SuperWoman #8 Discuss (Spoilers!)

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

Superman's been around for so long and been so many things, that I don't think which version (s) you dislike or dislike make you illegitimate as a fan.

If you're only a fan of Superman:TAS, or Earth-One, or Super Friends, and dislike the most critically acclaimed Superman stories like All-Star, I don't think you're any less a fan of Superman. I do think that you like some of the worst things Superman has been, but that's my perspective of those versions of Superman and those stories. Because as I said, Superman has been many things, some of that is good, some of that is bad, and it's all Superman whether it's consistent with what came before or not.

It's like The Simpsons.

I'm a fan of The Simpsons, but only the first 10 seasons. I think after that the series became awful. There are other people that love The Simpsons as they've been for years now, season 11 and onward, some of them dislike the old seasons and some of them have no interest in ever watching the old seasons.

We disagree on a lot, but neither of us are lesser fans of The Simpsons, or illegitimate fans.

[_Feely_]

Superman's been around for so long and been so many things, that I don't think which version (s) you like or dislike make you illegitimate as a fan.

If you're only a fan of Superman:TAS, or Earth-One, or Super Friends, and dislike the most critically acclaimed Superman stories like All-Star, I don't think you're any less a fan of Superman. I do think that you like some of the worst things Superman has been, but that's my perspective of those versions of Superman and those stories. Because as I said, Superman has been many things, some of that is good, some of that is bad, and it's all Superman whether it's consistent with what came before or not.

This guy gets its.

[DCJdog]

Well I must be a freak Because I love iconic classic Superman, enjoyed New 52 Superman when he actually was being written well AND I enjoyed MOS, BvS for what they were AND I am enjoying most of the Superline since last Summer.

I actually think different takes can work across different media. Go figure.

This.

I have been very critical of the nu52 and was turned off by it. But it was mainly because of the way D.C. handled the transition into the nu52. However, with Rebirth, I am looking forward to going back and reading stuff I missed out on like Morrison's run on Action.

D.C.'s multiverse is its strength and I am glad that they are making a way for it to exist. It gives writers a big world and lots of characters. I am probably one of the few that actually enjoyed Superman Beyond in Final Crisis with all of the various Superman's and their interactions.

[superduperman]

After having read it, I have to say I think Lana summed up the entire history of the DCU better than anyone else ever has! Yes, the entire universe does, in fact, revolve around Superman and Lois and everyone else essentially gets thrown under the bus in the process. It sounds like Jimenez is venting here but it's kind of hard to argue that he's wrong.

[Atomic Man]

EXACTLY!! I love seeing the newer graphic art style applied to the classic uniforms, it's not like everyone has to draw him like Curt Swan or something (as much as I love Curt swan btw). I'm sure there are some newer artists that are bummed they can't put their spin on the uniform and have to draw these editorial mandated costumes. Thankfully the bias against them within the industry seems to have mostly dissipated since the new 52 days.

Thankfully, there seems to be a willingness at DC now to not only return to the iconic nature of their characters and universe, but also the classic looks. I'm hoping that leads to the return of the classic uniform for Superman and the oval for The Batman. Morrison and Finch's Batman Inc suit was beautiful; inspired by the 89 suit with that awesome light-up symbol.

Well I must be a freak Because I love iconic classic Superman, enjoyed New 52 Superman when he actually was being written well AND I enjoyed MOS, BvS for what they were AND I am enjoying most of the Superline since last Summer.

I actually think different takes can work across different media. Go figure.

First of all, you are far from a freak. I also enjoyed New 52 Superman under Morrison's pen. As for different media, here's my main problem with MoS. DC decided to get people who were more interested in deconstruction, "realism" and putting their own stamp on Superman than finally updating the iconic Superman for the 21st century. I went into that movie with high hopes, having forgiven a lot: the ugly suit (though I love that symbol), the fact that there wasn't going to be a love triangle, the fact that there was a darker tone than previous takes. What I couldn't forgive was upon seeing the movie was that it wasn't Superman, but rather, a deconstructed version of the character. Is that fine for Elseworlds or animation? Sure. Is it at all acceptable for the very first DC film universe, which will have a far larger reach than any comic book? Absolutely not. Turning Superman into Batman Lite and miring him in the cynical realism and shit of our modern world was the absolute wrong way to go. Go ahead and make a dark Superman movie, but have Superman be the counterpoint to that darkness, the light that inspires others to do their part to be super men and women. Don't give us a character who is taken apart and rebuilt as reflective of the times we live in, someone who doesn't believe "there's always a way" and kills for the sake of "learning that killing is wrong." Don't give us Snyderman or Goyerman or Nolanman, give us Superman and use him to show us that heroism, sacrifice, and nobility are timeless and always needed, to show us that we can be better.

Had that Superman, who is the iconic Superman, been at the center of a darker DC film universe, all the other movies would make sense. Superman would be the guy who inspires everyone else to be better, who brings together a group of heroes with his humanity and natural leadership. We now have a cinematic version of the DCU that is indeed an Elseworlds take, with everyone like Batman in some way. WB promised that all DC movies would be like The Dark Knight after it made a billion worldwide and they weren't joking. That was the fatal flaw of every DC movie since.

I'm all for different takes on the DCU and one of the reasons I'm a DC fan first and foremost is because of the richness provided by the Multiverse concept. It's undermined, however, when the first new version of Superman in decades is Superman through a dark mirror. Marvel has made some mistakes and not all of their movies are perfect, but they've had success because they distilled the best of the 616 and Ultimate universes in their cinematic take on the characters. They didn't turn Cap and Thor into Iron Man-inspired knockoffs; rather, they kept those characters exactly who they are at heart and used those differences to play off Tony Stark. That's why the MCU/Avengers films work so well and why Snyder's movieverse is failing so grandly.

This.

I have been very critical of the nu52 and was turned off by it. But it was mainly because of the way D.C. handled the transition into the nu52. However, with Rebirth, I am looking forward to going back and reading stuff I missed out on like Morrison's run on Action.

D.C.'s multiverse is its strength and I am glad that they are making a way for it to exist. It gives writers a big world and lots of characters. I am probably one of the few that actually enjoyed Superman Beyond in Final Crisis with all of the various Superman's and their interactions.

I adore Superman Beyond! One of my all-time favorite Superman stories. See above for my feelings on the richness of the Multiverse and why going with an alternate take on Superman and the DCU was a mistake on the big screen.

[PyroTwilight]

After having read it, I have to say I think Lana summed up the entire history of the DCU better than anyone else ever has! Yes, the entire universe does, in fact, revolve around Superman and Lois and everyone else essentially gets thrown under the bus in the process. It sounds like Jimenez is venting here but it's kind of hard to argue that he's wrong.

And yet that's one of the bigger problems I had with this story. What's the point in reading it when the writer/characters themselves admit there's no real story to them?

Not to mention the crap ways most plot points were addressed in this issue.

I'm surprised Superwoman's even continuing after this issue. It reads like a complete final issue, almost trying to apologize that we tried it.

[superduperman]

And yet that's one of the bigger problems I had with this story. What's the point in reading it when the writer/characters themselves admit there's no real story to them?

Not to mention the crap ways most plot points were addressed in this issue.

I'm surprised Superwoman's even continuing after this issue. It reads like a complete final issue, almost trying to apologize that we tried it.

This kind of reminds me of Grant Morrison's run on Animal Man. Where he revealed himself to Animal Man and basically told him he was a comic book. Buddy was completely exposed to the "truth" about his world. Where do you go from there? It's an odd set-up. Someone a while back made the observation that DC is in an awkward position compared to Marvel. Marvel doesn't have one or two characters that their universe revolves around like DC does. The closest that they come to is Spider-Man and maybe Captain America. And even they are subject to revision in a way that doesn't mess up everyone else. Whereas with DC, their entire universe revolves around accommodating the Trinity. Before the Crisis, LOSH was one their biggest sellers. But had to be completely retooled because Superman was getting a reboot and was no longer going to be Superboy. Wonder Girl had to have a completely different origin so Wonder Woman could make her debut in the modern world. But they couldn't remove her from continuity altogether because Teen Titans was another popular book whose continuity they wanted to keep. It wasn't enough to have a book with a version of Superman in it, albeit a bit younger. The entire history of the Legion had to be upended so that his adult self could get a fresh start.

We saw the same thing with New 52. Everybody got a hard reboot where nothing counted except Batman because everybody loved his history and wanted to keep it. This created timeline problems where he went through something like four Robins in five years. But my favorite Batman story, Year One, was the one that got tossed. All this just so Damien can still be Robin because nobody wanted to start back at the beginning with Dick.

[manofsteel1979]

Thankfully, there seems to be a willingness at DC now to not only return to the iconic nature of their characters and universe, but also the classic looks. I'm hoping that leads to the return of the classic uniform for Superman and the oval for The Batman. Morrison and Finch's Batman Inc suit was beautiful; inspired by the 89 suit with that awesome light-up symbol.



First of all, you are far from a freak. I also enjoyed New 52 Superman under Morrison's pen. As for different media, here's my main problem with MoS. DC decided to get people who were more interested in deconstruction, "realism" and putting their own stamp on Superman than finally updating the iconic Superman for the 21st century. I went into that movie with high hopes, having forgiven a lot: the ugly suit (though I love that symbol), the fact that there wasn't going to be a love triangle, the fact that there was a darker tone than previous takes. What I couldn't forgive was upon seeing the movie was that it wasn't Superman, but rather, a deconstructed version of the character. Is that fine for Elseworlds or animation? Sure. Is it at all acceptable for the very first DC film universe, which will have a far larger reach than any comic book? Absolutely not. Turning Superman into Batman Lite and miring him in the cynical realism and shit of our modern world was the absolute wrong way to go. Go ahead and make a dark Superman movie, but have Superman be the counterpoint to that darkness, the light that inspires others to do their part to be super men and women. Don't give us a character who is taken apart and rebuilt as reflective of the times we live in, someone who doesn't believe "there's always a way" and kills for the sake of "learning that killing is wrong." Don't give us Snyderman or Goyerman or Nolanman, give us Superman and use him to show us that heroism, sacrifice, and nobility are timeless and always needed, to show us that we can be better.

Had that Superman, who is the iconic Superman, been at the center of a darker DC film universe, all the other movies would make sense. Superman would be the guy who inspires everyone else to be better, who brings together a group of heroes with his humanity and natural leadership. We now have a cinematic version of the DCU that is indeed an Elseworlds take, with everyone like Batman in some way. WB promised that all DC movies would be like The Dark Knight after it made a billion worldwide and they weren't joking. That was the fatal flaw of every DC movie since.

I'm all for different takes on the DCU and one of the reasons I'm a DC fan first and foremost is because of the richness provided by the Multiverse concept. It's undermined, however, when the first new version of Superman in decades is Superman through a dark mirror. Marvel has made some mistakes and not all of their movies are perfect, but they've had success because they distilled the best of the 616 and Ultimate universes in their cinematic take on the characters. They didn't turn Cap and Thor into Iron Man-inspired knockoffs; rather, they kept those characters exactly who they are at heart and used those differences to play off Tony Stark. That's why the MCU/Avengers films work so well and why Snyder's movieverse is failing so grandly.




I adore Superman Beyond! One of my all-time favorite Superman stories. See above for my feelings on the richness of the Multiverse and why going with an alternate take on Superman and the DCU was a mistake on the big screen.

I will have to agree to disagree on MOS and DCEU. While it has it's flaws and certainly could do some things better, I don't feel it's a lost cause that needs to be rebooted. You clearly do and that's fine, but this is not a debate on MOS,and it's pointless for either of us to try and convince each other to change their views, so let's leave it at that.

However, I'm glad you don't think I'm a freak! Just never assume that all fans are always in lockstep when it comes to certain things. It's a trap all of us have fallen into. Including myself.

[spirit2011]

After having read it, I have to say I think Lana summed up the entire history of the DCU better than anyone else ever has! Yes, the entire universe does, in fact, revolve around Superman and Lois and everyone else essentially gets thrown under the bus in the process. It sounds like Jimenez is venting here but it's kind of hard to argue that he's wrong.

not even close to truth. It's all about Batman

[superduperman]

not even close to truth. It's all about Batman

Batman doesn't tend to upend everyone else's history though. In every universal reboot, he suffers the least damage. While Superman gets a new origin every five years at this point. This might actually help explain why he's the most popular. If he's the one guy who comes out smelling like a rose everytime, then it's understandable why people would stick with him more than Superman.

[Atomic Man]

I will have to agree to disagree on MOS and DCEU. While it has it's flaws and certainly could do some things better, I don't feel it's a lost cause that needs to be rebooted. You clearly do and that's fine, but this is not a debate on MOS,and it's pointless for either of us to try and convince each other to change their views, so let's leave it at that.

However, I'm glad you don't think I'm a freak! Just never assume that all fans are always in lockstep when it comes to certain things. It's a trap all of us have fallen into. Including myself.

Fair enough, but I'm frankly shocked that you're a fan of that movie. Given your love for the most iconic versions of the character (Earth-One/Silver/Bronze), I'm surprised you like a version of the character who is nowhere near that. Jonathan Kent's a coward, Clark's also a coward and a dullard, and he is completely void of the heart and soul of Superman. As you say, though, we'll have to agree to disagree. I do feel, however, that there's an irrefutable take on Superman that is the sum total of the unities of the character and that this take has withstood decades without change. That version is the prime version, which I don't feel is up for debate. Again, we'll agree to disagree.

[Atomic Man]

As for Superwoman, here's my question: what's going to happen to Lana going forward? Lois is obviously going to merge or whatever with her pre-Flashpoint self (which ties in nicely to the history of Lois having powers in different eras) but will Lana remain a superhero? I'd like to her form a team with Steel, Natasha, Kara, and eventually, Kon. Maybe the Supermen Of America should return? I'm sure today's PC atmosphere will make that title unlikely, though.

[Superlad93]

Maybe the Supermen Of America should return? I'm sure today's PC atmosphere will make that title unlikely, though.

This seems like a super strange comment to make when DC just put out a book called Justice League of America. The whole idea of that book is to rep the melting pot that modern day America is.

Why couldn't a Supermen of America book do the same? You'd just need to make sure all of the character joining would be diverse. Greg Pak already did some of the heavy lifting with his idea of Kentville. Lee Lambert, Natasha, Steel, Traci 13, Lana, Baka, Hiro, and maybe Ulysses would all work perfectly, imo.

Maybe make the book focus predominately on social justice in the world of superheroes. Have it as basically a precursor to the Legion of Superheroes. Ulysses is a bit of a wild card/radical, so he'd bring some internal conflict. He'd play well off of Steel given the fact that he's basically as virtuous as Clark. Lana would work as an inbetween who can see both sides. Lee is our voice of the people.

[Korath]

Ulysses would be kind of hard to convince. He did lost his world during his fight with New 52 Superman and in Last Days, he seemed rather happy to learn that Clark was dying. I don't think he would be too happy to hear about Mr.El and having to work for him. In any case, I think that Superwoman will continue with Lana using a suit similar to Steel's. Perhaps she'll have some lows level powers (like, I don't, sympathetic reaction to electromagnetism or something) which would be the result of her first experience as Superwoman, but beyond that she's set to be pretty "standard". I just hope for the sake of this series that Lana won't be confronted to villains too reminiscent of Batman's Line gallery of madmen, it wouldn't really help cement Superwoman as its own thing instead of a rip-off of Iron-Man and Batman (which I hope D.C. will manage to avoid for the sake of developing side-characters from the Superman's Line).

[Kuwagaton]

I'd like to see the Supermen of America Johns style: name co opted for something more high concept. Lana, Traci, Natasha, Sinbad, Outburst, and Gangbuster. I want steel stolen back to Superman, haha.