The new wave of writers grew up with Batgod, are they hating him?

[GodofBoredom]

I've noticed that there's a clear discrepancy on how the old generation of writers, the likes of Grant Morrison, Jeph Loeb, Peter Tomasi and such write the character, compared to the ones like Tom King, Tynion and such are currently doing so. They seem to dislike Bruce, and take more of a liking to Dick Grayson, Cassandra Cain and the rest of the family.

Case in point, the recent Shiva scene. You'd never see Shiva completely humiliating Bruce like she did written by Tynion under Grant Morrison, who had Bruce at the apex of skill.

Jeph Loeb had them fight, and Bruce winning, in Batman/Superman.

http://s289.photobucket.com/user/dar...hiva1.jpg.html
http://s289.photobucket.com/user/dar...hiva2.jpg.html
http://s289.photobucket.com/user/dar...hiva3.jpg.html

They fought before in Death in the Family, and it was a stalemate in skill. Tynion not only had her destroy him, but he also retconned the other fights quite disrespectfully.

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/l...va-family6.jpg

Not only that, but they're pushing Cassandra as by far better than Bruce.
They're pushing Bronze Tiger as having an edge on Bruce, based on their scuffle under Tom King.
They're even pushing Dick Grayson as being better in a fight.

Bruce's fighting skill, for somebody who's known for his obsession of being the best is becoming...mundane. No longer is he the one held in high regard, the one who puts up a fight against Karate Kid (!)

http://s289.photobucket.com/user/dar...ekid1.jpg.html
http://s289.photobucket.com/user/dar...ekid2.jpg.html

the one who Shiva has heart myths of as the best fighter in the world.


Do you think the obvious downgrade is due to the writers growing up to hate Bruce being the best?

[Godlike13]

I never understood why Batman never just ran Shiva over with his super car.

[darkseidpwns]

Just a matter of time before Orlando (who does value Bruce) has Batman beat Prometheus and possibly Lord Havok in the current JLA. Shiva and Tiger are flies in comparison. Tiger is just a jobber in Batman anyway and Tynion is overcompensating for his writing of Shiva previously. It doesn't matter, I'm more annoyed by Tynion and his inability to do something else.

[darkseidpwns]

I never understood why Batman never just ran Shiva over with his super car.

Funny thing is that Tynion didn't retcon his own low showing for Shiva, he retconned someone elses work.

[Agent Z]

I never understood why Batman never just ran Shiva over with his super car.

Same reason he never does the same thing to the Joker when he sees him. or the same reason he can walk into a room of heavily armed men and non lethally take them out all on his own.

[darkseidpwns]

He could have easily electrocuted her or gassed her but admittedly that would have been boring. But so is the non fight that Tynion gave us. A proper Shiva vs Batman fight with Shiva winning would have been better than wasting pages on Jacob and Renee talking. Mike Barr once wrote Batman vs Kobra which ended up with Kobra winning, Wolfman had Deathstroke beat him too. These guys are also old school, Priest thinks Slade should stomp him. Difference boils down to effort and creativity. Tynion cant make his fights creative, its all about hacking and one shotting and damsels in distress. Remember this writer had Jason felling Shiva with one blow.

[Godlike13]

[Agent Z]

You know I find it odd that depsite Batman's supposed appeal being how human he is, there's always some kind of controversy when it comes to him losing a fight or making a mistake.

[GodofBoredom]

You know I find it odd that depsite Batman's supposed appeal being how human he is, there's always some kind of controversy when it comes to him losing a fight or making a mistake.

I'd have nothing against him making a mistake and losing the fight. It happens, even to a psycho perfectionist like him.

I have something against him being humiliated instantly, while Shiva tells him she faked her loses, and retconning out every other fight.

[darkseidpwns]

You know I find it odd that depsite Batman's supposed appeal being how human he is, there's always some kind of controversy when it comes to him losing a fight or making a mistake.

Yeah but I'm tired of Batman doubting the existence of a secret society and being proven wrong again and again. Put him in new settings and have him stumble and learn. What we're getting is the same old same old.

[David Walton]

These things tend to move in cycles. I think the Bronze Age Batman is making something of a comeback--formidable, but not invincible. He could take down a room of armed assailants without breaking a sweat, then get konked on the back of the head with a crowbar by a thug lurking in the shadows.

The push for Batman to be pretty much perfect seems to have roots as far back as the 80s, when editors complained about a scene where Max Allan Collins showed Batman winded after getting knocked in the stomach with a baseball bat. And Collins was like, I don't care who you are, you take a hit like that it's going to knock you down!

I'm okay with either approach. I like stories where Batman is perfect in nearly every way, and I like ones where he's more vulnerable.

I just like Batman stories!

[Aioros22]

This "retcon" is amusingly silly when you notice her loses aren`t that big of a deal to her own reputation. The one that is comes from the writer himself but maybe Jason does have a better curriculum list than some at this point.

That said, Tiger being more skilled of the two is the traditional dinamic.

They`re pushing Dick to be better? Really? Must be something really low radar since I haven`t noticed.

[JBatmanFan05]

I've noticed that there's a clear discrepancy on how the old generation of writers, the likes of Grant Morrison, Jeph Loeb, Peter Tomasi and such write the character, compared to the ones like Tom King, Tynion and such are currently doing so. They seem to dislike Bruce...The new wave of writers grew up with Batgod, are they hating him?

NO. They didn't (totally) grow up with Batgod. Snyder routinely mentions the influence of early Post-Crisis Batman...who is not generally considered of the 'Batgod' era. Batman The Cult, Year One, Knightfall, early LOTDK, etc....those hold much influence over the current wave of Batman writers.

What you're seeing playing out IMHO are the differences some between Post-Crisis pre-1997's-JLA-Batman and writers more of that gritty but vulnerable and somewhat mentally ill approach to Batman vs Batgod who is often (not always) somewhat (by degree) less of all those factors.

[GodofBoredom]

They`re pushing Dick to be better? Really? Must be something really low radar since I haven`t noticed.

There's a whole thread about this The depressing part is that it's the current writer of the Batman comic book.

http://community.comicbookresources....ighting-Skills

NO. They didn't (totally) grow up with Batgod. Snyder routinely mentions the influence of early Post-Crisis Batman...who is not generally considered of the 'Batgod' era. Batman The Cult, Year One, Knightfall, early LOTDK, etc....those hold much influence over the current wave of Batman writers.

What you're seeing playing out IMHO are the differences some between Post-Crisis pre-1997's-JLA-Batman and writers more of that gritty but vulnerable and somewhat mentally ill approach to Batman vs Batgod who is often (not always) somewhat (by degree) less of all those factors.

I think you're confusing Bat-God (as in, Grant Morrison's JLA Batman) and Batman's actual martial artist skill.

Batman has been stalemating Shiva and Bronze Tiger long before the Bat-God era, in the same periods yourself are specifying (Year One, Legends of the Dark Knight etc.)

Remember Death in the Family? 1988?

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/l...va-family6.jpg

I just posted this scan earlier in the thread, too:

http://castleparadox.com/uncommon/qu...;88%20pg18.jpg

One has nothing to do with the other.

He's been the best martial artist in the world far before his JLA-GOD days. Being the peak fighter has been part of him close to his inception.

Him getting humiliated by Shiva is his worst showing against her, Batgod or not.

[Caivu]

It's a little baffling to me that anyone has a problem with Batman losing to Shiva of all people.