The new wave of writers grew up with Batgod, are they hating him?

[darkseidpwns]

The Arkham plot by Fawkes gave us Gotham by Midnight, Tynion's Harper plot gave us Mother in the sequel. Tynion was by far the weakest writer in both volumes of Eternal. He pushed horrid villains like Lincoln and Mother, he pushed Harper over the moon. Eternals were hot messes but almost every individual writer contributed something worthwhile. Orlando for Midnighter, Kelly and Lanzing for Bane, Valentine for Cass and Damian, Seeley for Croc and Catwoman, Fawkes for Corrigan etc. They had low points too, plenty of them but Tynion didn't have even one highpoint.

[millernumber1]

There were other problems to, they shouldn't have squeezed Kate in Jasons and Barbaras subplot, and I don't think that it was necessary to add Julia at all.

You're right about Kate being squeezed in, but I appreciated it, since her solo had just ended in ignominy. I disagree, though, about Julia. Julia was necessary to function as Alfred when Hush took Alfred out.

The Arkham plot by Fawkes gave us Gotham by Midnight, Tynion's Harper plot gave us Mother in the sequel. Tynion was by far the weakest writer in both volumes of Eternal. He pushed horrid villains like Lincoln and Mother, he pushed Harper over the moon. Eternals were hot messes but almost every individual writer contributed something worthwhile. Orlando for Midnighter, Kelly and Lanzing for Bane, Valentine for Cass and Damian, Seeley for Croc and Catwoman, Fawkes for Corrigan etc. They had low points too, plenty of them but Tynion didn't have even one highpoint.

I really, really dislike Gotham by Midnight. It was a really dull supernatural threat series with mostly dull characters. I don't know if Fawkes could have wrapped things up better if given more issues, but the ending was still both drawn out and inconclusive.

I don't love Harper, but I also don't hate her. I thought her plots in both the first and second Eternals were enjoyable.

It was clearly Snyder who was pushing Lincoln. I don't think Mother was that bad, honestly. I do think there were some weaknesses in Tynion's writing for her - the backstory issue he wrote was completely filler rather than really focusing on the characters we cared about, or making her someone to care about, and his giving her ninja powers at the end was dumb, but I liked her way better than Talia's role in Leviathan (which was commonly brought up). Not that I liked Mother better than Talia, but it didn't feel like turning a rich character with history into a plot point.

Tynion's highpoint was definitely Tim in the first Eternal (and Harper, who I enjoyed), and Cass in issue #13 of Eternal 2. And to some extent, Dick in the flashbacks. I agree that he's got low points - he tends to drag characters down to pump up others (though he's gotten a lot better at not doing that in Tec), but I quite like the way he writes in general.

[Aahz]

You're right about Kate being squeezed in, but I appreciated it, since her solo had just ended in ignominy.

They could have put Kate somewhere else or made it a Kate Barbara team up, and put Jason somewhere else (for example in the Deacon Blackfire subplot).

I disagree, though, about Julia. Julia was necessary to function as Alfred when Hush took Alfred out.

You could have probably used an other chracter to do it (Harper for example or maybe Kate). And the whole Hush disables the equipment of the Batfamily didn't make much sense anyway.

[millernumber1]

They could have put Kate somewhere else or made it a Kate Barbara team up, and put Jason somewhere else (for example in the Deacon Blackfire subplot).

You could have probably used an other chracter to do it (Harper for example or maybe Kate). And the whole Hush disables the equipment of the Batfamily didn't make much sense anyway.

Kate should have joined Luke in the Blackfire plot, since she was always involved in the supernatural plot. Or replaced him and let Luke join Jason and Babs.

Why not have the Pennyworth legacy, though? I don't see why Hush's plan didn't make sense?

[darkseidpwns]

You're right about Kate being squeezed in, but I appreciated it, since her solo had just ended in ignominy. I disagree, though, about Julia. Julia was necessary to function as Alfred when Hush took Alfred out.



I really, really dislike Gotham by Midnight. It was a really dull supernatural threat series with mostly dull characters. I don't know if Fawkes could have wrapped things up better if given more issues, but the ending was still both drawn out and inconclusive.

I don't love Harper, but I also don't hate her. I thought her plots in both the first and second Eternals were enjoyable.

It was clearly Snyder who was pushing Lincoln. I don't think Mother was that bad, honestly. I do think there were some weaknesses in Tynion's writing for her - the backstory issue he wrote was completely filler rather than really focusing on the characters we cared about, or making her someone to care about, and his giving her ninja powers at the end was dumb, but I liked her way better than Talia's role in Leviathan (which was commonly brought up). Not that I liked Mother better than Talia, but it didn't feel like turning a rich character with history into a plot point.

Tynion's highpoint was definitely Tim in the first Eternal (and Harper, who I enjoyed), and Cass in issue #13 of Eternal 2. And to some extent, Dick in the flashbacks. I agree that he's got low points - he tends to drag characters down to pump up others (though he's gotten a lot better at not doing that in Tec), but I quite like the way he writes in general.

I liked it and it broke new ground for Batman family of books. So it gets points for that.

Those Harper plots particularly in the sequel pretty much ruined the book for me. In the end she didn't take off. They wasted 2 weekly books on a failed investment, worse even a blind person could have seen it coming. That's on Tynion.

Snyder hasn't used Lincoln since COO and since Tynion has been more than happy to be Snyder's right hand the blame goes to him as well.
Talia's story was years in the making and it was executed well. Mother cant claim either, she became a martial arts maestro out of thin air for heavens sake.

[millernumber1]

I liked it and it broke new ground for Batman family of books. So it gets points for that.

Those Harper plots particularly in the sequel pretty much ruined the book for me. In the end she didn't take off. They wasted 2 weekly books on a failed investment, worse even a blind person could have seen it coming. That's on Tynion.

Snyder hasn't used Lincoln since COO and since Tynion has been more than happy to be Snyder's right hand the blame goes to him as well.
Talia's story was years in the making and it was executed well. Mother cant claim either, she became a martial arts maestro out of thin air for heavens sake.

I'm not convinced it's a waste. I think the ending of Harper's story was a good exploration of the impact and inspiration of Batman.

Just because the story took a long time to tell doesn't make it good, though, in either case. I know I'm in the minority, but I really dislike Morrison's Bat-epic as a whole.

I already agreed with you that Mother being a ninja was dumb.

[Aahz]

Kate should have joined Luke in the Blackfire plot, since she was always involved in the supernatural plot.

The Cult was one of the biggest story lines from Jasons time as Robin, and in his book he also dealed with supernatural stuff.

[millernumber1]

The Cult was one of the biggest story lines from Jasons time as Robin, and in his book he also dealed with supernatural stuff.

So what you're saying is Kate and Jason should be done the supernatural stuff, and Luke should have hung out with Babs? But LukeBabs didn't become a think till two years later!

[Aahz]

Kate should have joined Luke in the Blackfire plot, since she was always involved in the supernatural plot. Or replaced him and let Luke join Jason and Babs.

hard to say since the side plots in the story went anyway nowhere ...

Why not have the Pennyworth legacy, though?

I don't really feel that Alfred having a daughter is adding much. I mean they basically erased or ignored Julia and the rest of Alfreds relatives after COIE, and I don't feel that Alfred lost something when they did it.

I don't see why Hush's plan didn't make sense?

Why should Jason or Harper have gadgets that can be remote controlled from the bat cave?
And it was iirc said that Tims computer System is separated from the Bat computer so how can Hush shut his suit down. And Hush is afiak not even really a computer or tech expert.

[Gaelforce]

Let's stick to the topic and not make accusations regarding other posters, please.

Keep personal commentary to yourselves and keep this conversation civil.

[Shadowedeyes]

I finally got a chance to read the incident that sparked 14 pages of discussion and frankly, I was a little bit let down. From the way people were describing it, I expected a lot worse than Batman getting a gadget blocked and being put in an armbar. Honestly, if anyone got punked in that comic, it was probably Azrael/Batwing. Mostly thought, it seemed like pretty typical, the villain coming off better in the beginning to give the end of the arc a more underdog feel for the heroes.

As for the original question itself, no I don't think the the writers hate Batman. They have their own interpretations of them certainly, and not everyone is going to like those interpretations. But the current writers have had Batman going up against impressive odds, and generally coming out on top, so the idea that they "hate" Batman seems kinda silly.

[JasonTodd428]

I don't see why Hush's plan didn't make sense?

Because Jason's guns are just standard issue ones with no electronics as far as we know so Hush should have been able to do anything to them remotely or otherwise for one and if there was something special them it would have been alien tech which again wouldn't have been effected. Its also a bit unbelievable that any of their suits wouldn't have had several protective firewalls to prevent them from being hacked into. The whole thing made no sense.

[Aahz]

Because Jason's guns are just standard issue ones with no electronics as far as we know so Hush should have been able to do anything to them remotely or otherwise for one and if there was something special them it would have been alien tech which again wouldn't have been effected.

I don't think that he did anything with the guns, how I understand the scene, he set of explosives in Jasons utility belt, that that Jason had to get rid of it. But i also don't really see why it should be possible to set of Jasons explosives from the Batcave. Only explanation I can see is that Jason stole them from Batman which is of course not completely impossible.

But the whole Batman saves everybody thing that followed was imo one of the worst things in this series (the only thing that was worse was imo issue #42). They should my present Jason, Tim and Barbara as capable heros in their own right, that don't need to be saved by Batman. The treatment of these characters in the Eternals is imo really damaging the characters.

[JasonTodd428]

I don't think that he did anything with the guns, how I understand the scene, he set of explosives in Jasons utility belt, that that Jason had to get rid of it. But i also don't really see why it should be possible to set of Jasons explosives from the Batcave. Only explanation I can see is that Jason stole them from Batman which is of course not completely impossible.

But the whole Batman saves everybody thing that followed was imo one of the worst things in this series (the only thing that was worse was imo issue #42). They should my present Jason, Tim and Barbara as capable heros in their own right, that don't need to be saved by Batman. The treatment of these characters in the Eternals is imo really damaging the characters.

I thought something went on with Jason's guns as well. Maybe I'm not remembering what happened correctly but I'm also now unable to even check because I got rid of those issues a long while ago. In all honesty I gave up reading both Eternals at some point even though I did end up buying every issue and I've forgotten a lot of details. I'm not sure why his belt would have gone off there. Jason maintains his own weapons stashes independent of Batman's and so to set them off from the cave made no sense at all. Its not as if he hangs around the cave like some of the others might.

[Zainu]

Pretty much. Sure, Bette Kane, Azrael, and Scott Snyder's OC's won't be selling books on their own any time soon, but the majority of the others are still very marketable, and to differing degrees, have die hard fanbases.

DC, give me my flipping Cass solo(or Cass-led book) already.

Also, just how isn't Strix a Cass clone? Silent female assassin covered with scars, wields non-typical ways of interacting with the world at large, and has a close, dependent bond with Barbara. I fail to see how she wasn't replacing Bab's relationship with Cass the same way that Harper was substituting Cass's relationship with Steph.