is OZ with all the reality altering Blue flames/orbs he's been shooting around.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

If anything Superman Blue is OZ with all the reality altering Blue flames/orbs he's been shooting around.

So, what would that make our current Superman?

IF Superman Red/Blue actually don't have anything to do with it, maybe Nuperman will just be revealed to be a complete and utter copy, a clone created by Oz, who had implanted memories and memories of him were implanted in everyone around him. Then, it would just clear the path for the Clark we know to just be the true Superman.

[Atomic Man]

The merger will really be a "re-merger" resulting from a retconning of the New 52 Superman's experiences (those that fit with the larger history of Pre-Flashpoint) as simply parts of the same history of ONE Superman.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Actually, weren't you saying that the most likely thing that would happen would be that Superdad would just explain to people that he and Nuperman are technically the same man because he's finds out that this is his world but altered. That doesn't sound like a merger.

And the interesting thing is, he's already told them that they're the same man in JL here



Or did I misread/interpret?

I think you misinterpreted. In that scene, Clark still thinks he's from a separate Earth. So, I think he's saying that he's essentially the same guy who's just loved a separate life on another Earth, but he's about to find out that its NOT a separate Earth.

I actually think his New 52 timeline as we know it will be almost completely erased.......and it'll make PERFECT sense in relation to the New 52 Superman's story.

Here's why: so, I don't know if you read Morriosn's Action Comics or not, but in it we find out that the reason Superman's life was changed even beyond Flahspoint's influences was because of Mxy's rival named Vyn. Vyn went in and basically killed the Kent thus setting off a domino effect in Clark's life that made him into what he was for better or worse. Though, it is made clear a number of times in the run that Clark could've and more than likely would've been something almost completely identical to the Pre-52 Superman had Vyn not killed his parents.

This is a vision of what Nuperman wished his life was like back in Morrison's run. Notice how the basics are FAR closer to Pre-52. The only think that's really changed are the aesthetics (ie the suit and the look of his friends).

I'm thinking that going forward we're going to have a past that is closer to this ideal version ie the Pre-52 one because that's what his life would've been without Vyn's attack.

So ihe wouldn't even remember his New 52 life as anything. He'd have his new/old idealized pre-52 origin.

Maybe. But we've seen from solicits and such that the stuff from Superman's time in Hamilton is still, well, there. And if Superman's New 52 timeline were to be erased, that would also mean that several other New 52 developments would have to be erased because Superman, being Superman, touches almost all corners of the DCU. But, again, we've seen a lot of those developments keep after Reborn. If your theory is correct, for example, it would mean Superman no longer remembering that there were any other Justice Leagues before the one with Cyborg in the place of Martian Manhunter. I don't think anyone wants that.

I don't know what'll happen. But one of two possibilities MIGHT happen: (1) Superman is Blue to Nuperman's Red, Red gets absorbed back into Superman, but Superman still remembers his Pre-Flashpoint life and Mxy changes it so everyone else remembers that life, so basically just retconning Nuperman/New 52 into the adventures of Superman Red. (2) Superman and Nuperman are retconned as always being one and the same and Nuperman was just the result of time tampering by Dr. Manhattan.

[Superlad93]

I think you misinterpreted. In that scene, Clark still thinks he's from a separate Earth. So, I think he's saying that he's essentially the same guy who's just loved a separate life on another Earth, but he's about to find out that its NOT a separate Earth.

It seems unlikely that they'd have this scene and then also make him come back to the League and say "oh, and as an amendment to my last statement: I know now SUPER know that we and the other guy were the same man." That seems at little anticlimactic for everyone involved.

Maybe. But we've seen from solicits and such that the stuff from Superman's time in Hamilton is still, well, there. And if Superman's New 52 timeline were to be erased, that would also mean that several other New 52 developments would have to be erased because Superman, being Superman, touches almost all corners of the DCU. But, again, we've seen a lot of those developments keep after Reborn. If your theory is correct, for example, it would mean Superman no longer remembering that there were any other Justice Leagues before the one with Cyborg in the place of Martian Manhunter. I don't think anyone wants that.

Again, this falls under the umbrella of me not knowing the details of in regards to how they'll setting the history. We don't no how this "idealized" newer-untampered-by-Vyn-pre-mixed-with-new-52 version of Superman's life will go. As you say, there are elements of the New 52 that still stand (just like with Wally).

But, Wally's history with the Titans changed. The other Titans remember this new version of history that is closer to Pre-52 but not.

I don't know what'll happen. But one of two possibilities MIGHT happen: (1) Superman is Blue to Nuperman's Red, Red gets absorbed back into Superman, but Superman still remembers his Pre-Flashpoint life and Mxy changes it so everyone else remembers that life, so basically just retconning Nuperman/New 52 into the adventures of Superman Red. (2) Superman and Nuperman are retconned as always being one and the same and Nuperman was just the result of time tampering by Dr. Manhattan.

I doubt it's option 1. 2 seems most likely since Tempus clearly states that the New 52 Superman will somehow have clear continued adventures even though he doesn't seem to be here, and we know he's not coming back. And he calls Superdad's past an "echo." An echo has a source. It is not THE source. Both at different points are called echos. They'll likely add up to a source.

[durabill]

So, what would that make our current Superman?

IF Superman Red/Blue actually don't have anything to do with it, maybe Nuperman will just be revealed to be a complete and utter copy, a clone created by Oz, who had implanted memories and memories of him were implanted in everyone around him. Then, it would just clear the path for the Clark we know to just be the true Superman.

Exactly!!!!!

according to OZ he taught him that a Superman gets back up after being knocked down.

That's why I'm not 100% on a merger

That and the writers love to set up big red herrings.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

It seems unlikely that they'd have this scene and then also make him come back to the League and say "oh, and as an amendment to my last statement: I know now SUPER know that we and the other guy were the same man." That seems at little anticlimactic for everyone involved.

I think you're taking that line too literally. I mean, its just a throwaway line. Also, it wouldn't really be anticlimactic. If Superman comes to the rest of the League and tells them "guys, it turns out that I was never a different Superman, but that YOU guys have all forgotten the way your lives truly were" that doesn't seem anti-climactic. It would move the Rebirth plot forward.

Again, this falls under the umbrella of me not knowing the details of in regards to how they'll setting the history. We don't no how this "idealized" newer-untampered-by-Vyn-pre-mixed-with-new-52 version of Superman's life will go. As you say, there are elements of the New 52 that still stand (just like with Wally).

But those details of Wally's life are the way they are only because of Dr. Manhattan and we don't necessarily know if all the memories of Wally the OTHER Titans and Barry have are the memories that Wally has or if Wally has a separate line of memories (the Pre-Flashpoint ones) of the way the world should be.

Plus, I really doubt they'll be tying it all into the Grant Morrison Action Comics at all, so I don't know if what Grant wrote will really amount to anything. All that stuff was waaaaay before they made the decision to bring back Pre-FP Superman. And, I think DC has gotten the message (or at least I HOPE) that the fans do NOT want them to construct a new timeline for Superman that isn't what we've read of his past over the past however many decades. Like, people are completely and utterly fed up with it.

The things people like about this Superman is that he is 100% pre-Flashpoint. He remembers that Cyborg's a Titan and that Manhunter's a Leaguer and that there have been several iterations of the League over the years and that Batman and Robin fought a guy once where Batman dressed up in a rainbow suit. In other words, they like that THIS is the Superman who lived through the Silver Age, then the Bronze Age, then the Modern Age. That those stories are his life. People are fine with plugging in a new origin in front of all those stories every so often (even Marvel does that), but they DON'T like having stories of the characters' adventures over the past decades discounted or shuffled around. So, trying to make a "brand new" Superman who is somehow a composite of both Pre-FP and Nuperman is just inviting more trouble. Its better to just say that the New 52 was just a period in Clark's life when he didn't remember who he truly was like a House of M-type phase or just the adventures of Superman Red and leave it at that.

But, Wally's history with the Titans changed. The other Titans remember this new version of history that is closer to Pre-52 but not.

Yeah, but Wally remembers the Pre-New 52 almost verbatim. I mean, his memories include things that are taken straight out of Waid's run and Flash: Rebirth and COIE.

I doubt it's option 1. 2 seems most likely since Tempus clearly states that the New 52 Superman will somehow have clear continued adventures even though he doesn't seem to be here, and we know he's not coming back. And he calls Superdad's past an "echo." An echo has a source. It is not THE source. Both at different points are called echos. They'll likely add up to a source.

I think you're interpreting Tempus's comment a little too literally.

I mean, wouldn't Nuperman's adventures technically continue if he simply was absorbed back into Superman, as Red going back into Blue's body?

Plus, there is the whole thing about Mr. Oz apparently having "taught" Nuperman. How do we know the reveal won't be that Nuperman and NuLois were simply clones/constructs created by Mr. Oz with implanted memories and then Oz implanted the memory of them in everyone else's heads?

[Superlad93]

Honestly, I don't know what's gonna happen after Reborn. The only thing that I'm sure of is that both Supermen will become one.

Superman could remember everything from Pre-52 for all I know. And I'd be fine with it.

I can't stress enough that I'm only postulating. I mean, the solicits for Supergirl and Superwoman seem to indicate that not much has changed continuity-wise. But then the solicitation and cover for Action seems to suggest that maybe some stuff has.

Honestly, I'd love to keep as much of the continuity we have intact. Supergirl says that "Superman and Supergirl meet again for the first time." That seems to suggest that a lot of Rebirth continuity is still there. Or maybe it's a meta thing, and it's for the people reading, but the characters themselves won't treat it as a first meeting. Or maybe Supergirl doesn't see it as a first meeting, but Clark does? There's a lot of possibility

I don't hold strong to any one thoery to the point where I won't accept something else when it comes along. So long as the internal logic of the story is strong, then I'm good.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Honestly, I don't know what's gonna happen after Reborn. The only thing that I'm sure of is that both Supermen will become one.

Superman could remember everything from Pre-52 for all I know. And I'd be fine with it.

I can't stress enough that I'm only postulating. I mean, the solicits for Supergirl and Superwoman seem to indicate that not much has changed continuity-wise. But then the solicitation and cover for Action seems to suggest that maybe some stuff has.

I don't hold strong to any one thoery to the point where I won't accept something else when it comes along. So long as the internal logic of the story is strong, then I'm good.

Oh, yeah, I completely agree with you. I'm just saying that constructing a new timeline for Superman would not do much for moving the plot line of Rebirth forward. And it would also be more of something that Superman fans are sick to death of. If I'm wrong about this, I'm wrong, but I don't know why DC should make things more convoluted. Just say that Nuperman's adventures were like House of M-type period of Clark's life when he was "altered" by Dr. Manhattan, but now he's unaltered and remembers his real life, the one he was living before 2011, and will seek to fix the DCU.

OR they could pull a huge OMD-type retcon and just say that everything that was canon in Superman comics before 2011 is canon again except Jon was now just chilling in the background.

I don't know. Its anyone's game at this point.

[Korath]

I'm thinking that going forward we're going to have a past that is closer to this ideal version ie the Pre-52 one because that's what his life would've been without Vyn's attack.

So ihe wouldn't even remember his New 52 life as anything. He'd have his new/old idealized pre-52 origin.

It may seems strange but... are we sure that it is Lois in the last panel ? I guess it is, but with Metropolis teeming with super-powered people and some seriously Kryptonian's looking additions, it could be just as well be Wonder Woman. Has the author gone out and revealed that it was Lois or is it just the common vision of the fanbase ?