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  1. #1
    Incredible Member SuperCrab's Avatar
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    Default Action Comics 19-20 (New52) versus Action Comics 975 (Rebirth)

    So, I was reading Action Comics Volume 4 last night, the parts that I think equate to issues #19 and #20 (I have since the time I bought that switched to no collections and only individual issues, but I am obviously not re-purchasing what I already have in collection form).

    I was really struck by how I loved those two rather ordinary New52 issues and how much more I enjoyed them than I enjoyed the Rebirth Action Comics #975.

    I thought Andy Diggle really nailed the relationship between Clark Kent and Lois Lane- much more nuanced and adult than Rebirth. I loved the artwork from Matt "Batt" Banning- which I thought was stylized in a more realistic way than the more cartoonish looking Rebirth. Lois Lane, for example, is really hot in #19. I wouldn't say that the Lois in Rebirth is good looking or bad looking- she is too cartoonish for me to process in that way at all (The exception might be that issue with New52 Lois typing in her apartment before she died).

    There were a ton of great action scenes and Superman stylized to look and act menacing while doing good in the New52 stuff I was reading. It wasn't weight down by my family this, or here's this guy with candy canes in the background because he's jealous of Superman's son that.

    Veritas the parasitic hand thing were done well. I liked the action scenes at sea.

    Like, I really do not get Rebirth. I've now read every issue of the two main Rebirth books (Superman and Action Comics) and I still don't get why people like them so much.

    I'll grant people that Truth went on overly long and there were some groan-worthy points (Though I think there were also some good parts, and it was a good idea- it just needed to be condensed some), but this decision to change from the New52 was made before Truth.

    And, really what I happened to be rereading from the New52 this week and the new issue of the Rebirth Action Comics brought something into focus for me. It isn't just that one Superman is younger with a certain costume and at a certain place in his place with certain tendencies, and that the Rebirth Superman is older with a different costume and at a different place in his life with somewhat different tendencies. It isn't just that one has a son and one doesn't. I mean, in all those cases, I lean towards the New52 Superman heavily, but that's not all there is to it.

    I really do feel like, and I'm finally able to put my finger on it, there is a difference in the artwork and writing that has nothing to do directly with which Superman is which or the ancillary cast and so on and so forth, or at least is separate from that- which is that I think the New52 was trying to be slick, realistic (for superhero comic books, obviously, it's a relative thing), with a certain dramatic maturity and complexity, and set to appeal to the type of people who'd watch a television drama or action movie; whereas I think the Superman Rebirth is cartoonish both in artwork and in the stories they tell and how they tell them, the equivalent of a Saturday Morning Cartoon.

    I mean, even when you look at how the two eras both used Mxy, there's a difference.

    I don't understand why they had to do such a 180 or why it's so beloved. Beyond that, I can't understand why they can't throw people who got into what they did for 5 years of their flagship titles a bone and have a comic that continues in the same vein in an alternate universe or whatever. It's always got to be one or the other, it seems like. They publish dozens of issues of comics every month and there's no room for a New52 style Superman title?
    Last edited by SuperCrab; 03-10-2017 at 08:07 PM.

  2. #2
    Astonishing Member FishyZombie's Avatar
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    I think you mean Action Comics #975 not #775 buddy

  3. #3
    Astonishing Member FishyZombie's Avatar
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    Morrison had a pretty great run on N52 Superman, but I think it's a mistake to want every Superman comic to be like that. Though I sorta agree Gleason's Lois could use some work.
    Last edited by FishyZombie; 03-10-2017 at 07:09 PM.

  4. #4
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    I think the big difference is that many people who enjoyed pre-Flashpoint Superman (and his married life with Lois) may not have like the New52 version. The fact that Geoff Johns insisted on having the Superman & Wonder Woman coupling without sufficient, well-written set-up leading up to it (it just sort-of was "there" by the end of the first 12 issues of his Justice League) also was a bit of a slap in the face (or sucker punch to the gut) for people who had always cared about some sort of Superman and Lois Lane personal relationship.
    (Also, DC made tons of mistakes with Nuperman in general. I hated the fact they seemed to screw over George Pérez royally with his New52 Superman run.)

  5. #5
    Astonishing Member DragonPiece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    I think the big difference is that many people who enjoyed pre-Flashpoint Superman (and his married life with Lois) may not have like the New52 version. The fact that Geoff Johns insisted on having the Superman & Wonder Woman coupling without sufficient, well-written set-up leading up to it (it just sort-of was "there" by the end of the first 12 issues of his Justice League) also was a bit of a slap in the face (or sucker punch to the gut) for people who had always cared about some sort of Superman and Lois Lane personal relationship.
    (Also, DC made tons of mistakes with Nuperman in general. I hated the fact they seemed to screw over George Pérez royally with his New52 Superman run.)
    wasn't the original reasn they had them be a couple was because they were planning some big event with superman and ww breaking up, but got scrapped for some reason, which is also why Trinity War ended up being what it is?

  6. #6
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonPiece View Post
    wasn't the original reasn they had them be a couple was because they were planning some big event with superman and ww breaking up, but got scrapped for some reason, which is also why Trinity War ended up being what it is?
    Don't know . . . I didn't pay much attention to Justice League after wasting my time and money on those first twelve issues, and also pretty much gave up on Superman once Lobdell became involved in writing his book. (Wasn't thrilled with Morrison's Action Comics run, either and gave up on that with issue #8 I think.)
    I was reading/enjoying Wonder Woman (prior to the run by the Finches), but that seemed to blatantly ignore the Super/Wonder coupling.

  7. #7
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    The Diggle/Daniels issues were better than Jurgen's Action, but that's more to do with how terrible the latter is. I think Tomasi and Gleason's 'Superman' is better than the Diggle/Daniels Action issues, even if I despised the former's opening arc.

    And when it comes to art, it isn't even close, Gleason's cartoony art is better than anything from the Diggle/Daniels issues.

  8. #8
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    I think the big difference is that many people who enjoyed pre-Flashpoint Superman (and his married life with Lois) may not have like the New52 version. The fact that Geoff Johns insisted on having the Superman & Wonder Woman coupling without sufficient, well-written set-up leading up to it (it just sort-of was "there" by the end of the first 12 issues of his Justice League) also was a bit of a slap in the face (or sucker punch to the gut) for people who had always cared about some sort of Superman and Lois Lane personal relationship.
    (Also, DC made tons of mistakes with Nuperman in general. I hated the fact they seemed to screw over George Pérez royally with his New52 Superman run.)
    Yep. This right here.

    It wasn't so much they went the SM/WW route. It's how quickly it just happened, with no context. No build up. It wasn't earned. It was literally like, 5 panels across 12 issues of a nod to flirting, then the kiss and then suddenly it was pushed like this epic love story? Nope. Sorry. Not how it works. Add insult to injury to how for some reason there was little or no dynamic with Lois and Superman...it just felt hollow. It all felt hollow. Not to say people didn't try. Charles Soule did the best he could in his book and in some ways succeeded, and in the aforementioned ACTION issues the OP mentioned Diggle tried to actually create a dynamic between Lois and Clark, as did Perez prior,but it was all underdeveloped.

    As for the OP...I liked those issues. I like ACTION#975. All for different reasons. However, a character like Superman should be written and produced to reach all ages and demographics. He should largely be a character for kids from 8 to 80. I don't mind the occasional more "adult" storyline or the occasional more "serious" take, but we had that for 5 years (some would even argue much longer). We've only had, what, 8 months of the current direction? Why does everything have to be all "serious business"? If anything, the sense of wonder, the big emotional beats, the small mundane and the big cosmic in equal measure has been missing from Superman and his world for far too long to his detriment. I honestly think we needed a break from "realism" for a while. So, While I definitely see where the OP is coming from,I honestly don't think the change of tone is a bad thing. If the sales and reception are to be believed, I think most agree.

    Everything is cyclical. I'm sure the day will come where the tone and direction will need to undergo a change. Until then, I'm going to continue buying and enjoying where this all leads.
    When it comes to comics,one person's "fan-service" is another persons personal cannon. So by definition it's ALL fan service. Aren't we ALL fans?
    SUPERMAN is the greatest fictional character ever created.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperCrab View Post
    I really do feel like, and I'm finally able to put my finger on it, there is a difference in the artwork and writing that has nothing to do directly with which Superman is which or the ancillary cast and so on and so forth, or at least is separate from that- which is that I think the New52 was trying to be slick, realistic (for superhero comic books, obviously, it's a relative thing), with a certain dramatic maturity and complexity, and set to appeal to the type of people who'd watch a television drama or action movie; whereas I think the Superman Rebirth is cartoonish both in artwork and in the stories they tell and how they tell them, the equivalent of a Saturday Morning Cartoon.
    What you call "dramatic maturity" many other people would call "soap opera-style melodramatics." The New 52 Superman tried to be angsty and tortured and it just came off flat. Everything about his relationship with Wonder Woman was pushed as "too epic for words" even when it really didn't feel earned.

    There's also the fact that the New 52 in general destroyed decades-worth of stories that 95% of the fanbase had spent years of their lives investing in. But, I'm not going to get into that now.

  10. #10
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    To this day, we have not received a direct answer on why Diggle and Daniel left, in their own words at least. Daniel came back a little later for SMWW so it wasn't really his problem I guess. I was extremely excited when they came on, and extremely disappointed that it went nowhere. But I'm glad they happened, so that you're able to find some comics you enjoy.

  11. #11
    Incredible Member SuperCrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FishyZombie View Post
    I think you mean Action Comics #975 not #775 buddy
    Yup. True. I went back and fixed it as in the original post as much as I could when I saw your post a few minutes ago, but I can't edit the thread name itself (Only mods have that power- if anyone does). Hopefully people get what I meant.

    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    The fact that Geoff Johns insisted on having the Superman & Wonder Woman coupling without sufficient, well-written set-up leading up to it (it just sort-of was "there" by the end of the first 12 issues of his Justice League) also was a bit of a slap in the face (or sucker punch to the gut) for people who had always cared about some sort of Superman and Lois Lane personal relationship.
    When I look at it, I am not really sure Superman's relationship with Wonder Woman actually meant he cared about Lois any less. He clearly had feelings for Lois, but was clearly worried that dating her would endanger her, and distract his focus from his mission, meaning he was afraid he might prioritize protecting her over protecting Metropolis, the country, the planet, etc.. With Wonder Woman, there was no issue- she basically lived the same life he did and had a power-set and all that stuff, and was insistent that they both prioritize their missions over their relationship. It made perfect sense in a pragmatic sort of way, and they were a nice looking couple, and something that hadn't been explored yet to a large degree in the history of both mythos. It also made the friendly relationship with Lois more interesting- she made some sort of jealous joke about Greek gods that was a great one-liner.

    Also, I felt like Lois was a better character in the New52 than in Rebirth. As Rebirth Lois herself said, there was no way she would have outed Clark's secret identity to the world. However, Lois Lane is supposed to be a hard-nosed reporter who believes the public has the right to know things like that. Also, the New52 Lois figured out Clark's secret identity faster- which makes sense, because she's supposed to be a good investigative journalist. She was a stronger character. Of course, she was revealing Superman's identity in part to prevent him from being blackmailed and tortured, which gave the writers an out and also makes sense, but the whole thing would have been great to explore had they kept Clark working with her during Truth, or if he returned to the Daily Planet after truth for a long time, and to see that dynamic play out and them not just say they are putting it behind them, but actually work on the resentments and the real feelings.

    I also think he dynamic of Clark loving Lois and Lois loving Superman was always interesting, and that's another thing we lose with married Lois and Clark as a long-term status quo.

    However, one thing I am beginning to see is that it isn't really just about that- how old Superman is, who Superman is with, and whether he's married or single. They could do some things with a married Lois and Clark that'd be interesting if they had the same approach to storytelling as in the New52. Maybe Lois would have kissed the Mystery Clark and felt guilty, but not been as attracted to Clark the farmer, and maybe at the same time, the history of the New52 characters would have caused some tension in the marriage with Lois not liking Clark's teaming up with Wonder Woman and Clark feeling like she was blaming him for something he didn't do, and Wonder Woman not wanting to break up a marriage but being written in a way where you knew she still loved Clark, then when Lois is cheating on Clark with Fake-Clark, maybe Clark has an affair with Wonder Woman, or comes close to it. These characters are not being written in interesting three-dimensional ways, they're written like they're in a children's cartoon show.

    I hated the fact they seemed to screw over George Pérez royally with his New52 Superman run.)
    They should have told Perez what Superman's status quo was. There was no excuse for them not answering him when he asked if Superman's adoptive parents were alive or not, and stuff like that. He needed to be let in on stuff. I don't know if they had no plan or didn't want to tell him, but either way, it's a bad situation to put him in that was bad for the comic. Still, I think his run is underrated- those issues were very good under the circumstances. I really liked them.

    Quote Originally Posted by manofsteel1979 View Post
    As for the OP...I liked those issues. I like ACTION#975. All for different reasons. However, a character like Superman should be written and produced to reach all ages and demographics. He should largely be a character for kids from 8 to 80. I don't mind the occasional more "adult" storyline or the occasional more "serious" take, but we had that for 5 years (some would even argue much longer). We've only had, what, 8 months of the current direction? Why does everything have to be all "serious business"? If anything, the sense of wonder, the big emotional beats, the small mundane and the big cosmic in equal measure has been missing from Superman and his world for far too long to his detriment. I honestly think we needed a break from "realism" for a while. So, While I definitely see where the OP is coming from,I honestly don't think the change of tone is a bad thing. If the sales and reception are to be believed, I think most agree.
    It'd be nice if it didn't have to be all one way or the other. They could have multiple Supermen, or one Superman, but comics with different sensibilities. Like, if they merge the two Supermen into one in the next couple weeks, as is rumored, why couldn't one Superman title be written in this cartoony family-friendly style, and the other be written in the New52 mature audience dramatic style, with artwork to match each style? They could be the same guy, but with each title having a very different tone and telling different types of stories aimed at different audiencess with different types of artwork, obviously with some collaboration to ensure that they are in continuity with each other, but largely separate stories and feels. Maybe one title could even have Superman think more on his New52 memories and themes and the other could be more Rebirth/Post-Crisis memories and themes. They won't do it, but they could.

    I feel like the way DC Comics always feels it "has" to go in one direction or another cheats the audience, in a lot of ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    There's also the fact that the New 52 in general destroyed decades-worth of stories that 95% of the fanbase had spent years of their lives investing in. But, I'm not going to get into that now.
    Well, maybe they should have had the New52 Superman be the modern Superman in the Superman title and the Justice League crossovers, and continued the Post-Crisis Superman in an alt-universe Action Comics in the first place, back in 2011. They could have done it like Earth-1 and Earth-2 back when Earth-1 in the 70s was a then-modern Superman with a modernized mythos and setting, and Earth-2 was an old-fashioned Superman in the older mythos and setting. I don't know why they haven't revisited that approach. It actually *is* possible to make everyone happy, in a lot of respects, and they just don't want to do it, for whatever reason.
    Last edited by SuperCrab; 03-11-2017 at 12:07 AM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperCrab View Post
    Well, maybe they should have had the New52 Superman be the modern Superman in the Superman title and the Justice League crossovers, and continued the Post-Crisis Superman in an alt-universe Action Comics in the first place, back in 2011. They could have done it like Earth-1 and Earth-2 back when Earth-1 in the 70s was a then-modern Superman with a modernized mythos and setting, and Earth-2 was an old-fashioned Superman in the older mythos and setting. I don't know why they haven't revisited that approach. It actually *is* possible to make everyone happy, in a lot of respects, and they just don't want to do it, for whatever reason.
    What they should have done was just launch the New 52 as a completely separate line of comics from the main DC Universe back in 2011 and just continued the DCU as it was. Let the real DCU be the real DCU and the New 52 should have been like Marvel's Ultimates.

    In other words, Pre-Flashpoint Superman (and the Pre-FP characters) should be the star of the main DCU Superman and JLA titles and then Nuperman and the rest of New 52 characters should be the stars of their own separate universe that's NOT the main DCU.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 03-10-2017 at 09:08 PM.

  13. #13
    Astonishing Member FishyZombie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperCrab View Post


    When I look at it, I am not really sure Superman's relationship with Wonder Woman actually meant he cared about Lois any less. He clearly had feelings for Lois, but was clearly worried that dating her would endanger her, and distract his focus from his mission, meaning he was afraid he might prioritize protecting her over protecting Metropolis, the country, the planet, etc.. With Wonder Woman, there was no issue- she basically lived the same life he did and had a power-set and all that stuff, and was insistent that they both prioritize their missions over their relationship. It made perfect sense in a pragmatic sort of way, and they were a nice looking couple, and something that hadn't been explored yet to a large degree in the history of both mythos. It also made the friendly relationship with Lois more interesting- she made some sort of jealous joke about Greek gods that was a great one-liner.

    Also, I felt like Lois was a better character in the New52 than in Rebirth. As Rebirth Lois herself said, there was no way she would have outed Clark's secret identity to the world. However, Lois Lane is supposed to be a hard-nosed reporter who believes the public has the right to know things like that. Also, the New52 Lois figured out Clark's secret identity faster- which makes sense, because she's supposed to be a good investigative journalist. She was a stronger character. Of course, she was revealing Superman's identity in part to prevent him from being blackmailed and tortured, which gave the writers an out and also makes sense, but the whole thing would have been great to explore had they kept Clark working with her during Truth, or if he returned to the Daily Planet after truth for a long time, and to see that dynamic play out and them not just say they are putting it behind them, but actually work on the resentments and the real feelings.

    I also think he dynamic of Clark loving Lois and Lois loving Superman was always interesting, and that's another thing we lose with married Lois and Clark as a long-term status quo.

    However, one thing I am beginning to see is that it isn't really just about that- who Superman is with and whether he's married or single. They could do some things with a married Lois and Clark that'd be interested if they had the same approach to storytelling as in the New52. Maybe Lois would have kissed the Mystery Clark and felt guilty, but not been as attracted to Clark the farmer, maybe at the same time, the history of the New52 characters would have caused some tension in the marriage with Lois not liking Clark's teaming up with Wonder Woman and Clark feeling like she was blaming him for something he didn't do, and Wonder Woman not wanting to break up a marriage but being written in a way where you knew she still loved Clark, then when Lois is cheating on Clark with Fake-Clark, maybe Clark has an affair with Wonder Woman, or comes close to it. These characters are not being written in interesting three-dimensional ways, they're written like they're in a children's cartoon show.



    They should have told Perez what Superman's status quo was. There was no excuse for them answering him when he asked if Superman's adoptive parents were alive or not, and stuff like that. He needed to be let in on stuff. I don't know if they had no plan or didn't want to tell him, but either way, it's a bad situation to put him in that was bad for the comic. Still, I think his run is underrated- those issues were very good under the circumstances. I really liked them.



    It'd be nice if it didn't have to be all one way or the other. They could have multiple Supermen, or one Superman, but comics with different sensibilities. Like, if they merge the two Supermen into one in the next couple weeks, as is rumored, why couldn't one Superman title be written in this cartoony family-friendly style, and the other be written in the New52 mature audience dramatic style, with artwork to match each style? They could be the same guy, but with each title having a very different tone and telling different types of stories aimed at different audiences with different types of artwork, obviously with some collaboration to ensure that they are in continuity with each other, but largely separate stories and feels. Maybe one title could even have Superman think more on his New52 memories and themes and the other could be more Rebirth/Post-Crisis memories and themes. They won't do it, but they could.

    I feel like the way DC Comics always feels it "has" to go in one direction or another cheats the audience, in a lot of ways.
    .
    This is kind of what Zeeguy was saying about making Superman too melodramatic. I really have no interest Superman comics read like am angsty CW show. Anyway making Wonder Woman have such an significant role in Superman's life at the expense of Lois and other underutilized Superman female characters was also a mistake. That's why most Wonder Woman comics ignored the Superman pairing, the various subfranchises of the dcu work best went they aren't linked together so closely. Wonder Woman should have a minimal presence in Superman books and vice seversa. But if you insist on having her there, I'd hope writers could come up with better use of her than making her Superman's sidechick.
    I'm not saying Superman absolutely needs to be with Lois. He doesn't, but he shouldn't be with the lead of a another corner of the dcu. That's the kind of thing you do when you've run out of ideas. Just to be clear, I liked New 52 Superman, I thought he was a solid take on the character. But I didn't think that the stories just were strong enough to justify regressing Superman into bachelor and taking away decades of his history. And judging by the critics, I wasn't the only one who felt that way.
    Last edited by FishyZombie; 03-10-2017 at 09:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FishyZombie View Post
    I'm not saying Superman absolutely needs to be with Lois. He doesn't, but he shouldn't be with the lead of a another corner of the dcu. That's the kind of thing you do when you've run out of ideas. Just to be clear, I liked New 52 Superman, I thought he was a solid take on the character. But I didn't think that the stories just were strong enough to justify regressing Superman into bachelor and taking away decades of his history. And judging by the critics, I wasn't the only one who felt that way.
    Oh, I'm saying he 100% needs to be with Lois. Lois is and always has been Superman's main love interest. Even people who've never picked up a comic in their life know about Lois and Clark's relationship. When I told one of my "non-comic" friends (during the New 52) that Lois and Clark were no longer married, her jaw dropped and she said "I refuse to accept that."

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    Incredible Member SuperCrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    What they should have done was just launch the New 52 as a completely separate line of comics from the main DC Universe back in 2011 and just continued the DCU as it was. Let the real DCU be the real DCU and the New 52 should have been like Marvel's Ultimates.

    In other words, Pre-Flashpoint Superman (and the Pre-FP characters) should be the star of the main DCU Superman and JLA titles and then Nuperman and the rest of New 52 characters should be the stars of their own separate universe that's NOT the main DCU.
    At this point, it'd be better than what we New52 Superman fans have and are going to get. It'd be nice if they could find a way to serve both audiences- and I don't just mean saying "This is the Superman we have and everyone needs to love him" or whatever thing one of the Rebirth writers said about Superman Blue a while back, I mean really serve both audiences. If they do a merger, at least meet in the middle in terms of tone and artwork, or have books that lean each way.

    But the simplest thing would be to just keep them separate in two separate universes, with the "losing" one getting a single monthly to continue his story- which I guess would be the New52 Superman as things have worked out, but could have been the Pre-Crisis Superman back in 2011. I don't see what sense it makes if you even have 40 or 50,000 fans who want to read stories with a certain tone and sensibility to tell them "No, we won't publish that. Go suck an egg.". I mean, they publish titles that sell 20,000 issues, cancel one of those and replace it with a New52 Superman book and I guarantee even with a new title and in an alternate continuity, it at least doubles the readership of what it replaces.

    If its like Highlander and there can only be one for reasons I don't understand, do the more adult dramatic realistic artwork action New52 style stories and artwork in one book with the cartoony G-Rated family stuff in the other, or create a third title for the New52-like take on the Reborn Superman. There's no reason each book has to feature a similar tone and style of storytelling.

    But, basically, I'm agreeing with you, at least in terms of what would be better than the current status quo- I'd take an Ultimate Superman title featuring the New52 Superman in a gritter universe that might also feature other heroes who have theor own books set in that universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by FishyZombie View Post
    This is kind of what Zeeguy was saying about making Superman too melodramatic. I really have no interest Superman comics read like am angsty CW show.
    Arrow, The Flash, Legends of Tomorrow, and Supergirl are all doing pretty well on the CW, aren't they? So, it seems like there is a market for it. I'll admit, the first few episodes of Arrow were a bit too, um, CW-y, but around episode 8, they seemed to get their sealegs and reach a good footing. Then later I think writing out the "Mom" character helped. You don't want these shows to feel like they are about teenagers who are sort of artificially presented as 25, yiu want them to actually *be* adults, but there's nothing wrong with exploring their feelings and relationships if done in a thoughtful compelling manor, and without skimping on the action and grittiness.

    Caveat: I am a season behind on all those shows. I watch them on Netflix when they appear there, a whole season at once after they are done airing on network TV. So if I saw something that seems outdated, that's why.

    Anyway making Wonder Woman have such an significant role in Superman's life at the expense of Lois and other underutilized Superman female characters was also a mistake. That's why most Wonder Woman comics ignored the Superman pairing, the various subfranchises of the dcu work best went they aren't linked together so closely. Wonder Woman should have a minimal presence in Superman books and vice-versa.
    To be honest, I only read Wonder Woman when she is in books featuring Superman. I never really saw the appeal of the character until she was presented in a different way in the New52 in Superman, Action Comics, Justice League, and Superman-Wonderwoman. I thought about expanding to buy her solo book, but heard that the writer was ignoring the Superman romance, and hesitated, and then with Rebirth, they apparently at least 50% reverted the character to Pre-New52 and did a story arc who's premise apparently involves Wonder Woman characterizing all her New52 experiences as "lies", over and over again.

    Its weird to read Trinity and realize that Batman is the only one of the three characters who is the same one I was reading last year and who would remember being in those stories and accept them as his own true reality and past.

    Just to be clear, I liked New 52 Superman, I thought he was a solid take on the character. But I didn't think that the stories just were strong enough to justify regressing Superman into bachelor and taking away decades of his history. And judging by the critics, I wasn't the only one who felt that way.
    Except those are basically Superman's best years as a character. It makes sense to do them again and see how things develop differently every so often. After 25 years, SuperDad got the girl, beat every villian six times, and basically did everything there was to do- the story is basically done, unless they want to do stories about him raising kids and farming, which they apparently do. I'd rather see it start over with a modern setting and some surprises, which is what they did, and I get that that didn't resonate with everyone, but they didn't have to go from like half a dozen bioks that featured that to zero while basically telling anyone who wanting to read that they have no taste and that their hero sucked. Its a bit surreal to see some of the same guys who invented New52 Superman basically bury him and riducule people for liking what they told us all to like for five years.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Oh, I'm saying he 100% needs to be with Lois. Lois is and always has been Superman's main love interest. Even people who've never picked up a comic in their life know about Lois and Clark's relationship. When I told one of my "non-comic" friends (during the New 52) that Lois and Clark were no longer married, her jaw dropped and she said "I refuse to accept that."
    So, a person who doesn't read comic books refuses to accept a development in a comic book character's life. Why should that dictate the direction of the comics? That's not someone who used to read and then stopped because they didn't like the direction or got bored, and who might come back, nor is it someone who would potentially start reading comics if something developed in a way that appealed to them (ie They would have been reading Pre-Flashpoint if Clark and Lois being together was the missing thing keeping them from reading).

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