Action Comics 19-20 (New52) versus Action Comics 975 (Rebirth)

[adrikito]

There was nothing abut NewSupes I could take seriously, he never even spoke like a real person.

Actually, I think Supercrab suggesting "our" Superman caters to people who watch television or action movies does more to describe HIS kind of fan because, despite the feel-good fun factor of DC tv shows, a lot of other tv dramas are like the N52... pessimistic angst-driven levels of pseudo-mature crap that cater to the edgelord demographic

And...rofl, the Batman comics are on a whole other level alright...you do know half of us are only enjoying King's run IRONICALLY right? The Catwoman romance and anything with Bane aside, the book's been terrible so far. Synder's All-Star is the supreme Bat-Book at the moment, and I'm not even a Snyder fanboy.

I just said.. That I enjoyed N52 Superman, nothing more.. You should not have insulted him, I did not say anything against your superman in my previous comment.

I don´t need hear the imperfections of N52. You hate All N52, I was able to enjoy it.. With certain exceptions, of course. I didn´t come to discuss.

I rarely come here... I only want help Supercrab..

About batman ... I Respect almost all the mythology.. I read old comics(batman, batman robin vol1, batgirl vol 2 and 3.. and more) Before 2010, the batfamily was better with the perfect members..

About Batman in rebirth.. I liked Detective Comics.. With batman I hope for a better future. Without BANE the comic loses strength and All-Star Batman was a strange bat comic for me, I leave this comic a long time ago..

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

But your missing the point of Flashpoint, Everything was done against the Characters will. They didn't choose to be reborn as the New52 lot that choice was Made for them. They had the play the cards that were dealt to them. Some started off with better hands then others, some bluffed and anted there way into better hands, Some went bust and left the game but they all kept playing. Rebirth was akin to flipping the table saying the other guy was cheating and shooting him dead. New 52 Superman's parents died in a car crash, that right there showed him of out frailty since a car crash wouldn't have fazed him yet took his Ma and Pa away. He was still a kid then. Late teens yes but still a Kid. Orhaned again. Yet he still became Superman, on his terms, his way, HIS. This Superman was a Self Made Man. The Jeans and T-Shirt were His Circus Uniform, He took his fight to the Corrupt both as Clark at the DailyStar and As Superman in a world where Superheroes were a new thing. Batman, Flash, Aquaman, GL, WW they were all just starting out together, Hell we got to see the Birth of Cyborg. Young, Cocky and Strong They ready to save the world and holy **** they Did. They beat a Darkseid that had been kicking everyone's ass up to that point and these Kids Beat him. Bravo! That's why I loved the New 52, It was fresh, it was exciting and it was unpredictable. One of the Mandates of the New52 was to create new villans, they tried. Some worked, some didn't but you gotta keep trying. For every H'el there's a Phantom King right. Not only that but Batman and Supes were True Bros again with no baggage to sour the relationship. I'd trade thousand rebirth just for that. Bruce's reaction after Clark told him of his impending death was priceless.

First off, none of what you're talking about has anything to do with what I'm talking about. I did get the point of the New 52. What I'm saying is that the whole premise was AWFUL. Again, people don't WANT to read rehashes of the same old developments and regressions of the characters to the point where they no longer command the respect and admiration they once had. Tell me any other form of fiction that operates on the notion that storylines, plot threads, and even entire characters, all built on each other over years, can just be selectively erased from existence. You think anybody would be happy if J.K. Rowling decides to write another Harry Potter book, but erase Hermione from existence? Again, no.

Superman had fans before 2011 who invested in his life and his adventures and watched him develop into the man he was. Same thing for pretty much every other character in the DCU. You say you loved seeing the birth of Cyborg? Well, Cyborg had already been "born" in stories told WELL before the New 52. In stories that were, by any stretch of the imagination better told and displayed his character far better than any of the New 52 comics did. And his introduction wasn't the only thing that was better, so was his personal growth and character development as a member of the Teen Titans. Tell me, what has Cyborg done on the League that's all that important? He mostly just sits in the background, literally. In Titans, he actually DID stuff.

Also, putting aside the fact that Pre-Flashpoint stories were just all-around better, there's the fact that, again, those were the stories that people invested in for DECADES. Someone who had been following Cyborg since his New Teen Titans days in the early 80s and reading all the stories he'd been in for over 30 years would NOT be happy to see all of the stuff he'd been through and all the things he'd done just thrown out the window. I wasn't even following the character for nearly that long as I got into comics in the early 2000s, but I was livid at how they took a character who was a seasoned and experienced hero in Titans, one of the most cherished members of the team and even one of their leaders, and made him into a piece of furniture on the League.

And I really fail to see how Nuperman was self-made, while Pre-Flashpoint Superman was not. Nuperman's suit wasn't even something he made himself. It was "Kryptonian armor." I mean, have you even tried to read some of the Superman comics that you condemn? I'm talking about the Pre-Flashpoint ones here.

And, also, the New 52 wasn't fresh or new or exciting. It was soulless. It reeked of someone who watched too many Michael Bay films and was stuck in the 90s.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

It would have been nice if they stuck with the idea of starting over fresh across the board for the whole line, but if DC was truly serious about starting from scratch and not being tied to the previous universe, then they shouldn't have done the whole five years later crap and started everyone off at year zero. No 5 Robin's in 5 years. No Kyle Rayner and all the other various earth GL's. Everyone gets a fresh start and the universe gets built organically.

That's exactly the point. DC knew they couldn't do that. They knew that fans liked Batman and Green Lantern because of all that continuity and mythology and those characters that had been built up and introduced over the past 70 or so years. They knew that if they erased characters like Kyle and Jason and Dick and Damian, the majority of fans would just walk away (hell, many fans did walk away because some things were changed like Cass and Steph and Tim no longer being a Robin). However, what they didn't realize was that, ultimately, that was also true of the REST of the DCU as well, as fans were invested in the other franchises AND the DCU as a whole because of the developments, mythology and characters introduced over the decades.

[Netherman14]

But your missing the point of Flashpoint, Everything was done against the Characters will. They didn't choose to be reborn as the New52 lot that choice was Made for them. They had the play the cards that were dealt to them. Some started off with better hands then others, some bluffed and anted there way into better hands, Some went bust and left the game but they all kept playing. Rebirth was akin to flipping the table saying the other guy was cheating and shooting him dead. New 52 Superman's parents died in a car crash, that right there showed him of out frailty since a car crash wouldn't have fazed him yet took his Ma and Pa away. He was still a kid then. Late teens yes but still a Kid. Orhaned again. Yet he still became Superman, on his terms, his way, HIS. This Superman was a Self Made Man. The Jeans and T-Shirt were His Circus Uniform, He took his fight to the Corrupt both as Clark at the DailyStar and As Superman in a world where Superheroes were a new thing. Batman, Flash, Aquaman, GL, WW they were all just starting out together, Hell we got to see the Birth of Cyborg. Young, Cocky and Strong They ready to save the world and holy **** they Did. They beat a Darkseid that had been kicking everyone's ass up to that point and these Kids Beat him. Bravo! That's why I loved the New 52, It was fresh, it was exciting and it was unpredictable. One of the Mandates of the New52 was to create new villans, they tried. Some worked, some didn't but you gotta keep trying. For every H'el there's a Phantom King right. Not only that but Batman and Supes were True Bros again with no baggage to sour the relationship. I'd trade thousand rebirth just for that. Bruce's reaction after Clark told him of his impending death was priceless.

First off, none of what you're talking about has anything to do with what I'm talking about. I did get the point of the New 52. What I'm saying is that the whole premise was AWFUL. Again, people don't WANT to read rehashes of the same old developments and regressions of the characters to the point where they no longer command the respect and admiration they once had. Tell me any other form of fiction that operates on the notion that storylines, plot threads, and even entire characters, all built on each other over years, can just be selectively erased from existence. You think anybody would be happy if J.K. Rowling decides to write another Harry Potter book, but erase Hermione from existence? Again, no.

Superman had fans before 2011 who invested in his life and his adventures and watched him develop into the man he was. Same thing for pretty much every other character in the DCU. You say you loved seeing the birth of Cyborg? Well, Cyborg had already been "born" in stories told WELL before the New 52. In stories that were, by any stretch of the imagination better told and displayed his character far better than any of the New 52 comics did. And his introduction wasn't the only thing that was better, so was his personal growth and character development as a member of the Teen Titans. Tell me, what has Cyborg done on the League that's all that important? He mostly just sits in the background, literally. In Titans, he actually DID stuff.

Also, putting aside the fact that Pre-Flashpoint stories were just all-around better, there's the fact that, again, those were the stories that people invested in for DECADES. Someone who had been following Cyborg since his New Teen Titans days in the early 80s and reading all the stories he'd been in for over 30 years would NOT be happy to see all of the stuff he'd been through and all the things he'd done just thrown out the window. I wasn't even following the character for nearly that long as I got into comics in the early 2000s, but I was livid at how they took a character who was a seasoned and experienced hero in Titans, one of the most cherished members of the team and even one of their leaders, and made him into a piece of furniture on the League.

And I really fail to see how Nuperman was self-made, while Pre-Flashpoint Superman was not. Nuperman's suit wasn't even something he made himself. It was "Kryptonian armor." I mean, have you even tried to read some of the Superman comics that you condemn? I'm talking about the Pre-Flashpoint ones here.

And, also, the New 52 wasn't fresh or new or exciting. It reeked of someone who watched too many Michael Bay films and was stuck in the 90s.

Way to miss the point, nowhere did Lokimaru mention the armor. he mentioned the T-shirt and Jeans look, and how THAT helped make Nuperman a self-made man.

[SuperCrab]

Says who? Please, tell me any other form of fiction that operates on that notion. If J.K. Rowling were to come out with new Harry Potter books, would fans wants her to pick up with a Harry who never went to Hogwarts or fought Voldemort? Uh...no.

Movies. Star Trek essentially pulled a Flashpoint with a time traveling villain resetting the classic universe in a Flashpoint type way, and new (New52-like) takes on Kirk, Spock, McCoy, etc. played by different younger actors finding their ways in an altered universe. A key planet was destroyed that wasn't before, a romance occurred that didn't before, the events of Star Trek II basically happened backwards, Kirk led a very different life and is only partially the same character, etc.. Those movies do well at the box office.

In fact, Superman movies do that. Batman movies (More successfully) have redone Batman like 4-5 times. Hugh Jackman's last Wolverine movie is out now and then presumably they'll be later movies with at least a slightly different universe and a new Wolverine.

James Bond goes through the same thing as well.

I think the deal is kind of that if you are just writing a short series of three, or even seven, prose novels, rebooting would be kind of ridiculous- you haven't told the story yet, or will tell it over the course of the novels you still have to write. On the other hand, if you do a comic for 80 years, or a movie series for 40-50 years, that changes things, and it becomes more like long-running movie franchises that need to be at least partially reinvented and modernized every so often.

Better something lively and animated with proper moral family values than something cold, crass and cruel like those Jerry Springer subplots you mention

What about some comics for people who aren't right-wingers?

[manofsteel1979]

Could someone explain to me how Nuperman was an edgelord? I mean, if I understand the definition correctly, I don't see how he was edgelord material. There a legitimate gripes with the New 52 era Supes. We don't need to assign a buzzword because it sounds like an ultimate burn even though it doesn't apply. But maybe I misunderstand.

[SuperCrab]

Yes, I follow him because I see him a realistic and serious character focused in superman mythology..

SuperCrab .. Read that:

Before N52 MY IDOLS were the Batfamily... Then, during N52, Superman and the Batfamily.. Now the Batfamily again.... I liked another comics like Green lanterns/Deathstroke/Aquaman and another things but these IDOLS are special for me.

The things change.. Don´t you like the current superman? Find another idol in DC/Marvel or in another place and forget the character...Or look for the equivalent of your ideal superman.. THIS CHANGE IS FOREVER.. Don´t you enjoy it? Don´t buy it.

Well, I did try some other comics- some got cancelled by the comic book companies, some I decided weren't for me (Or the kind of thing I just wanted to buy occasionally), and some I'm still reading (Just recently I picked up a lot of Old Man Logan [2016-] issues during a couple sales. Black Science I've been reading for almost a year now, plus caught up on all the back issues. I recommend both). But none of them are Superman.

So, I keep cancelling my Superman subs and giving up the Superman books for a while, but coming back to them because I like Superman and this is the one we've got. But it's frustrating, because the quality is so low from my subjective perspective- and it gets enough rave reviews that it'll probably stick. I can expand outward and find some things that I like in different places and that helps some, but in the end I still want to read Superman, and so it gets to a point where it's like is this so bad I just can't read Superman anymore? And I'm 50-50 on that.

I'm thinking about cancelling my Superman subs again after Reborn if the last two issues don't seem to birth the type of Superman I'll like at least *a little* better than the Rebirth Superman. I'm not kidding myself about a Reborn Superman really being a ton more like the New52 Superman, but even being a little more like him, with both sets of memories, would help *some*, if they went that route.

As far as Batman goes, I'm not into the character enough to read him aside from when he's in books with Superman, for the most part- those I like, the two play off each other well, especially in the New52 era. Also, Batman has some of the same problems as Superman now does in the Rebirth era, except longer standing- he's always had a teenage adopted kid fighting beside him as Robin, now it's his own younger biological kid, etc.. If they gave me a Batman book that was just all about him brooding in the Batcave and beating up people in the streets at night in Gotham, I'd buy that. I do occasionally get solo Batman books on sale and stuff, but I don't subscribe.

You know what Batman I really liked? Thomas Wayne Batman. The one from the temporary Flashpoint event universe. That one was great. I would subscribe to a Thomas Wayne Batman monthly any day.

[Netherman14]

Could someone explain to me how Nuperman was an edgelord? I mean, if I understand the definition correctly, I don't see how he was edgelord material. There a legitimate gripes with the New 52 era Supes. We don't need to assign a buzzword because it sounds like an ultimate burn even though it doesn't apply. But maybe I misunderstand.

Yeah, I don't see it either. if people want to be taken seriously. don't be childish and resort to buzzwords such as edgelord, I believe (perhaps incorrectly) that all of us here are self-respecting adults who should able to have a discussion that doesn't turn into a childish "my Superman is better than yours" pissing contest every-time.

[Miles To Go]

Those Abrams movies are mostly terrible. Star Trek Beyond's the only really good one. Surprise, surprise, that one casts aside Spock/Uhura for most of the movie, concentrates less on in-fighting between the characters and encourages teamwork, touches on the classic Trek past in a way that doesn't intrude on the main narrative and instead serves character motivations, and has a memorable villain with a pretty simplistic "what have you done for me lately" revenge plot.

I believe (perhaps incorrectly) that all of us here are self-respecting adults who should able to have a discussion that doesn't turn into a childish "my Superman is better than yours" pissing contest every-time.

I'm fairly confident that's the entire reason this thread was created.

[Netherman14]

I believe (perhaps incorrectly) that all of us here are self-respecting adults who should able to have a discussion that doesn't turn into a childish "my Superman is better than yours" pissing contest every-time.

I'm fairly confident that's the entire reason this thread was created.

Which is a damn shame, let the in-fighting remain on Facebook. this should be a civil discussion area, it's not unfortunately. I'm honestly thinking that I should be sticking to Reddit from now.

[SuperCrab]

Thomas Wayne Batman (Flashpoint #1):




Total bad ass. His computer skills were a little lacking, though. I don't feel like looking up and copying the images, but when Flash came to him to look something up, he had to go upstairs to an old computer and use a dial-up modem. It was pretty funny.

They also did a really good three-issue miniseries about Thomas Wayne Batman that tied into, but wasn't a part of the main 7-part Flashpoint series.

[adrikito]

So, I keep cancelling my Superman subs and giving up the Superman books for a while, but coming back to them because I like Superman and this is the one we've got. But it's frustrating, because the quality is so low from my subjective perspective- and it gets enough rave reviews that it'll probably stick. I can expand outward and find some things that I like in different places and that helps some, but in the end I still want to read Superman, and so it gets to a point where it's like is this so bad I just can't read Superman anymore? And I'm 50-50 on that.

As far as Batman goes, I'm not into the character enough to read him aside from when he's in books with Superman, for the most part- those I like, the two play off each other well, especially in the New52 era. Also, Batman has some of the same problems as Superman now does in the Rebirth era, except longer standing- he's always had a teenage adopted kid fighting beside him as Robin, now it's his own younger biological kid, etc.. If they gave me a Batman book that was just all about him brooding in the Batcave and beating up people in the streets at night in Gotham, I'd buy that. I do occasionally get solo Batman books on sale and stuff, but I don't subscribe.

You know what Batman I really liked? Thomas Wayne Batman. The one from the temporary Flashpoint event universe. That one was great. I would subscribe to a Thomas Wayne Batman monthly any day.

Just because I like some versions and certain super series and films I followed the recommendation to see Kingdom Come.. His old Kal, my God superman, the Reeve of the comics for me.. ..

Now I continue with New Super-man(Funny, clon of N52 Superman or no.. NO MATTER ) and Superwoman(I'm interested in SW 10 armor).. And someday I'll take a look to another supermen of another universes..

I liked the moment of Bat-Thomas with Gifter..

[SuperCrab]

Those Abrams movies are mostly terrible. Star Trek Beyond's the only really good one. Surprise, surprise, that one casts aside Spock/Uhura for most of the movie, concentrates less on in-fighting between the characters and encourages teamwork, touches on the classic Trek past in a way that doesn't intrude on the main narrative and instead serves character motivations, and has a memorable villain with a pretty simplistic "what have you done for me lately" revenge plot.

I like all three movies.

I'm fairly confident that's the entire reason this thread was created.

It wasn't. I'm just expressing my opinion and hoping for change- even if the change is just a book with a tone somewhat closer to what I like and not an actual resurrected New52 Superman or a change to the two historic Superman books. Maybe just a third book where Reborn Superman is written and drawn in a way that feels a little darker, realistic, and more adult to me- as something different for those who like it, while not messing with the main books or having an actual second Superman (Since they appear to not be willing to do that).

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Movies. Star Trek essentially pulled a Flashpoint with a time traveling villain resetting the classic universe in a Flashpoint type way, and new (New52-like) takes on Kirk, Spock, McCoy, etc. played by different younger actors finding their ways in an altered universe. A key planet was destroyed that wasn't before, a romance occurred that didn't before, the events of Star Trek II basically happened backwards, Kirk led a very different life and is only partially the same character, etc.. Those movies do well at the box office.

Actually, that's inaccurate. The Star Trek films of today take place in an alternate, parallel universe. Hence why Leonard Nimoy would be able to guest star as Spock in the newer ones, with full memories of the Star Trek adventures from the 60s TV series. None of those adventures were undone. They just took place in a parallel universe. The New 52 on the other hand said that it was the same universe, but they were rewriting the timeline of that universe.

In fact, Superman movies do that. Batman movies (More successfully) have redone Batman like 4-5 times. Hugh Jackman's last Wolverine movie is out now and then presumably they'll be later movies with at least a slightly different universe and a new Wolverine.

Again, no. All those series of movies take place in PARALLEL and SEPARATE universes from each other. Its not the same universe being overwritten or rewritten. You understand the difference don't you? Henry Cavill's Superman doesn't go up to Ben Affleck's Batman and say "oh, so I heard that Joker guy, who looks surprisingly like Heath Ledger, pitted two boats in Gotham Harbor against one another."

James Bond goes through the same thing as well.

Again, not really, no. Replacing actors is not the same as wiping continuity. And actually even developments from movies decades beforehand have been referenced in more recent Bond films. Skyfall even confirmed that all the Bonds are the same guy.

I think the deal is kind of that if you are just writing a short series of three, or even seven, prose novels, rebooting would be kind of ridiculous- you haven't told the story yet, or will tell it over the course of the novels you still have to write. On the other hand, if you do a comic for 80 years, or a movie series for 40-50 years, that changes things, and it becomes more like long-running movie franchises that need to be at least partially reinvented and modernized every so often.

The comics are ONE, CONTINUOUS story. That's kind of their point and why people look at them with such affection; because those characters are the same characters that have been around for decades. When a writer says that he loves Spider-Man, he's talking about the same Spider-Man whose girfriend Gwen Stacy died falling off the GW Bridge in a story from 1973 and who first fought Venom in ASM #300. When someone says they love any character, they refer to the character who is a product of the developments from their life as told in the story.

So, tell me, if Marvel doesn't feel the need to "reimagine" their characters even though its been 50+ years and we still have the same Spider-Man who debuted in Amazing Fantasy #15, why should DC? The answer is: they shouldn't and its looks like they're reversing that decision.

What about some comics for people who aren't right-wingers?

And what makes you think that Superman as he is only appeals to right-wingers? I am the opposite of a right-winger. I am a bleeding heart liberal in almost every regard and, yes, I like Pre-Flashpoint Superman better. Probably because he's just objectively more emotionally mature.

[The World]

Could someone explain to me how Nuperman was an edgelord? I mean, if I understand the definition correctly, I don't see how he was edgelord material. There a legitimate gripes with the New 52 era Supes. We don't need to assign a buzzword because it sounds like an ultimate burn even though it doesn't apply. But maybe I misunderstand.

I mean there's definitely somethings that come to mind like the aforementioned Parasite thing where he drains Lois and has that darker underthought but at the same time I'm a bit shocked to see the pious, holier than thou nature of the post-crisis fans. Which Superman was it that killed three people at his mercy, developed a split personality, and flew off into space because he thought he was some kind of rabid dog. Then again I've seen people call Silver Age Supes an "Aloof and cold alien God laughing at everyone around him". Maybe edginess is an inherent part of Superman?