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  1. #1
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    Default Do you think the Joker should be given a backstory, yes or no and why?

    Okay, the new 52 Joker leaves a lot to be desired, in my opinion, but the earlier detective comics, not the Golden Age, but more the Silver and Bronze Age (the ones that weren't too campy, yuck!) portrayed Batman sort of like a Sherlock Holmes in a cape and cowl and the Joker was his Professor Moriaty. Not just a mass murdering psychopath, Joker was portrayed as a sophisticated mannerly criminal genius (even in the cartoons, he's well-versed in chemistry and machines, and we find out in one of the comics--Batman Europa, that he also speaks fluent French) who antagonized Batman just for the thrill of it but also sort of treated him like his annoying little brother or best "frenemy" and would come to his aid if he felt like someone else was going to get the honor of taking him out (like in Batman and Robin must Die) or if teaming up were more conducive to his plans than killing him at the time.

    There are a few odd fan theories, one that Joker is actually Thomas Wayne Jr., Batman's estranged older brother--(personally, I would like to see a story arc that explores this idea. Maybe Batman thinks this is a possibility and this is why he inexplicably saves the Joker over and over again even though he commits heinous crimes and betrays the bat's trust?) That Killing Joke origin story was also pretty good, and there's a lot of really cool things you could potentially do with Joker, given what he knows and what he's capable of--since he knows enough to always be at least one step ahead of Batman, maybe he was once a master detective who was duped into becoming the bad guy and the ACE chemical plan thing was the breaking point (he certainly seemed brilliant enough in Batman and Robin must Die)? Personally, I would like to see them delve more deeply into the Joker's "super sanity" and give us an idea of how it works. Maybe the Joker knows how things usually turn out and so thinks he's doing good by doing bad? There's a little evidence for this in the older comics. They shouldn't have introduced the concept if it wasn't a real thing; plot holes don't always make a great story. Think about it. This guy is portrayed as having some serious brains; he's outwitted the police to pull off many many elaborate and deadly pranks, successfully killed Batman (in Emperor Joker), and won an insanity plea for every crime he actually committed (and somehow duped everyone into just throwing him back into his hideout--well, Joker, you've killed 100 people, so we're sending you back home so that you can escape and do it again! In the rare instances the Joker is framed for sloppy crimes and almost given the death penalty, we're introduced to the idea that Joker's insanity pleas for his own heinous crimes aren't automatically granted but are the result of careful planning.) I don't know about everyone else, but I would like to see Batman's world from Joker's twisted point of view; much more than a crazy murdering psychopath, this character has been portrayed as a very intelligent, suave, sophisticated, and sometimes surprisingly sportsmanlike criminal mastermind.

    I know they made a campy version called Joker in the seventies, but they ignored a lot of the original nature of the character; the guy who appeared in The Man who Laughs wasn't the same guy we saw in those later comics. One was a criminal genius who could send chills up your spine; the other was a simple clown. One could have probably taken on James Bond; the other was barely a match for an actor dressed as Sherlock Holmes.

    Plus, Joker has more history in the comics than Harley Quinn; it seems like he should be as redeemable and relatable. Trying to retcon really good material and make a complex multi-dimensional character "pure evil" and, therefore, one-dimensional, just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. People love to root for this villain, why not make him more of a human being, even if it's an incredibly complex super mysterious, probably still violent, human being?

    I realize some of these things are written for kids, but I would like to read a Batman story with substance for a change! The new 52 Joker series was, well, a joke. It turned a Professor Moriaty in clown face into a simple gruesome mass murderer with almost none of that old theatrical Joker we all like so much. Sure, it's Joker, so it fits, but if that is where the new 52 is taking this iconic super villain, I think they are making a mistake. I would rather read about a guy who has Gotham in his grasp, not through brute force but through ingenious schemes. The cartoons give us the idea that Joker is really good at team building and gaining his victims' trust; he apparently has no problem rallying a gang of Batman's biggest and baddest super villains to pull off a big master plan if he needs to, but he's also dangerous and unpredictable, so unpredictable that even his allies are wary.

    Okay, so you might have to be a Joker and Batman fan (or just a Joker fan) to know where I'm coming from, but what do you think? Don't you think they are wasting this character by refusing to develop him any further than they have? I mean, anything would fit with Joker; you could even have him traveling into outer space or breaking the forth wall to have a conversation with his readers. You could make him into an immortal demon or a relative of Batman, or anything interesting in between--it would all fit...
    Last edited by kcomics; 03-09-2017 at 04:13 PM.

  2. #2
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    I don't care either way, but if they're not going to give him an actual origin then they should stop teasing about it.

  3. #3
    Not a Newbie Member JBatmanFan05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcomics View Post
    Do you think the Joker should be given a backstory, yes or no and why?....I would like to see them delve more deeply into....I don't know about everyone else, but I would like to see Batman's world from Joker's twisted point of view....
    Okay, so you might have to be a Joker and Batman fan (or just a Joker fan) to know where I'm coming from, but what do you think? Don't you think they are wasting this character by refusing to develop him any further than they have?
    You're confusing me tremendously because you're seeming to suggest having a set backstory is needed for any writer to try to get into Joker's head or explore some aspect more (even if it won't apply to later writers necessarily). I'm quite certain I think Joker's backstory should be no more concrete than knowing he was the Red Hood (but we never know how he got in that hood or why really). It wasn't until 1951, which is a long time and many appearances after 1940, until Joker got that shred of origin as the Red Hood and Finger played it mysterious even with that origin. And no one tackled the origin again all those years after until Moore. So I think Joker had a history and tradition of a mysterious origin and Moore's play with that was brilliant and has now proven quite popular and part of pop culture.
    Last edited by JBatmanFan05; 03-09-2017 at 05:02 PM.
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  4. #4
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    I can't name a single character who was ever improved by having a past shoe-horned onto them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JBatmanFan05 View Post
    You're confusing me tremendously because you're seeming to suggest having a set backstory is needed for any writer to try to get into Joker's head or explore some aspect more (even if it won't apply to later writers necessarily). I'm quite certain I think Joker's backstory should be no more concrete than knowing he was the Red Hood (but we never know how he got in that hood or why really). It wasn't until 1951, which is a long time and many appearances after 1940, until Joker got that shred of origin as the Red Hood and Finger played it mysterious even with that origin. And no one tackled the origin again all those years after until Moore. So I think Joker had a history and tradition of a mysterious origin and Moore's play with that was brilliant and has now proven quite popular and part of pop culture.
    I guess I didn't exactly say that right, but the new 52 Joker seems a little more one-dimensional, doesn't he? (I'm referring, specifically, to that Joker comic they did with the fictional henchman Johnny Frost as the narrator). I also think they kind of messed the character up by trying to make him "pure evil." Sure, he was a bad guy who took pride in his work, but he was such a complex character in the earlier comics, treating Batman as a welcome challenge, even sort of a "friend" in a really twisted way. That older Joker is a character I would have liked to have seen developed. I mean no one really ruined Batman by giving him a nice clear origin story, and I mean it could still be totally crazy, maybe Joker doesn't even know his origin story, but I would still like it, I think, if the comics attempted to get into his head more and made it really feel like we were experiencing the Joker's logic. We don't need to know exactly who he is or where he came from but updating the character by making him back into the genius fiend we grew up loving would be a start.

    I'm complaining mainly about the fact that the Silver and Bronze Age comics made the Joker seem somewhat relatable; yeah, you still got the idea he was totally crazy, but nevertheless. The new 52 comics, though, only hint at relatability. What's so bad about actually making the Joker a little more human? Look at Harley Quinn; she wasn't even in the comics as long as the Joker, and she's being fleshed out. Joker is practically Batman's perfect foil, and we have yet to see him fleshed out into a more relatable character. No, he doesn't have to turn into a good guy; we just need to know there's a method to his "madness" and maybe feel a reason to cheer for him every now and again. Given the context, I think this should be a villain we can grow to love, not just love to hate. This character has taken so many forms it's hard not to just admire his sheer versatility. It's clear that he's at his best when he's at his worst, but can't we at least explore why these games are so important to him?
    Last edited by kcomics; 03-09-2017 at 06:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HellHere View Post
    I can't name a single character who was ever improved by having a past shoe-horned onto them.
    Maybe not, but I'm just asking why this character can't be a Harley or Catwoman or Victor Freeze or whoever else the Batman universe decides to redeem. I really don't think a well-written fleshed out personality would kill the character. In fact, it might make him even more interesting if done correctly. It could even be Killing Joke style and the reader could have that sliver of doubt at the end.
    Last edited by kcomics; 03-09-2017 at 06:21 PM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcomics View Post
    Okay, the new 52 Joker....
    The new 52 Joker series was, well, a joke. It turned a Professor Moriaty in clown face into a simple gruesome mass murderer with almost none of that old theatrical Joker we all like so much. ......

    I guess I didn't exactly say that right, but the new 52 Joker seems a little more one-dimensional, doesn't he? (I'm referring, specifically, to that Joker comic they did with the fictional henchman Johnny Frost as the narrator).
    That Bermejo Joker story (you refer to it as a "series" when it was just one graphic novel) was in 2008, well before 2011's New 52. It was not canon then and is like most other significant Joker stories: just one writer's take (amid a huge sea of other Joker stories).

    Quote Originally Posted by kcomics View Post
    I also think they kind of messed the character up by trying to make him "pure evil." Sure, he was a bad guy who took pride in his work, but he was such a complex character in the earlier comics, treating Batman as a welcome challenge, even sort of a "friend" in a really twisted way. That older Joker is a character I would have liked to have seen developed. I mean no one really ruined Batman by giving him a nice clear origin story, and I mean it could still be totally crazy, maybe Joker doesn't even know his origin story, but I would still like it, I think, if the comics attempted to get into his head more and made it really feel like we were experiencing the Joker's logic. We don't need to know exactly who he is or where he came from but updating the character by making him back into the genius fiend we grew up loving would be a start.
    Batman had his origin from the get-go in 1939, Joker did not (see my previous post in this thread). Again, you say some things I agree with or half agree with, but also just basically say you think Joker should be given a concrete set backstory and origin, and I completely disagree. I think DC has been getting it right all along: letting the writers take Joker in different directions with their arcs and runs, making him as relatable and sympathetic or not as they wish (and allow readers the ability to bring what they have read or think about Joker to the character's later stories).

    And for me, Joker has not stopped being what you think he isn't anymore. I still find him as complex and the genius fiend who finds Batman a challenge as ever. I still see him that way because I've read SO MANY Joker stories and am able to keep all them all in the back of my mind when reading any latest Joker story. I see this great rich tapestry of a character with every new story I read.

    Quote Originally Posted by kcomics View Post
    I'm complaining mainly about the fact that the Silver and Bronze Age comics made the Joker seem somewhat relatable; yeah, you still got the idea he was totally crazy, but nevertheless. The new 52 comics, though, only hint at relatability. What's so bad about actually making the Joker a little more human?
    New 52 and now Rebirth Joker is mostly a carryover of Pre-Flashpoint Joker, and Joker has had all sorts of relatable stories in Post-Crisis history with stories like Going Sane where Joker almost reforms and other stories where we see takes on how his mind works (see Morrison's Joker stories for example). Snyder's Joker has a sort of perverse nobility and I found that relatable, almost this idea that Joker is like an internet troll to Batman, but aimed at sort of bettering him or testing him. I think you're not recognizing that many writers have developed Joker and explored him and his thoughts within their arcs and runs, and DC should not constrain the character or writers with a concrete set backstory and origin.

    What's great about Joker is that he has these various takes on his background (Moore, Dini, J. Michael Straczynski's Joker origin in Brave & Bold #31, Michael Green's Lovers and Madmen origin, Snyder's origin-ish stuff, movie and other media origins, etc) and you can use of them for reading any particular new Joker story (except if the current writer maybe offers an origin he'd prefer you to keep in mind while reading his stuff).

    Quote Originally Posted by kcomics View Post
    No, he doesn't have to turn into a good guy; we just need to know there's a method to his "madness" and maybe feel a reason to cheer for him every now and again. Given the context, I think this should be a villain we can grow to love, not just love to hate. This character has taken so many forms it's hard not to just admire his sheer versatility. It's clear that he's at his best when he's at his worst, but can't we at least explore why these games are so important to him?....Maybe not, but I'm just asking why this character can't be a Harley or Catwoman or Victor Freeze or whoever else the Batman universe decides to redeem.
    You're trying not to say you want it, but you do: a clearly sympathetic Joker. And that's a desire many will balk at, especially since you seem to want it to be concrete and firm for the character and apply to like all Joker writers, even ones who don't want to write Joker like that.

    What's odd for me reading of this desire is that I already love fictional Joker (he's fun and funny sometimes) and have cheered for him at times (he took out Dr Hurt). He's saved Batman and spared people and has aided Batman and Gotham at times for his own reasons. Many (big) writers show him to not be "pure evil" (at least as far as deeper motivation).

    I just can't help but wonder if you've read enough Joker stories or just have some very very specific story in mind that you feel hasn't been written yet. But I find a lot to disagree with you on. I feel like I've read every approach under the sun with Joker.

    Quote Originally Posted by kcomics View Post
    Okay, the new 52 Joker leaves a lot to be desired, in my opinion, but the earlier detective comics, not the Golden Age, but more the Silver and Bronze Age (the ones that weren't too campy, yuck!) portrayed Batman sort of like a Sherlock Holmes in a cape and cowl and the Joker was his Professor Moriaty. Not just a mass murdering psychopath, Joker was portrayed as a sophisticated mannerly criminal genius (even in the cartoons, he's well-versed in chemistry and machines, and we find out in one of the comics--Batman Europa, that he also speaks fluent French) who antagonized Batman just for the thrill of it but also sort of treated him like his annoying little brother or best "frenemy" and would come to his aid if he felt like someone else was going to get the honor of taking him out (like in Batman and Robin must Die) or if teaming up were more conducive to his plans than killing him at the time.
    Actually, rereading your original post, it seems you may have read a lot of Joker stories but seem oddly fixated on that one Bermejo Joker GN that wasn't even New 52. I half agree some that perhaps New 52 Joker comes off as boring murdering psycho too much sometimes, but murdering psycho does go back to the Bronze Age, and the Snyder (the main Joker writer in New 52 land) does give some depth as to Joker's warped view of his "servant" role of in Batman's life, as a tester of Batman, or as a someone who alerts Batman to his own weaknesses.
    Last edited by JBatmanFan05; 03-10-2017 at 08:28 AM.
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  8. #8
    Incredible Member bobellis75's Avatar
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    I like a more ambiguous Joker, I suppose. Just like I enjoyed a Wolverine with a mysterious past...did it really play well to do a Wolverine Origin? I mean it wasn't terrible, but not great, and what did it really add? Oh he had parents. His real name is James. Meh....Joker works well as a crazy and chaotic character.

    That said...World's Greatest Detective...you'd think he'd have figured out some Joker information by now....

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    Not a Newbie Member JBatmanFan05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobellis75 View Post
    That said...World's Greatest Detective...you'd think he'd have figured out some Joker information by now....
    Batman is not a perfect detective. For example, he didn't completely (correctly?) solve the Holiday murders in L.Halloween, and Morrison had Batman guess Hurt's ID wrongly in RIP as Mangrove Pierce. Etc, etc. I think it's cool to imagine what Joker might have done to erase his identity....the files maybe burned, the people maybe killed, etc. In a comic world where Joker has the ingenuity to get into anywhere & a never clearly limited set of skills, such erasure of his past life is possible.
    Last edited by JBatmanFan05; 03-10-2017 at 08:46 AM.
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    Grant Morrison: “Adults...struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life. Adults foolishly demand to know how Superman can possibly fly, or how Batman can possibly run a multibillion-dollar business empire during the day and fight crime at night, when the answer is obvious even to the smallest child: because it's not real.”

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBatmanFan05 View Post
    Batman is not a perfect detective. For example, he didn't completely (correctly?) solve the Holiday murders in L.Halloween, and Morrison had Batman guess Hurt's ID wrongly in RIP as Mangrove Pierce. Etc, etc. I think it's cool to imagine what Joker might have done to erase his identity....the files maybe burned, the people maybe killed, etc.
    I know...that's just me being a smart@ss...

  11. #11

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    It would be an enormous mistake to give the Joker a definitive origin. Any origin should be vague and contradicted by other possible origins. Who he was before he became the Joker doesn't actually matter.

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